[Lord Dave]

If something is not understood, and you don't know how to write in the first place, how are you going to write it down? You are full of brilliance today.

....
So you're telling me that the Oral Torah is never passed verbally and is always passed by writing?

There are no other Jews in the forum, at least not religious ones. So, your point?

http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1928.0
There are 4.  Grow up and learn to read.

It only has glaring questions if you have less than about a 5th grade education.

And yet you fail to answer them. 

As I have said before, I shall say again. The Jews as a people have been around, and will be around, long before and long after you and your ilk have come and gone from the stage of history and been forgotten. Who is the the brainwashed one? The one who thinks he is the master of all he surveys because Richard Dawkins told him he was, or the one who admits that there is a power greater than himself to which he should submit in humility?

Uhhh.... you DO know the definition of brainwashing right?
(PS. Our "ilk" was around before Dawkins existed)

We've been over this. Aside from the health concerns, which are still valid, there is also simply the matter of discipline. Doing it by virtue of the fact that God has asked us to. If you cannot understand that, then how intelligent can you be? Of course, you are an atheist, and therefore deem yourself and your petty wants to be the center of the world. Who is the selfish one?

God didn't ask you to.  Moses brought a scroll he wrote that said what to do.  You have no proof God actually told you to do these things.  In fact, considering God's track record, if Moses wrote the exact opposite of what God said, you'd still get the written and oral torah given to you because God wouldn't do anything about it.

As for my "petty wants".  No, they are not the center of the world.  Why would you assume that?  I think you're projecting.  After all, Jews are morally and culturally superior to everyone else right?



Also:
According to Yakkov, I am currently more powerful than God.  I can tell BILLIONS of people something all at once.  God can only talk to one person at a time.

[Ghost of V]

I thought they mostly practiced Voodooism in Africa?

I thought voodoo was Haitian in origin, but it looks like it has its roots in Africa.

There are actually a few types of Voodoo. I think it originated in West Africa, but there is also Haitian Voodoo.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

Quote from Space Angel: "I live in the US, and although we have our fair share of radicals and extremists here I feel like a good number of North Americans look down on organized religion (although there are compromises like "Faitheism" or like independent spiritual believers who don't follow any one church or set doctrine). 

Do you see expansion of non-Jewish religious institutions around the world as a good thing, or is it doing more harm than good? Like in poorer nations like in Uganda for example where there is a surplus of religions trying to convert the people there to their way of thinking and approaching spirituality; like Roman Catholicism, and the Anglican Church as you mentioned.

Thank you for the article, it seems like an interesting read.

Actually, its not an article, its a 600 page book. But, you are welcome. As far as non-Jewish religions in the world, we are a non-missionary faith, which I personally think is a mistake. I am of the opinion that the world should be Jewish or Noahide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahidism

However, in the absence of these, any decent moral system is better than none at all.

Voodoo does originate in Africa, and yes, it is practiced there, along with a lot of other indigenous religions.

If something is not understood, and you don't know how to write in the first place, how are you going to write it down? You are full of brilliance today.

....
So you're telling me that the Oral Torah is never passed verbally and is always passed by writing?


Actually, no. I am telling you that the Oral Torah was finally written down in the Talmud LONG after it had passed for about 3000 years orally. But, God's words to Moses which were likely not even said in a language that could be understood by the Hebrews who were former slaves without an education were not Torah.

There are no other Jews in the forum, at least not religious ones. So, your point?

http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1928.0
There are 4.  Grow up and learn to read.

There are three, in addition to myself. Two have already told me they are not religious. The fourth has not said whether he agrees with me or not, and in fact, has said nothing at all. You are the schmuck, not me.

It only has glaring questions if you have less than about a 5th grade education.

And yet you fail to answer them.

 I've answered them fine. You are just dense.

As I have said before, I shall say again. The Jews as a people have been around, and will be around, long before and long after you and your ilk have come and gone from the stage of history and been forgotten. Who is the the brainwashed one? The one who thinks he is the master of all he surveys because Richard Dawkins told him he was, or the one who admits that there is a power greater than himself to which he should submit in humility?

Uhhh.... you DO know the definition of brainwashing right?
(PS. Our "ilk" was around before Dawkins existed)

Your ilk is is fairly new. Lets face it, atheism is a fairly new invention.

We've been over this. Aside from the health concerns, which are still valid, there is also simply the matter of discipline. Doing it by virtue of the fact that God has asked us to. If you cannot understand that, then how intelligent can you be? Of course, you are an atheist, and therefore deem yourself and your petty wants to be the center of the world. Who is the selfish one?

God didn't ask you to.  Moses brought a scroll he wrote that said what to do.  You have no proof God actually told you to do these things.  In fact, considering God's track record, if Moses wrote the exact opposite of what God said, you'd still get the written and oral torah given to you because God wouldn't do anything about it.

Well, since Moses and his brother were able to do some rather interesting things in Egypt, I am inclined to trust them. And since my ancestors did hear God (even if they were unsure of what he said), and they did see him, I take Moses' word for it.

As for my "petty wants".  No, they are not the center of the world.  Why would you assume that?  I think you're projecting.  After all, Jews are morally and culturally superior to everyone else right?

I never said that, except to Gary Greene, and I do believe that referring to him specifically, we are. But as for the rest of the world, I never made that claim. I do believe that we were chosen to bring monotheism to the world, and to be a chosen Priesthood to the world. Read Zechariah 8:23 (and the whole chapter for context) for further information about that).

Also:
According to Yakkov, I am currently more powerful than God.  I can tell BILLIONS of people something all at once.  God can only talk to one person at a time.

No you are not more powerful than God. Rather, you're a bit of a schmuck. God COULD talk to to the whole universe at once if he chose to He chose not to. He chose to talk to Moses, and let the people hear his voice, but not necessarily what he said (since it was in possibly another language, or possibly did not concern them, or any number of different variables. Your batting a thousand today, Genius. Keep it up!

VAUX, you are right about the Voodoo.

[beardo]

Why did he choose to talk to just one guy?

[Yonah ben Amittai]

Why did he choose to talk to just one guy?

We've been over that. But, that was the Torah. Throughout or history from Abraham to Malachi, he spoke to far more than just one guy. But with Moses, lets face it: How do you give the Law to 2 million people when it is the length of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible?

[Particle Person]

Why did he choose to talk to just one guy?

We've been over that. But, that was the Torah. Throughout or history from Abraham to Malachi, he spoke to far more than just one guy. But with Moses, lets face it: How do you give the Law to 2 million people when it is the length of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible?

Certainly an insurmountable task for the omnipotent being who created the entire universe.

[Rushy]

Have you read the Torah (the Pentateuch)? Have you even picked up a copy to determine the length of it? Do you think that God was going to recite the whole thing to all 2 million Hebrews sitting there, and expect them to remember it, when they couldn't even write to take notes? Moses was the only one who could write, presumably. God, talk about a college course and a half! For a bunch of slaves that had virtually no education at all, you expect God to sit them all down for forty days and recite the entire Law to them?

Why is god limited to speaking to them at all? An omnipotent being could instill its wishes upon someone without speaking. Even worse, you make it sound like god thought they were all too stupid to talk to. That's pretty low, and something I don't think the old testament god represents, even if he were real, I doubt he would think that. Besides, that sort of logic basically amounts to "anyone that god hasn't talked to is simply too stupid to talk to at all." That would include the entire population of earth, save some few people who either god really did talk to or are just insane.

[Lord Dave]

Why did he choose to talk to just one guy?

We've been over that. But, that was the Torah. Throughout or history from Abraham to Malachi, he spoke to far more than just one guy. But with Moses, lets face it: How do you give the Law to 2 million people when it is the length of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible?

I can give the law in easy to follow ways that require no text to over 2 million people.


See?  Youtube.  No text required, illustrated diagrams, and I can put it in any language I want.

God, however, couldn't invent Youtube.  Hence, I am more powerful than him.  (And so is anyone with an internet connection)

[Vindictus]

You didn't invent Youtube either, Dave.

[Lord Dave]

You didn't invent Youtube either, Dave.

I'm not claiming to have created existence and be an all powerful being.

[DuckDodgers]

Why couldn't God just explain the laws in such a way that there would be no questions to begin with?  He is God after all, the almighty being who can wish living creatures into existence with no more than a thought.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

Why did he choose to talk to just one guy?

We've been over that. But, that was the Torah. Throughout or history from Abraham to Malachi, he spoke to far more than just one guy. But with Moses, lets face it: How do you give the Law to 2 million people when it is the length of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible?

Certainly an insurmountable task for the omnipotent being who created the entire universe.

We've been over this. God keeps things within the realm of the understandable for people at the time.

Have you read the Torah (the Pentateuch)? Have you even picked up a copy to determine the length of it? Do you think that God was going to recite the whole thing to all 2 million Hebrews sitting there, and expect them to remember it, when they couldn't even write to take notes? Moses was the only one who could write, presumably. God, talk about a college course and a half! For a bunch of slaves that had virtually no education at all, you expect God to sit them all down for forty days and recite the entire Law to them?

Why is god limited to speaking to them at all? An omnipotent being could instill its wishes upon someone without speaking. Even worse, you make it sound like god thought they were all too stupid to talk to. That's pretty low, and something I don't think the old testament god represents, even if he were real, I doubt he would think that. Besides, that sort of logic basically amounts to "anyone that god hasn't talked to is simply too stupid to talk to at all." That would include the entire population of earth, save some few people who either god really did talk to or are just insane.

Same answer, see above.

Why did he choose to talk to just one guy?

We've been over that. But, that was the Torah. Throughout or history from Abraham to Malachi, he spoke to far more than just one guy. But with Moses, lets face it: How do you give the Law to 2 million people when it is the length of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible?

I can give the law in easy to follow ways that require no text to over 2 million people.


See?  Youtube.  No text required, illustrated diagrams, and I can put it in any language I want.

God, however, couldn't invent Youtube.  Hence, I am more powerful than him.  (And so is anyone with an internet connection)

Same answer, see above.

Why couldn't God just explain the laws in such a way that there would be no questions to begin with?  He is God after all, the almighty being who can wish living creatures into existence with no more than a thought.

This is at least a legitimate question, unlike the others. All of you are batting a thousand today, in terms of being obtuse, except Duck here, to whom I'll give some credit.

I think the fact that the Law was what was would invariably cause questions in a people. I mean, seriously, if you were a slave mentality person, and you were taught a law that made you a free person, and not only that, a child of God, and a God's Chosen People, wouldn't you have questions? And if God were to just put it there some how, wouldn't that be a bit of a mind-fuck? I think that again, God has to work with what is. He can't completely fuck with people's minds. That would make them other than what they are, ie, NOT human in some sense.

[Rushy]

We've been over this. God keeps things within the realm of the understandable for people at the time.

An omnipotent being is not limited to "things within the realm of the understandable." What you're saying is just a rehash explanation of what you think happened, not a reason why. I find Moses being the only person to hear god just as suspicious as a I find the Mormons thinking their prophet read from golden angel tablets in a hat.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

Its not a question of maturity. Its a question of ability. Moses had the ability. The others didn't. Incidentally, neither did Joseph Smith, with a fifth grade education, if he was lucky. And remember, Moses did NOT have the slave mentality, unlike the others. He had been raised in the Pharaoh's court.

Nor am I suggested that God is limited to anything. I am suggested that he might have found it a good idea not to pull a mindfuck on people.

[Rushy]

Its not a question of maturity. Its a question of ability. Moses had the ability. The others didn't. Incidentally, neither did Joseph Smith, with a fifth grade education, if he was lucky. And remember, Moses did NOT have the slave mentality, unlike the others. He had been raised in the Pharaoh's court.

Nor am I suggested that God is limited to anything. I am suggested that he might have found it a good idea not to pull a mindfuck on people.

But the only real difference between Moses and Joseph Smith is that you, personally, choose to believe Moses but not Joseph Smith. The current Mormon population alone is proof one man can trick an awful lot of people. Scientology shows this as well. It seems your only defense of this is that you can put your nose in the air and say that your god is better than theirs. Who are you to honestly say their prophet is any less prophetic than yours?

[Yonah ben Amittai]

Its not a question of maturity. Its a question of ability. Moses had the ability. The others didn't. Incidentally, neither did Joseph Smith, with a fifth grade education, if he was lucky. And remember, Moses did NOT have the slave mentality, unlike the others. He had been raised in the Pharaoh's court.

Nor am I suggested that God is limited to anything. I am suggested that he might have found it a good idea not to pull a mindfuck on people.

But the only real difference between Moses and Joseph Smith is that you, personally, choose to believe Moses but not Joseph Smith. The current Mormon population alone is proof one man can trick an awful lot of people. Scientology shows this as well. It seems your only defense of this is that you can put your nose in the air and say that your god is better than theirs. Who are you to honestly say their prophet is any less prophetic than yours?

Finally, SOMEONE with a legitimate question! Damn, I thought I was never going to find one, although Space Angel had a few decent ones. I think to answer that question, I would have to point to the accomplishments of said prophet. Now, it is, of course, up to you to accept those or deny them. Of course, with Joseph Smith, you have to admit that he built on work that Moses was responsible for. So he was hardly original. Also, if you read the material he claims to have "received", literarily, it is inferior to even the New Testament, let alone the Hebrew Bible.

But ultimately, only you can make the choice. And your question, at least , is a fair one. I don't have a round answer for you.  The above is the best I can give you. Granted, L. Wrong Hubbard (oh, did I say that?) was simply a blithering idiot, as most people are aware, no matter how much they may disagree with each other. So I won't even go there, but there you are.

[Vindictus]

Tolkien wrote the best pre-history fantasy. The Bible is boring garbage written by hateful idiots, for hateful idiots.

[Yonah ben Amittai]

Except that Tolkien himself subscribed to the Bible, as a devout Latin Mass going Roman Catholic, even after they started celebrating in the vernacular. He would sit, and loudly respond in Latin, given that he hated the vernacular so much. He was always an EXTREMELY hard-core Roman Catholic, his entire life. In fact, he belonged to a literary group that included CS Lewis and several others, all Anglicans and Roman Catholics, all devout, all fantasy writers. It was called the Inklings, as they all had an inkling of what the perfect England would be like. And it always included belief in God.

You people are a hoot. You make comments like that, not realising that by saying things of that nature, you are simply making asses of yourselves. Trust me, these men were far more devout then you will ever comprehend. They would have laughed, and in fact did laugh, at atheism whenever the subject came up. They thought it was a joke, and a bad one at that.

[Vindictus]

Except that Tolkien himself subscribed to the Bible, as a devout Latin Mass going Roman Catholic, even after they started celebrating in the vernacular. He would sit, and loudly respond in Latin, given that he hated the vernacular so much. He was always an EXTREMELY hard-core Roman Catholic, his entire life. In fact, he belonged to a literary group that included CS Lewis and several others, all Anglicans and Roman Catholics, all devout, all fantasy writers. It was called the Inklings, as they all had an inkling of what the perfect England would be like. And it always included belief in God.

You people are a hoot. You make comments like that, not realising that by saying things of that nature, you are simply making asses of yourselves. Trust me, these men were far more devout then you will ever comprehend. They would have laughed, and in fact did laugh, at atheism whenever the subject came up. They thought it was a joke, and a bad one at that.

epic strawman bro

[Yonah ben Amittai]

GRINNING. Not at all. I simply state a fact. You make an Appeal to Authority, which is a logical fallacy in and of itself, and then you choose the wrong authority?! Not too bright. Tolkien would have laughed at you if you had tried to quote him to support your position. And he might have punched you in the nose. Or as least sued your sorry ass self.