341
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Terrible Political Memes
« on: December 17, 2020, 03:38:54 PM »
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342
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Does the Earth rest on a solid foundation or does it float in space?
« on: December 17, 2020, 03:15:13 PM »......the acceleration of UA would appear to decrease in magnitude over time.
Did a little looking and think I understand the concept.
343
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« on: December 16, 2020, 07:32:49 PM »@Tom Bishop
As a gyro of sorts, care to explain how FE theory reconciles the fact that a Foucault Pendulum rotates clockwise in the northern lattitudes, doesn't near the equator, and rotates counterclockwise in the southern lattitudes?
I'm not sure that is true. See our page on that topic: https://wiki.tfes.org/Foucault_Pendulum
Yet when Foucault pendulums are started at various lattitudes repeatedly they tend to rotate not only in the expected direction but also at the expected frequency for the lattitude. If the phenomenon was strictly based on initial conditions, you wouldn't get the repeatablility you see.
The sources in the link say that the repeatability and reliability is false.
I can't argue with the pillar of science Lady Blount.
344
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Does the Earth rest on a solid foundation or does it float in space?
« on: December 16, 2020, 07:22:30 PM »The speed of light is 300,000,000ms-1 so at an acceleration of 9.8ms-2 it takes 300,000,000/9.8 = 30,612,244.9 seconds to reach light speed, c.You made a blunder, in that you fundamentally are misunderstanding how relativity works. Let's take the shape of the Earth out of the equation, and just talk about a rocket accelerating through space at 1G. By your math, after about 8500 years, the people on board that rocket would measure their instantaneous velocity to be 99.99% (with probably a fair few more 9's added on, I'm not going to bother working it out because it's meaningless) of c. Yet, what relativity tells us is that the people on board that ship will measure their velocity to still be 0% of c. Because there is no such thing as a preferred frame of reference, you can always pick a frame where that rocket has an instantaneous velocity of 0m/s while still accelerating at 1G for a completely arbitrary amount of time, and the people in that ship would be feeling that steady 1G acceleration the whole time. The people in the rocket ship from this example would be much like people standing on a UA version of the FE, in that they are moving with the accelerating object. An observer on that FE would never exceed c, nor would the FE, because it can never itself move any faster than 0% of c as measured by an observer standing on that FE (since, you know, it's invariant).
Divide this by 60 to get 510,204.082 minutes.
Divide again by 60 to get 8503.4 hours
Finally, divide for a last time by 24 to get 354.3 days to reach light speed from a standing start at an acceleration of 9.8ms-2 which is less than a year.
This is why UA is nonsense: according to it the Earth reached light speed millenia ago and has continued accelerating at 9.8ms-2 ever since, even though the speed of light cannot be reached by anything with mass.
Please check the arithmetic in case I made a blunder.
And all of that is still glossing over a misapplication of how relativistic velocities are added up, since that's irrelevant to the conversation at hand.
By the same argument wouldn't there always be at least one frame of reference where the object does in fact have a measured velocity and in the case of UA that velocity would increase by a factor of C every year?
345
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« on: December 16, 2020, 07:10:19 PM »@Tom Bishop
As a gyro of sorts, care to explain how FE theory reconciles the fact that a Foucault Pendulum rotates clockwise in the northern lattitudes, doesn't near the equator, and rotates counterclockwise in the southern lattitudes?
I'm not sure that is true. See our page on that topic: https://wiki.tfes.org/Foucault_Pendulum
Yet when Foucault pendulums are started at various lattitudes repeatedly they tend to rotate not only in the expected direction but also at the expected frequency for the lattitude. If the phenomenon was strictly based on initial conditions, you wouldn't get the repeatablility you see.
346
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Gyroscopes - science and applications
« on: December 16, 2020, 06:46:33 PM »
@Tom Bishop
As a gyro of sorts, care to explain how FE theory reconciles the fact that a Foucault Pendulum rotates clockwise in the northern lattitudes, doesn't near the equator, and rotates counterclockwise in the southern lattitudes?
As a gyro of sorts, care to explain how FE theory reconciles the fact that a Foucault Pendulum rotates clockwise in the northern lattitudes, doesn't near the equator, and rotates counterclockwise in the southern lattitudes?
347
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Why the round earth hoax?
« on: December 16, 2020, 05:32:58 PM »
Indeed you do not. Go outside on a starry night with a weighted string and a protractor, and measure the angle between the horizon and the North star (assuming you're in the northern hemisphere). That angle will almost exactly equal your latitude, wherever you are in the northern hemisphere. Check the result on a map, or google maps etc. Ask your self how that exercise would be possible if the earth was flat.
FE will answer that with EA and bendy light.
If you're really keen, jump in a car and drive for a few hours north or south of your starting position. For every 69 miles north or south (ie 60 nautical miles), your measured latitude will change by one degree. Again, ask yourself how that would be possible on a flat earth.
The monopole map is accurate in the N-S direction. Where the monopole map fails is longitudinally the further south you travel from the north pole.
348
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Vendée Globe
« on: December 15, 2020, 07:22:35 PM »Boats have two speeds. Speed thru the water (STW) and speed over the ground (SOG). Professional mariners know the difference and both are important in depending on the situation. The relevant speed here is speed over ground. That can be measured in several different manners, depending upon the situation. If you can't get a fix relative to land because you are too far out, or are maybe in some fog, you have to depend upon GPS. If you don't believe in GPS then you can use celestial navigation for a reasonably accurate position fix. Then its a matter of determining the distance between two fixes and dividing by the amount of time that's passed. Then you have an accurate speed and distance. Aircraft pilots do the same thing. Yes, the airspeed indicator gives just a ball park estimate of the ground speed but gives no indication of the headwind or tail wind component. That can be determined by using accurate fixes relative to the ground, measuring the distance traveled and dividing by the time it took between the fixes. When you compare that with the indicated airspeed you will have an idea of what kind of head or tail wind component is affecting the aircraft's ground speed. Over the ground speeds on both aircraft and boats can vary continuously because of the operational environment. You can accurately make time and distance measurements and the resulting average speed measurement will then be accurate as well.
Was hoping you'd give some input given your familiarity with ocean navigation. I'm absolutely not a mariner in any way shape or form. Simply making some observations.
349
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Vendée Globe
« on: December 15, 2020, 07:20:14 PM »The amusing thing here is, of course, that the boats know their position either via GPS or other satellite-based navigation systems, or they might use more traditional methods such as taking sightings from celestial bodies to calculate latitude. Both of these things require the earth to be globe-shaped, as do the sources that Tom used to support his own arguments around wind and current flows.
Satellite data is extremely important for anyone racing. That data supplies wind speeds all over the ocean and you can watch the boats change course in order to head to the locations of the highest wind velocities. It's been quite fun to track.
350
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Vendée Globe
« on: December 15, 2020, 06:25:07 PM »The formula for speed is Speed = Distance / Time
If the distance is in question, then the speed is also in question.
The speed is measured relative to the water. That's how boats measure speed. They don't get there and then say, "Well, we traveled this far in the past 24 hours so we were going this fast." It's a realtime measurement each vessel has on board. You're grasping trying to explain something that the FE model can't.
Edited to add: I'll also throw this in here. The ACC is 20CM/S. That's about .4 knots. Ocean current velocity would be neglible with regards to the boats' speeds.
https://oceancurrents.rsmas.miami.edu/southern/antarctic-cp.html
351
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Vendée Globe
« on: December 15, 2020, 04:29:26 PM »It is tremendously and abnormally windy in that area. An assessment would need to take that into account.
Why? The wind has nothing to do with the distances being traveled. We aren't talking about the time required to get from point A to point B. We are discussing the distance. As I mentioned in my previous post, the vessels track their speed. The FE speed required is nearly double the measured speed to get from Cape of Good Hope to Cape Leeuwin in the time traveled if the FE distance was actually correct.
Edited to add: The last update shows the leader in 3M seas and 21.8 Knot winds. Though significant, hardly tremendous or abnormal by sailing standards.
352
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Vendée Globe
« on: December 15, 2020, 04:11:03 PM »
Over the next couple weeks we'll be able to track the Tasmania to Cape Horn route.
If you use the length of the route on the FE map and compare it to the already completed track it comes in at roughly 25,000 Km (gave the FE map about 2,500 Km in their favor in my estimation.) Even a straight line course on the FE map would be around 20,000 Km. Don't think many will find it surprising when the actual route comes in at less than 10,000 Km.
If you use the length of the route on the FE map and compare it to the already completed track it comes in at roughly 25,000 Km (gave the FE map about 2,500 Km in their favor in my estimation.) Even a straight line course on the FE map would be around 20,000 Km. Don't think many will find it surprising when the actual route comes in at less than 10,000 Km.
353
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Terrible Political Memes
« on: December 14, 2020, 11:45:21 PM »
354
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Vendée Globe
« on: December 14, 2020, 07:01:48 PM »This is a a great case study to look at issues with the FE map, though there are other variable at play that Tom has pointed out, the differences between distances plotted on globe-based maps and the most prominent FE map are staggering.
Appealing to 'exaggerated distances in the hemisphere' creates another issue, because if the world was indeed flat, map making should be simple --no need for complicated projections that necessarily skew the size, distance, shape, or positions of depicted features.
It would be relatively straightforward for one to compare the progress of the racers and compare their speeds to reported weather conditions to evaluate whether the mean seas of the south could account for all of the apparent changes in speeds interpreted from the FE and globe-based maps.
Tom posted some quotes on the nature of weather systems in this region, from sources he likely views as trustworthy... I wonder what else those sources might say about the causes of those weather systems...
Hover over any vessel on the tracking map and it will tell you their telemetry at that point in time. For the FE model to be accurate if you compare the mostly N-S distance traveled over the first 21 ish days and put that distance over the last 9 days the vessels would have to average something around 30 knots. You can see on the tracker that much of the time the vessels are under 20. Just a quick calc. puts their average a little over 16.
355
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Vendée Globe
« on: December 14, 2020, 06:46:56 PM »
On a flat monopole Earth, it could be possible, but the southern part along the roaring forties would be much longer.
Why are they called the roaring forties and furious fifties?
It's because there are are abnormal winds there, which will necessarily put the water into motion and anything on top of it.
http://www.antarctica.gov.au/magazine/2001-2005/issue-4-spring-2002/feature2/what-is-the-southern-ocean
“ The Southern Ocean is notorious for having some of the strongest winds and largest waves on the planet. ”
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20151009-where-is-the-windiest-place-on-earth
“ There are huge belts of wind caused by the uneven way the Sun heats the Earth's surface. 30° north and south of the equator, the trade winds blow steadily. At 40° lie the prevailing westerlies, and the polar easterlies begin at around 60°.
Ask any round-the-world sailor and they will quickly tell you the stormiest seas, stirred by the strongest winds, are found in the Southern Ocean. These infamously rough latitudes are labelled the "roaring 40s", "furious 50s" and "screaming 60s". ”
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2003JD004179
“ The Southern Ocean is a vital element in the global climate. Its circumpolar current plays a crucial role in the global transport of mass, heat, momentum, and climate signals from one ocean basin to another. Moreover, the Southern Ocean hosts the strongest surface winds of any open ocean area, fostering strong heat, moisture, and momentum exchanges between the ocean and atmosphere. However, the Southern Ocean is tremendously undersurveyed by traditional observation methods because of the remoteness of the area and rough environment, causing the largest data gap of global oceans. ”
https://books.google.com/books?id=MxmUDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PA103#v=onepage&q&f=false
“ The higher speed and greater persistence of the westerlies in the Southern Hemisphere are caused by the difference in the atmospheric pressure patterns as well as its variation from that of the Northern hemisphere. The landmass in the southern hemisphere is comparatively less and average annual pressure decreases much more rapidly on the pole ward side of the high pressure belt. ”
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/print_oo.html
“ the ocean area from about latitude 40 south to the Antarctic Circle has the strongest average winds found anywhere on Earth ”
Great info, Tom. Absolutely meaningless when talking about the fact that the distance covered over the last 9 days is roughly 1/2 the distance required if the route is plotted on the WIKI flat earth map. It's really basic. You can't peel the spherical earth from the north pole onto a flat map and keep the lines of longitutde without vastly distorting the measurable longitudinal distances the further you go into the southern hemisphere.
356
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Vendée Globe
« on: December 14, 2020, 04:12:01 PM »
Been a fun little exercise following this race. The leader passed Cape Leeuwin, Australia looks to be sometime Dec. 13.
Apivia at that time had traveled 24.787 Km. That puts Apivia 7873 Km further than my previous Dec. 2 update slightly past the Cape of Good Hope.
In my previous post, I mapped out on the WIKI FE map how based on the nearly 17,000 Km from France to the Cape would correlate to another 17,000 Km from the Cape to Cape Leeuwin, we can see that the WIKI map is simply flat out wrong, by a significant margin.
Apivia at that time had traveled 24.787 Km. That puts Apivia 7873 Km further than my previous Dec. 2 update slightly past the Cape of Good Hope.
In my previous post, I mapped out on the WIKI FE map how based on the nearly 17,000 Km from France to the Cape would correlate to another 17,000 Km from the Cape to Cape Leeuwin, we can see that the WIKI map is simply flat out wrong, by a significant margin.
357
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Terrible Political Memes
« on: December 12, 2020, 12:23:38 AM »
358
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Covid-19 vaccine two shots
« on: December 11, 2020, 12:08:59 AM »Why arent all the republicans who have contracted covid recently being treated with hydroxychloroquine?
I'll sign up for a vaccine as soon as it's made available to me. They are built on years or scientific progress. Not scared.
Seriously. People act like this is still the 1950s with regards to medicine. This vaccine is years in the making. Covid-19 is not a "new" virus. It just happens to be a differing form which has some more serious side affects and is easily transmitted. I'm glad for all these antivaxers. Makes the immunization that much easier for me to obtain.
359
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Terrible Political Memes
« on: December 09, 2020, 04:42:56 PM »
360
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Why don't we see more solar eclipses?
« on: December 09, 2020, 02:51:40 PM »
Got curious about the upcoming Dec. 14 new moon. It occurs in northern Argentina.
It occurs at Lat. 23.5 S. The sun should be 1.82 deg. north of this.
Above, we see that with a sun moon offset of just under 4 deg. the umbra cast in 2017 extended roughly 36 degrees north of the sun's location. 1st year geometry would tell us that the umbra cast by a 1.82 deg. offset would be less than that 36 degrees. That would mean on Dec. 14 a solar eclipse should occur somewhere between 21.7 deg S and 57.7 deg S, but it doesn't.
It occurs at Lat. 23.5 S. The sun should be 1.82 deg. north of this.
Above, we see that with a sun moon offset of just under 4 deg. the umbra cast in 2017 extended roughly 36 degrees north of the sun's location. 1st year geometry would tell us that the umbra cast by a 1.82 deg. offset would be less than that 36 degrees. That would mean on Dec. 14 a solar eclipse should occur somewhere between 21.7 deg S and 57.7 deg S, but it doesn't.