The Flat Earth Society
The Flat Earth Society => Suggestions & Concerns => Topic started by: Thork on April 14, 2015, 02:22:58 PM
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The 'merger' seems as far away as ever.
Can membership be put back on the table? I received the following tweet today.
Van Evan Fuller @vanfuller55 · Apr 12
@FlatEarthOrg Hello! I've been trying to obtain membership for weeks, but I can't find anyone who can help.
I think a certificate and a card are required. A "card carrying member of the flat earth society" is a popular expression after all.
I'm sure we could find a similar company to café press to send out our membership packs. Thoughts?
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Plenty of sites let you make cards. http://www.plasticcardfactory.com/membership_cards.php
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Apparently that user has been asking Daniel for membership. ::)
Van Evan Fuller @vanfuller55 · 26m26 minutes ago
@FlatEarthOrg Thanks. According to the website, it's $12 for a nifty card and membership certificate, but nobody there responds to me!
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Yes, we can do that.
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Is there a site like zazzle where we can allow members to order their own cards?
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Is there a site like zazzle where we can allow members to order their own cards?
Well if there isn't, you just found yourself a new business opportunity.
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Can membership be put back on the table?
I'm sure it can. Why don't you do some research, come up with a plan, and then ask us for thoughts, instead of expecting us to do all the work?
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Can membership be put back on the table?
I'm sure it can. Why don't you do some research, come up with a plan, and then ask us for thoughts, instead of expecting us to do all the work?
I'd first just like to know we can do this. Last time we tried it got vetoed.
It is very easy for you to say "do some work, do some work" but unlike you, anything I do can easily be ignored and put in the bin. You and pizzaplanet are masters of this forum and are increasingly throwing your weight around. All dissension is met with sarcastic comments, suggestions you don't like ridiculed, criticisms are roundly suppressed and your yapping dog pizaaplanet is always on hand to provide you with an echo and a reacharound. I can't set about executing a plan without you and pizaaplanet saying yes to it, and that's not worth anything without community pressure to ensure you do it.
If we can do memberships and it will be taken seriously and we put a community approved plan in place, I will endeavour to action parts of it. In the mean time can you f-off out of the thread so we can get some opinions?
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I'd first just like to know we can do this. Last time we tried it got vetoed.
No, it didn't. You just said "hey guys let's do membership" and then abandoned the thread without doing anything about it:
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1710.0
This thread seems awfully familiar, now that I re-read that one.
I can't set about executing a plan without you and pizaaplanet saying yes to it
That's where you're wrong. This isn't a dictatorship like the old site; we don't want to get in the way of people making contributions to the society just because they don't have our endorsement. Look at the Reddit page, for example; that was set up without our knowledge, is run completely independently of us, and we still link it from the homepage (after we later found out about it).
On the other hand, we can't give our endorsement to a plan that doesn't exist. If you want me to say I support this idea in principle, then sure, it sounds great. But until I see an actual plan, I'm going to assume you're blowing more hot air.
If we can do memberships and it will be taken seriously and we put a community approved plan in place, I will endeavour to action parts of it. In the mean time can you f-off out of the thread so we can get some opinions?
I'm not sure what you want opinions on that isn't just a restatement of what you said in this thread's previous incarnation (linked above).
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That thread you linked was dated 22 June 2014.
As you well know, you killed that thread and others like it with your talk of reunification that culminated 3 weeks later in the following thread set up by you
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1722.0
And that was because Wilmore showed up a week before that moaning about the wiki page being edited.
Once that occurred, obviously all talk of membership certificates etc ceased as we had no idea what Daniel would have control over. Tom had done some good work to that point looking at certificates, the T-shirt thing died and it took another 6 months to sort, I'm now saying we should sort this too. you seem to have a great memory for what I say but a very poor one for the plans you tried to push through.
And this site is like the old site in as much if you or pizaaplanet are required to change something and you don't want to ... it ends there. So its important not to rush off and do things and expect you to implement them.
So again, lets see what other people think membership should be ... free?, includes a pack of things you pay for?, what might go into such a pack?, anonymous?, public listing?, wording of certificates?, etc before I rush off having made these decisions on behalf of everyone only to get told it aint happening cos people object.
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That thread you linked was dated 22 June 2014.
As you well know, you killed that thread and others like it with your talk of reunification that culminated 3 weeks later in the following thread set up by you
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1722.0
And that was because Wilmore showed up a week before that moaning about the wiki page being edited.
Once that occurred, obviously all talk of membership certificates etc ceased as we had no idea what Daniel would have control over. Tom had done some good work to that point looking at certificates, the T-shirt thing died and it took another 6 months to sort, I'm now saying we should sort this too. you seem to have a great memory for what I say but a very poor one for the plans you tried to push through.
In the interest of keeping this thread on topic, I'd ask you not to throw around unfounded accusations. It was your choice not to work towards improving this site back in July, something which might have influenced the forum's members (remember, we put this to a vote; I wasn't "pushing" anything) towards your point of view by demonstrating that we are capable of functioning independently as a society, rather than just as a forum. We did nothing to stop you.
Rather than acting like we're blocking your every contribution, why not try actually making a contribution and seeing if it gets blocked?
And this site is like the old site in as much if you or pizaaplanet are required to change something and you don't want to ... it ends there. So its important not to rush off and do things and expect you to implement them.
No, please stop presenting your blatantly false opinion as fact. Both myself and pizaaplanet have made it clear that we are here to serve the community, not to make decisions for them. That's why every major decision (bar one that I can recall) affecting this site has been put to a vote, and we would do the same in the absence of broad agreement here.
In order to vote on something, though, you first need a proposal to consider. It doesn't take all that much time to put together a brief plan, and if the community doesn't like it, we (meaning the community, not "myself and pizaaplanet") are much more likely to amend than veto it. If you're worried about your time being wasted, would it be of any comfort to know that I have spent my own time on several things we ended up not using, or getting rid of later?
So again, lets see what other people think membership should be ... free?, includes a pack of things you pay for?, what might go into such a pack?, anonymous?, public listing?, wording of certificates?, etc before I rush off having made these decisions on behalf of everyone only to get told it aint happening cos people object.
We've already seen what other people think last June. I have no idea why you think starting again from scratch is going to produce different results. There's only so long you can talk about the same issue over and over before you need to just do something about it.
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Is any progress being made on this?
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Yeah, lets get on with it.
So people need to vote on format. Answer yes or no for each.
1) Are we going to offer membership/fellowship?
2) Is membership free? If yes, then extra goodies won't be sent.
3) Do we want a downloadable certificate form (.pdf) for people who sign up? If yes, we'll have to agree on text which took ages last time.
4) Will we keep a public register? It will of course look very bare at first if we do.
5) Are there any privileges of membership? Access to a members forum for example?
Assuming we get a reasonable number of responses and its positive, we can make a thread for each thing that needs to get done (eg design the certificate).
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I'm certainly in favor of official membership. And I believe that any member should be willing to sacrifice a small amount of money to achieve this.
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I say that membership should cost some small amount of money, and a member will receive:
- 1 Official Membership Card
- 1 Printed letter officiating them into the society
- 1 Certificate of Membership
- 1 Cardboard Certificate Holder
- Access to the Zetetic Council Forums with voting privileges
- Name will go onto a public roster. But no anonymous option. Flat Earthers should not be ashamed of who they are.
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Will you be putting your real name on the register, Tom?
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I dont think you should require people to make their name public. People may want to remain anonymous for reasons other than shame.
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I think we can agree on that one quite quick. It is a deterrent. If we do membership, then we want lots of members. I fell like this about cost as well. I'd like to see a zero cost membership with downloadable certificate, and then you can buy an optional pack of goodies from the shop if you like. My 2 cents.
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I think we can agree on that one quite quick. It is a deterrent. If we do membership, then we want lots of members. I fell like this about cost as well. I'd like to see a zero cost membership with downloadable certificate, and then you can buy an optional pack of goodies from the shop if you like. My 2 cents.
I agree with Thonk in this instance.
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We can do a zero cost membership with an option to get the physical products mailed for a fee. I dont see any problem with that.
For the public roster, users should at least have to make their user name public. I don't like the long list of 'Anonymous' members on the other site. Can we compromise on public user names?
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Do we have to have names at all. Can't we have '3402 members and counting'? If we allow people to put in names of any sort we are going to end up with "you are all idiots" and "It's flat morans" etc.
the national trust have members but I can't view their membership list.
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/membership/
Just because Daniel made a list, doesn't mean we have to follow suit by making ours publically available. Let's just fill membership with as many free perks as possible so you feel like a member. I think that should include a quarterly newsletter/eshot every now and again, but of course it does mean someone has to write one. Could be an issue but would remind people to come back and visit us.
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Do we have to have names at all. Can't we have '3402 members and counting'? If we allow people to put in names of any sort we are going to end up with "you are all idiots" and "It's flat morans" etc.
the national trust have members but I can't view their membership list.
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/membership/
Just because Daniel made a list, doesn't mean we have to follow suit by making ours publically available. Let's just fill membership with as many free perks as possible so you feel like a member. I think that should include a quarterly newsletter/eshot every now and again, but of course it does mean someone has to write one. Could be an issue but would remind people to come back and visit us.
After some thought, I agree. We don't need a list. We can just have a count for now.
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If we allow people to put in names of any sort we are going to end up with "you are all idiots" and "It's flat morans" etc.
I'm not saying I'm advocating for a list (frankly, I don't mind either way), but I just wanted to point out that joke names can be easily sorted out by just having someone approve names before they appear on the list.
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I know this is quite obviously not my area of expertise, but perhaps the person who donates more gets higher on this list? I mean, if someone pays $150 to say "you suck", would you care too much?
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I know this is quite obviously not my area of expertise, but perhaps the person who donates more gets higher on this list? I mean, if someone pays $150 to say "you suck", would you care too much?
I see where you're coming from, but I'd be against that. We're not for profit, and I'd hate to be pressuring people to give more
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If we're accepting donations (as opposed to just covering the cost of whatever we'd be sending the members' way), we'd have to agree on where said donations go before we discuss anything else.
Assuming Parsifal hasn't changed his mind on the matter, the administration of this site is strongly opposed to monetising this website in any way. We're not in this for profit.
I wouldn't personally be opposed to transferring all proceeds to a worthwhile charity. Arguably, this would lead to us doing The Right Thing™, and it could potentially help PR. That said, it's Parsifal who owns the site, not me, so his word is more important here than mine by far.
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My view is that proceeds from any donations, if they are accepted, should go towards day-to-day expenses of the society (as opposed to the website, which is run on a not-for-profit basis on behalf of the society). The way this would ideally work is that there would be a treasurer who chooses how to spend the money and is responsible to the society's membership.
That said, given that there is currently nobody (to my knowledge) doing any work for the society which involves expenses of any kind, pizaaplanet's suggestion of donating all proceeds to charity seems like the least bad option, if we are going to accept donations. Ideally, though, I'd like to see a membership model where any costs simply cover the membership pack, and donations treated as a separate issue (outside this thread).
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I know this is quite obviously not my area of expertise, but perhaps the person who donates more gets higher on this list? I mean, if someone pays $150 to say "you suck", would you care too much?
I see where you're coming from, but I'd be against that. We're not for profit, and I'd hate to be pressuring people to give more
Perhaps we could offer a free membership level, and then offer some membership packages with an increasing amount of swag and perks at higher price points with some built-in profit. It could be like a kickstarter.
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I know this is quite obviously not my area of expertise, but perhaps the person who donates more gets higher on this list? I mean, if someone pays $150 to say "you suck", would you care too much?
I see where you're coming from, but I'd be against that. We're not for profit, and I'd hate to be pressuring people to give more
Perhaps we could offer a free membership level, and then offer some membership packages with an increasing amount of swag and perks at higher price points with some built-in profit. It could be like a kickstarter.
What would we do with the money?
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I know this is quite obviously not my area of expertise, but perhaps the person who donates more gets higher on this list? I mean, if someone pays $150 to say "you suck", would you care too much?
I see where you're coming from, but I'd be against that. We're not for profit, and I'd hate to be pressuring people to give more
Perhaps we could offer a free membership level, and then offer some membership packages with an increasing amount of swag and perks at higher price points with some built-in profit. It could be like a kickstarter.
What would we do with the money?
It likely won't be a lot of money. We can use it to fund equipment costs for any telescope, laser or high altitude air balloon experiments we want to try through the year. Maybe we can print and pass out educational materials about the flat earth to school children, inciting the media to do a news story over the controversy. There are a lot of things we can do if we had a small equipment and materials income.
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What CMS system is the front page of the site using? Maybe we can find a wordpress plugin for it for membership signups.
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What CMS system is the front page of the site using? Maybe we can find a wordpress plugin for it for membership signups.
We're not using a CMS. The front page was adapted to a custom PHP site by pizaaplanet from our theme for BlazeBlogger, the CMS we used to use.
How we manage membership from a technical point of view would need to depend on whether or not we're accepting money for it. If we are, then doing e-commerce ourselves really isn't a beast I'd like to tackle; we should find a third-party provider to handle the transaction. If we aren't, then it should be fairly straightforward to design a form that people can submit to sign up.
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Are there any objections to a kickstarter-type method of membership packages?
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Are there any objections to a kickstarter-type method of membership packages?
I believe the success and support of such a project is highly dependent on who is administering the operation. But I like the idea of getting more FES swag.
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Perhaps we should just start with the free version and do paid membership packages later when we find a good vendor that can send the items direct.
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Is any progress being made on this?
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I am unable to find an appropriate vendor willing to send off custom orders to members.
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Are there any opposed to starting with free membership until suitable vendors can be found?
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Not sure what the point is though. They can register here already. They can follow us on Twitter or Facebook. What does registering as a member do for them?
Maybe we could just allow a change to user profiles for the time being. If you want to be an official member, you get a little badge for your profile or something until we can sort out certificates etc. Then when we are organised, we can send out messages or emails inviting people to download their certificate or whatever.
Is work for the admins though. :-\
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Not sure what the point is though. They can register here already. They can follow us on Twitter or Facebook. What does registering as a member do for them?
Maybe we could just allow a change to user profiles for the time being. If you want to be an official member, you get a little badge for your profile or something until we can sort out certificates etc. Then when we are organised, we can send out messages or emails inviting people to download their certificate or whatever.
Is work for the admins though. :-\
They will be able to vote in the Zetetic Council forums and will self motivate themselves to take the reigns of the society:
I've been kicking ideas around in my head for how we can make the Zetetic Council better. I had a few ideas. My conclusion is as follows:
1. We open up Flat Earth Society membership to all who want it. As a member of the Flat Earth Society your name goes onto a roster, you agree to fight globularist heresy in all its forms, and you will receive a certificate reflecting this (virtual or printed TBD).
2. As a official member of the Flat Earth Society you receive standing recognition and access to in the Zetetic Council Board
3. Zeteic Council members are elected and are tasked with creating and putting proposals to a vote. Zetetic Council members provide organizational guidance, but are not considered the workhorses.
4. Official members of the Flat Earth Society vote and comment on the proposals, and in doing so self motivate themselves to begin the project and see it to completion.
We may want to rename the Zetetic Council Board to another name, but I believe this idea has a lot of merit. I welcome comments on this idea.
Public comments may go here (http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1715.msg55761#msg55761).
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Are there any others opposed?
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I'm not opposed, but I do think point 4. of your proposal needs some thought. I'm not convinced that people will feel any more engaged than they are right now. We obviously have a few very involved individuals here, but I don't think it's enough to warrant this whole structure of proposals and voting.
Essentially, I do not see the merit of having a ZC at all if they're not expected to do work.
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All members should be expected and encouraged to contribute in some way, not only 5 elected ones. By designing the membership around community collaboration, it fosters camaraderie.
Do you really want to join a Flat Earth Society and just receive a thank you and a certificate, hearing nothing more, or do you want to join a Flat Earth Society which involves you in community projects and activities which furthers the theory and movement?
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Do you really want to be part of a Zetetic Council, receive two blue squares, hearing nothing more, or do you want to be part of a Zetetic Council which actually gets something done?
Your idea is ok in theory, but we've already observed the levels of involvement throughout our userbase. Ignoring that in our considerations is a recipe for failure.
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Why should only 5 members of hundreds of members be expected to contribute to the movement?
This is supposed to be a society, an "organization or club formed for a particular purpose or activity" (Google (https://www.google.com/#q=define+society)). The idea that only a small group of people should be responsible for pushing the movement forward while the rest do nothing is antithetical to the concept.
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I agree with Tom. You (PP) are making it out that he and the rest do nothing, when we are all sitting around doing nothing and Tom is at least trying to get us to discuss something. Why do you hate yourself so much?
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You (PP) are making it out that he and the rest do nothing, when we are all sitting around doing nothing and Tom is at least trying to get us to discuss something.
I take an issue with you suggesting that I (together with a number of other involved members who would fall under "we all") do nothing. If you'd like to join us in maintaining the site's codebase, social media, the Wiki, the Library, the store, or, you know, anything at all, then please get in touch and get involved. Until then, I'd like to ask that you keep your insults to yourself and let those who actually put something into this effort have a conversation about how to best approach this.
I take your response as a sign that you don't quite understand what's going on around here, and so I'm going to disregard your further remarks on the matter.
Why should only 5 members of hundreds of members be expected to contribute to the movement?
I never said they should - you're trying to respond to a proposal that no one actually brought up.
I said that you shouldn't have an explicit clause of "we're not supposed to do work". To make your words relevant: Why should 5 members of hundreds be expected to not contribute?
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Where did I suggest that council members would not contribute? I simply said that they would not be the expected workhorses of any project the society decides to start.
Right now there is an air of assumption that the society is not going anywhere because the Zetetic Council is not out there making documentaries, engaging the world in public debates, and whatever. As if I have the resources to do all of that on my own. Why should the future of the society be put solely on me?
For the society to move forward we need interest and participation of a large group of people, and tying membership into active participation with society activities is the way to do it.
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Where did I suggest that council members would not contribute? I simply said that they would not be the expected workhorses of any project the society decides to start.
Okay, I guess that's fair enough. I'm still not clear why that would need to be said explicitly. Is there anyone that's "expected" to be the workhorses?
Right now there is an air of assumption that the society is not going anywhere because the Zetetic Council is not out there making documentaries, engaging the world in public debates, and whatever.
I don't think that's quite true. No one expects you to engage in public debates or making documentaries, especially not all by yourself. Reaching out to the media, however, was something we explicitly agreed would be the ZC's job, at least as far as initiating the contact goes. Even the society relaunch press release (a 1-page document, 2 pages at best) has never been completed, despite numerous approaches undertaken. The same goes for the Constitution. Or the terms of how ZC elections would work in the future. Or at least re-electing the 3 ZCs that either resigned or have gone completely inactive. The problem isn't that the ZC isn't making documentaries. The problem is that it does hardly anything at all.
Why should the future of the society be put solely on me?
It shouldn't, it isn't, and you know it. Different people within the Society have assumed different roles. Some of them do their jobs, others don't. I don't understand why the ZC should be allowed to accept a job and then add a clause that says they don't actually have to do it.
For the society to move forward we need interest and participation of a large group of people, and tying membership into active participation with society activities is the way to do it.
I don't see how or why. You keep saying that this is the case, but you're not backing it up in any way.
The people who want to get involved are already getting involved. Thork was annoyed with our inactive Twitter, so he messages us and now he's in charge of it. Blanko wanted a better design for our homepage, so he made it and now it's there. You wanted an annotated ENaG and you've successfully started it, together with others.
What benefits does formal membership bring us in this area?
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The problem with the ZC was that it was difficult to get all 5 members available to discuss or vote on issues and discussions stagnated. My solution solves that issue. See Tsunami's post on the subject:
I officially endorse Tom's idea.
The big problem with the ZC, in my experience with it, is that when ideas are brought up all 5 members are never available to discuss it or vote on it, and discussions consistently stagnate. Then the people who were active get tired of yelling into a void and disappear for months and the cycle continues.
If Tom's plan is implemented (presumably after reunification), I see several things happening. First, the ZC process becomes a lot more democratic. If you care enough to be reading this, you would probably be able to vote under Tom's idea. I like that. The regulars here tend to have good ideas. With careful moderation of the ZC board (I would propose, albeit without thinking about the idea too hard, that the ZC members be able to moderate the board), it could be a great place for the society and Flat Earth Theory to prosper. It would fix the stagnation problem, too, because discussion of the ideas would not be limited to ZC members.
The current ZC is an ineffective organization. I think Tom's proposal would fix the main reasons that's the case.
The people who want to get involved are already getting involved. Thork was annoyed with our inactive Twitter, so he messages us and now he's in charge of it. Blanko wanted a better design for our homepage, so he made it and now it's there. You wanted an annotated ENaG and you've successfully started it, together with others.
What benefits does formal membership bring us in this area?
If the entire community was involved in voting and discussion, we might have a better site. I was not involved in the homepage. I have no idea what you or Blanko are doing with the site. Maybe if the community was involved, and everything was up for discussion, you would get offers to create graphics, articles, videos, SEO promotion, and so on.
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Yes, but that's entirely unrealistic. Writing a document that says "people will be involved from now on" won't actually do anything.
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People will join the Flat Earth Society to get involved in the Flat Earth activities and the movement. That is what membership will be advertised as, and the main purpose of signing up. That is, you know, what a normal club or society does with its members.
Your position seems to be that membership should be designed solely a novelty, as it is on the .org website, a mechanism for people to sign up, get a certificate and brag that they are part of the Flat Earth Society.
If they want to sign up as a novelty under my plan, fine, but under this vision the purpose of membership would not be merely to have your name on a roster somewhere, and we should not be promoting that type of pathetic society.
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No, my position has already been stated. You don't need to think and wonder what, oh what, it might be.
I'm not opposed, but I do think point 4. of your proposal needs some thought.
Stating over and over that you're going to advertise membership as something or another will not change the reality of our userbase. If you're not interested in solving that problem, or even discussing it, just say so. Restating the same flawed idea over and over won't suddenly make the flaw go away.
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I just noticed that I missed this point:
I have no idea what you or Blanko are doing with the site. Maybe if the community was involved, and everything was up for discussion, you would get offers to create graphics, articles, videos, SEO promotion, and so on.
I'm sorry, boo, but you ignoring S&C threads (http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=2606.0) is a problem with you, not others. The community was involved, but you chose to drop a single off-topic post instead of contributing. Now you're acting like that's somehow our fault for carrying on the work despite you not giving a damn.
Oh, and guess what, we did get offers to create graphics and articles. That's why we have them now. Again, no thanks to a magical membership system.
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A forum for Suggestions and Concerns merely asks the user to submit a suggestion or concern. This is a wholly different matter than asking the user to contribute and engage in Flat Earth activities and the movement. We are not doing that at all. The community giving you a suggestion on a forum is hardly community participation.
A forum for "Suggestions and Concerns" sends me the message that I should go in and make a post "how about making some videos??" for whoever maintains the website to work on. A society membership which asks members to begin projects and decide on a direction for the movement on an activities forum is a fundamentally different request of the user.
The problem is not lack of effort by a community. The problem is a lack of organization and communication.
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You know what? This isn't worth my time. You're not answering my questions, and you're clearly not interested in actually getting anywhere here.
Go ahead and roll out your Zetetic Council 3.0. Show us how it's done. The others will hopefully focus on something productive in the meantime.
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Your question was answered. People are not contributing because there is no originizational structure for them to do so. We do not ask any involvement at all from our users. There are two elements which will make this a success:
1. Membership will be advertised as a way to become involved with society projects and society affairs. The wording on the main site should invoke the understanding that they are signing up to get involved.
2. You can't expect people to take control of the society when it is controlled by an oligarchy. If the society is democratically controlled there are no limits to the success of the society. It simply doesn't matter if I think that I would rather write a book than send a press release announcing that we are a "competing" Flat Earth Society. The society isn't hung up on me.
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If you say so. I'll believe it when I see it.
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Are there any other dissenters?
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If there are any moderators who could assist in this matter please email me at vstapleton82@yahoo.com. we've been having quite a go on Facebook as of late. I recently started the official flat-earth Indiana page as suggested by Darryel Marble he and a friend around the Washington Flat Earth page. anyhow I'm going to risk it and go ahead and send this $12 money order to the UK to the PO Box I found in a press release from 2009. I've been trying to get in contact with a guy for about a year now, the name is Daniel hopefully He can get me a certificate and card. I if you guys are now offering this service please let me know and is anybody here with the Zetetic Council?
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If there are any moderators who could assist in this matter please email me at vstapleton82@yahoo.com. we've been having quite a go on Facebook as of late. I recently started the official flat-earth Indiana page as suggested by Darryel Marble he and a friend around the Washington Flat Earth page. anyhow I'm going to risk it and go ahead and send this $12 money order to the UK to the PO Box I found in a press release from 2009. I've been trying to get in contact with a guy for about a year now, the name is Daniel hopefully He can get me a certificate and card. I if you guys are now offering this service please let me know and is anybody here with the Zetetic Council?
Definitely don't send any money to them...