[J-Man]

GPS works just fine within the High Frequency band. All planes are equipped with antenna for such GPS. They call it, over the horizon, in short meaning waaay long distance, towers can't reach, no such thing as satellites and we must bounce the digital packets off the ionosphere or dome. As I said you need communication to a home base receiver which its position is exact and you can find anything else.

The coronal mass ejections of last month had little effect. Carry on, all scary tactics for MORE MONEY please for our demonic scientist freeks.

[mtnman]

GPS works just fine within the High Frequency band. All planes are equipped with antenna for such GPS. They call it, over the horizon, in short meaning waaay long distance, towers can't reach, no such thing as satellites and we must bounce the digital packets off the ionosphere or dome. As I said you need communication to a home base receiver which its position is exact and you can find anything else.

JMan doubling down on crazy. Can radio frequencies be bounced off the ionosphere? Yes. But it is an area of the atmosphere that ranges from 60 km (37 mi) to 1,000 km (620 mi). It's not an exact point that you reflect a signal from, you know, like a dome.

GPS works using mathematical calculations depending on exact timing of the signals and the distance they travel. (They being plural since is requires multiple satellite signals).

It couldn't possibly work by bouncing signals from balloons and base stations off random layers of the atmosphere.

You're really not helping your cause by just making up nonsense and posting it.

But in retrospect, the topic of the post was "How does FE think that GPS works?", so I guess you've answered that question.

[J-Man]

GPS works just fine within the High Frequency band. All planes are equipped with antenna for such GPS. They call it, over the horizon, in short meaning waaay long distance, towers can't reach, no such thing as satellites and we must bounce the digital packets off the ionosphere or dome. As I said you need communication to a home base receiver which its position is exact and you can find anything else.

JMan doubling down on crazy. Can radio frequencies be bounced off the ionosphere? Yes. But it is an area of the atmosphere that ranges from 60 km (37 mi) to 1,000 km (620 mi). It's not an exact point that you reflect a signal from, you know, like a dome.

GPS works using mathematical calculations depending on exact timing of the signals and the distance they travel. (They being plural since is requires multiple satellite signals).

It couldn't possibly work by bouncing signals from balloons and base stations off random layers of the atmosphere.

You're really not helping your cause by just making up nonsense and posting it.

But in retrospect, the topic of the post was "How does FE think that GPS works?", so I guess you've answered that question.

Not so fast Mr. Deceiver

"Before the first communications satellites were launched in the 1960s, high-frequency (HF) radio was the principal means to communicate beyond the horizon."

"However, we are seeing a resurgence in HF radio, in part because new automatic link establishment (ALE) protocols now make HF a reliable, low-cost alternative to satellite."

http://urgentcomm.com/mobile_voice/mag/hf-radio-use-201103

Every plane today is equipped with HF for over the horizon GPS, bypassing satellites. So the truth is out, satellites aren't and were never needed, therefore they are a figment of your imagination.

"Once pushed aside by satellite communications, this radio type still is relevant for over-the-horizon communications."

[mtnman]

Can radio frequencies be bounced off the ionosphere? Yes.

high-frequency (HF) radio was the principal means to communicate beyond the horizon.

That's a stunning argument to come back and say radio frequencies can bounce off the atmosphere after I claimed radio frequencies can bounce off the atmosphere. Maybe you didn't read the post.

Please cite your source for this claim:

Every plane today is equipped with HF for over the horizon GPS, bypassing satellites.

Planes may have HF radios, wouldn't surprise me. If they do, they are not used for GPS. Because "over the horizon GPS" isn't a thing.

[J-Man]

Man of the mountain, me thinks you're a shill for the deceiver man on the mountain.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5210024/?reload=true

Adaptive beamforming for high-frequency over-the-horizon passive radar

Read all about it, there is tons of this tech out there, you don't need sats as I've been saying for weeks.

"GPS data measured on-board the cooperative aircraft provided accurate ground truth of the flight path, enabling target profiles in bi-static range, Doppler frequency and direction-of-arrival (azimuth/elevation) to be calculated as a function of time."

[J-Man]

Here's a great one, shows HF being bounced off dome.

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2016/04/long-range-surveillance-radar.html

Navy asks Raytheon to operate and maintain ROTHR over-the-horizon surveillance radar

I'm really not sure what more there is to prove. Raytheon just showed you the dome God and I speak of and we all know GPS with line of sight is a no brainer with towers, balloons, repeaters and base stations. Why do you tangle with one of Gods ass kickin cowboys?

[mtnman]

Man of the mountain, me thinks you're a shill for the deceiver man on the mountain.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5210024/?reload=true

Adaptive beamforming for high-frequency over-the-horizon passive radar

Read all about it, there is tons of this tech out there, you don't need sats as I've been saying for weeks.

"GPS data measured on-board the cooperative aircraft provided accurate ground truth of the flight path, enabling target profiles in bi-static range, Doppler frequency and direction-of-arrival (azimuth/elevation) to be calculated as a function of time."

Rolling on the floor laughing. Sure, post more articles about over the horizon radar, that don't have anything to do with how GPS works.

This is rich. Did you read that article and understand it? You really shouldn't post stuff that you don't understand.

The article says they are testing the use of high frequency radio waves to detect targets over the horizon.

Over the horizon means targets that don't have line of sight to their radar emitter because of the curvature of the Earth.

When it says "GPS data measured on-board" it means that they verified the test results using GPS data on board the plane.

(Had to re-post this, had quoted the wrong post)

[3DGeek]

Here's a great one, shows HF being bounced off dome.

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2016/04/long-range-surveillance-radar.html

Navy asks Raytheon to operate and maintain ROTHR over-the-horizon surveillance radar

I'm really not sure what more there is to prove. Raytheon just showed you the dome God and I speak of and we all know GPS with line of sight is a no brainer with towers, balloons, repeaters and base stations. Why do you tangle with one of Gods ass kickin cowboys?

Good grief, this is like explaining it to a child!

GPS works by measuring the time delay between three or more radio sources that are widely separated.  By seeing how much delay you get from each one, and by knowing the speed of light - you can calculate your distance from all three sources...and then you know where you are.

BUT if you were using a signal bounced off of the ionosphere - you'd only know the distance from the source to the ionosphere plus the distance from the ionosphere to you.   Trouble with that is that you don't know how high the ionosphere is...at least not to within a couple of feet.

So a system such as you describe might be enough to keep an airplane within a few kilometers of it's route - but it's not going to be anywhere close to enough to allow Google Maps to tell which lane of traffic you're in...or even which road you're on.

So for 100% sure, GPS cannot be faked by bouncing a signal off of the ionosphere.

Some others have claimed it could be done with radio transmitters on top of tall towers - but that could only possibly work if you have at least three towers within line-of-sight of where you are.

GPS was designed to be used to launch things like cruise missiles and ICBM's into enemy territory - do you think that the Iraquis and Afghanis were helpfully building towers every few miles across their entire countries to help us to do that?

What's VERY interesting about your claims though is that they talk about all of these systems for over-the-horizon transmissions...but I was under the impression that you believe that the Earth is Flat?   So why would any of that be needed in the first place?

Sorry - but you're WRONG - and you're trying to use RET to prove that you're right - which is pretty silly.

[TomInAustin]

Here's a great one, shows HF being bounced off dome.

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2016/04/long-range-surveillance-radar.html

Navy asks Raytheon to operate and maintain ROTHR over-the-horizon surveillance radar

I'm really not sure what more there is to prove. Raytheon just showed you the dome God and I speak of and we all know GPS with line of sight is a no brainer with towers, balloons, repeaters and base stations. Why do you tangle with one of Gods ass kickin cowboys?

Good grief, this is like explaining it to a child!

GPS works by measuring the time delay between three or more radio sources that are widely separated.  By seeing how much delay you get from each one, and by knowing the speed of light - you can calculate your distance from all three sources...and then you know where you are.

BUT if you were using a signal bounced off of the ionosphere - you'd only know the distance from the source to the ionosphere plus the distance from the ionosphere to you.   Trouble with that is that you don't know how high the ionosphere is...at least not to within a couple of feet.

So a system such as you describe might be enough to keep an airplane within a few kilometers of it's route - but it's not going to be anywhere close to enough to allow Google Maps to tell which lane of traffic you're in...or even which road you're on.

So for 100% sure, GPS cannot be faked by bouncing a signal off of the ionosphere.

Some others have claimed it could be done with radio transmitters on top of tall towers - but that could only possibly work if you have at least three towers within line-of-sight of where you are.

GPS was designed to be used to launch things like cruise missiles and ICBM's into enemy territory - do you think that the Iraquis and Afghanis were helpfully building towers every few miles across their entire countries to help us to do that?

What's VERY interesting about your claims though is that they talk about all of these systems for over-the-horizon transmissions...but I was under the impression that you believe that the Earth is Flat?   So why would any of that be needed in the first place?

Sorry - but you're WRONG - and you're trying to use RET to prove that you're right - which is pretty silly.

So to recap, J-man says it's either god bounces off of the dome or balloons and  Junker says to read the Wiki for GPS information where none exists.

Very informative.

[3DGeek]

So to recap, J-man says it's either god bounces off of the dome or balloons and  Junker says to read the Wiki for GPS information where none exists.

Very informative.

Yep.  If you search the Wiki for "GPS" you get exactly one page: https://wiki.tfes.org/Space_Travel - which contains four broken links and nothing else.

If there was just one GPS system and it only worked in continental USA, then towers and balloons and such might work - but there are AT LEAST four different GPS-like systems out there (US, Russian, Chinese and European) and all four of them have world-wide coverage.  Do you see Chinese and Russian navigational towers studding the landscape in the USA?   Are there thousands of balloons from all four nations drifting languidly across our skies?

The "bouncing off of the ionosphere" approach cannot work for precision better than a few kilometers - and all four systems that we know of are accurate to within ten meters or so most of the time.

So I guess the Earth must be round.

[mtnman]

So to recap, J-man says it's either god bounces off of the dome or balloons and  Junker says to read the Wiki for GPS information where none exists.

Very informative.

Yep.  If you search the Wiki for "GPS" you get exactly one page: https://wiki.tfes.org/Space_Travel - which contains four broken links and nothing else.

If there was just one GPS system and it only worked in continental USA, then towers and balloons and such might work - but there are AT LEAST four different GPS-like systems out there (US, Russian, Chinese and European) and all four of them have world-wide coverage.  Do you see Chinese and Russian navigational towers studding the landscape in the USA?   Are there thousands of balloons from all four nations drifting languidly across our skies?

The "bouncing off of the ionosphere" approach cannot work for precision better than a few kilometers - and all four systems that we know of are accurate to within ten meters or so most of the time.

So I guess the Earth must be round.

Yes. Isn't it amazing and sad the lengths people stretch their imagination in order to fold everything into their FE belief system?

[J-Man]

So to recap, J-man says it's either god bounces off of the dome or balloons and  Junker says to read the Wiki for GPS information where none exists.

Very informative.

Yep.  If you search the Wiki for "GPS" you get exactly one page: https://wiki.tfes.org/Space_Travel - which contains four broken links and nothing else.

If there was just one GPS system and it only worked in continental USA, then towers and balloons and such might work - but there are AT LEAST four different GPS-like systems out there (US, Russian, Chinese and European) and all four of them have world-wide coverage.  Do you see Chinese and Russian navigational towers studding the landscape in the USA?   Are there thousands of balloons from all four nations drifting languidly across our skies?

The "bouncing off of the ionosphere" approach cannot work for precision better than a few kilometers - and all four systems that we know of are accurate to within ten meters or so most of the time.

So I guess the Earth must be round.

qeek you should stop the deceit or maybe it's just ignorance? TV GPS radar all work off High Frequency waves now. You don't need satellites for Skywave, Groundwave or Line of Sight transmissions. Put the Kool-aid down and come join us in this brave new world that was discovered in 1921....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave

"In radio communication, skywave or skip refers to the propagation of radio waves reflected or refracted back toward Earth from the ionosphere, an electrically charged layer of the upper atmosphere. Since it is not limited by the curvature of the Earth, skywave propagation can be used to communicate beyond the horizon, at intercontinental distances."

"E-skip is a notable exception, where VHF signals including FM broadcast and VHF TV signals are frequently reflected to the Earth during late Spring and early Summer."

https://www.accessengineeringlibrary.com/browse/high-frequency-over-the-horizon-radar-fundamental-principles-signal-processing-and-practical-applications

High Frequency Over-the-Horizon Radar: Fundamental Principles, Signal Processing, and Practical Applications

Abstract: Written by a leading global expert on the topic, High Frequency Over-the-Horizon Radar provides in-depth coverage of the signal processing models and techniques that have significantly advanced OTH radar technology.

Conventional Processing

"1010505Signal and data processing have long been recognized as key elements to the success of OTH radar (Headrick and Skolnik, 1974). Such systems are inherently required to operate in severe clutter, interference, and noise environments, where the power of a received target echo is typically several orders of magnitude lower than that of the disturbance signal. Here, signal processing refers to a sequence of steps that transform the in-phase and quadrature baseband data samples acquired by the analog-to-digital (A/D) converters in each receiver of a multi-channel system to complex-valued outputs in the canonical radar dimensions of group-range, beam direction, and Doppler frequency. "
+++
The Israeli's invented Voice over internet Protocol which is in fact the basis for the success of this HF model. To take analog packets smash them down to digital packets with individual ID and blow them all over the skies. Then suck them up with a huge vacuum cleaner, they automatically arrange in the proper order and a high tech switch is able to then send them (packets) to the processor to find your ass, listen in on ya, or send you reruns of Little House on the Prairie.

The storage facility in Utah to accumulate every digital packet ever processed is waiting for you. There is no escape.

[inquisitive]

So to recap, J-man says it's either god bounces off of the dome or balloons and  Junker says to read the Wiki for GPS information where none exists.

Very informative.

Yep.  If you search the Wiki for "GPS" you get exactly one page: https://wiki.tfes.org/Space_Travel - which contains four broken links and nothing else.

If there was just one GPS system and it only worked in continental USA, then towers and balloons and such might work - but there are AT LEAST four different GPS-like systems out there (US, Russian, Chinese and European) and all four of them have world-wide coverage.  Do you see Chinese and Russian navigational towers studding the landscape in the USA?   Are there thousands of balloons from all four nations drifting languidly across our skies?

The "bouncing off of the ionosphere" approach cannot work for precision better than a few kilometers - and all four systems that we know of are accurate to within ten meters or so most of the time.

So I guess the Earth must be round.

qeek you should stop the deceit or maybe it's just ignorance? TV GPS radar all work off High Frequency waves now. You don't need satellites for Skywave, Groundwave or Line of Sight transmissions. Put the Kool-aid down and come join us in this brave new world that was discovered in 1921....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave

"In radio communication, skywave or skip refers to the propagation of radio waves reflected or refracted back toward Earth from the ionosphere, an electrically charged layer of the upper atmosphere. Since it is not limited by the curvature of the Earth, skywave propagation can be used to communicate beyond the horizon, at intercontinental distances."

"E-skip is a notable exception, where VHF signals including FM broadcast and VHF TV signals are frequently reflected to the Earth during late Spring and early Summer."

https://www.accessengineeringlibrary.com/browse/high-frequency-over-the-horizon-radar-fundamental-principles-signal-processing-and-practical-applications

High Frequency Over-the-Horizon Radar: Fundamental Principles, Signal Processing, and Practical Applications

Abstract: Written by a leading global expert on the topic, High Frequency Over-the-Horizon Radar provides in-depth coverage of the signal processing models and techniques that have significantly advanced OTH radar technology.

Conventional Processing

1010505Signal and data processing have long been recognized as key elements to the success of OTH radar (Headrick and Skolnik, 1974). Such systems are inherently required to operate in severe clutter, interference, and noise environments, where the power of a received target echo is typically several orders of magnitude lower than that of the disturbance signal. Here, signal processing refers to a sequence of steps that transform the in-phase and quadrature baseband data samples acquired by the analog-to-digital (A/D) converters in each receiver of a multi-channel system to complex-valued outputs in the canonical radar dimensions of group-range, beam direction, and Doppler frequency.

The Israeli's invented Voice over internet Protocol which is in fact the bases for the success of this HF model. To take analog packets smash them down to digital packets with individual ID and blow them all over the skies. Then suck them up with a huge vacuum cleaner, they automatically arrange in the proper order and a high tech switch is able to then send them (packets) to the processor to find your ass, listen in on ya, or send you reruns of Little House on the Prairie.

The storage facility in Utah to accumulate every digital packet ever processed is waiting for you. There is no escape.

All unrelated to how GPS works.  Please post links to GPS documentation.

[J-Man]

So to recap, J-man says it's either god bounces off of the dome or balloons and  Junker says to read the Wiki for GPS information where none exists.

Very informative.

Yep.  If you search the Wiki for "GPS" you get exactly one page: https://wiki.tfes.org/Space_Travel - which contains four broken links and nothing else.

If there was just one GPS system and it only worked in continental USA, then towers and balloons and such might work - but there are AT LEAST four different GPS-like systems out there (US, Russian, Chinese and European) and all four of them have world-wide coverage.  Do you see Chinese and Russian navigational towers studding the landscape in the USA?   Are there thousands of balloons from all four nations drifting languidly across our skies?

The "bouncing off of the ionosphere" approach cannot work for precision better than a few kilometers - and all four systems that we know of are accurate to within ten meters or so most of the time.

So I guess the Earth must be round.

qeek you should stop the deceit or maybe it's just ignorance? TV GPS radar all work off High Frequency waves now. You don't need satellites for Skywave, Groundwave or Line of Sight transmissions. Put the Kool-aid down and come join us in this brave new world that was discovered in 1921....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave

"In radio communication, skywave or skip refers to the propagation of radio waves reflected or refracted back toward Earth from the ionosphere, an electrically charged layer of the upper atmosphere. Since it is not limited by the curvature of the Earth, skywave propagation can be used to communicate beyond the horizon, at intercontinental distances."

"E-skip is a notable exception, where VHF signals including FM broadcast and VHF TV signals are frequently reflected to the Earth during late Spring and early Summer."

https://www.accessengineeringlibrary.com/browse/high-frequency-over-the-horizon-radar-fundamental-principles-signal-processing-and-practical-applications

High Frequency Over-the-Horizon Radar: Fundamental Principles, Signal Processing, and Practical Applications

Abstract: Written by a leading global expert on the topic, High Frequency Over-the-Horizon Radar provides in-depth coverage of the signal processing models and techniques that have significantly advanced OTH radar technology.

Conventional Processing

1010505Signal and data processing have long been recognized as key elements to the success of OTH radar (Headrick and Skolnik, 1974). Such systems are inherently required to operate in severe clutter, interference, and noise environments, where the power of a received target echo is typically several orders of magnitude lower than that of the disturbance signal. Here, signal processing refers to a sequence of steps that transform the in-phase and quadrature baseband data samples acquired by the analog-to-digital (A/D) converters in each receiver of a multi-channel system to complex-valued outputs in the canonical radar dimensions of group-range, beam direction, and Doppler frequency.

The Israeli's invented Voice over internet Protocol which is in fact the bases for the success of this HF model. To take analog packets smash them down to digital packets with individual ID and blow them all over the skies. Then suck them up with a huge vacuum cleaner, they automatically arrange in the proper order and a high tech switch is able to then send them (packets) to the processor to find your ass, listen in on ya, or send you reruns of Little House on the Prairie.

The storage facility in Utah to accumulate every digital packet ever processed is waiting for you. There is no escape.

All unrelated to how GPS works.  Please post links to GPS documentation.

I can't tell you thank you for playing because you haven't been paying attention. Back on the first page I provided this link that surveyors used for GPS.

https://www.e-education.psu.edu/geog160/node/1926

5.5 Land Surveying and Conventional Techniques for Measuring Positions on the Earth’s Surface

"You might wonder how a control network gets started. If positions are measured relative to other positions, what is the first position measured relative to? The answer is: the stars."

Remember? God did it.....

Now we've moved into GPS for purposes of Over-the-Horizon which you RE nut jobs should be enjoying. Doesn't require Sat's

[inquisitive]

So to recap, J-man says it's either god bounces off of the dome or balloons and  Junker says to read the Wiki for GPS information where none exists.

Very informative.

Yep.  If you search the Wiki for "GPS" you get exactly one page: https://wiki.tfes.org/Space_Travel - which contains four broken links and nothing else.

If there was just one GPS system and it only worked in continental USA, then towers and balloons and such might work - but there are AT LEAST four different GPS-like systems out there (US, Russian, Chinese and European) and all four of them have world-wide coverage.  Do you see Chinese and Russian navigational towers studding the landscape in the USA?   Are there thousands of balloons from all four nations drifting languidly across our skies?

The "bouncing off of the ionosphere" approach cannot work for precision better than a few kilometers - and all four systems that we know of are accurate to within ten meters or so most of the time.

So I guess the Earth must be round.

qeek you should stop the deceit or maybe it's just ignorance? TV GPS radar all work off High Frequency waves now. You don't need satellites for Skywave, Groundwave or Line of Sight transmissions. Put the Kool-aid down and come join us in this brave new world that was discovered in 1921....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave

"In radio communication, skywave or skip refers to the propagation of radio waves reflected or refracted back toward Earth from the ionosphere, an electrically charged layer of the upper atmosphere. Since it is not limited by the curvature of the Earth, skywave propagation can be used to communicate beyond the horizon, at intercontinental distances."

"E-skip is a notable exception, where VHF signals including FM broadcast and VHF TV signals are frequently reflected to the Earth during late Spring and early Summer."

https://www.accessengineeringlibrary.com/browse/high-frequency-over-the-horizon-radar-fundamental-principles-signal-processing-and-practical-applications

High Frequency Over-the-Horizon Radar: Fundamental Principles, Signal Processing, and Practical Applications

Abstract: Written by a leading global expert on the topic, High Frequency Over-the-Horizon Radar provides in-depth coverage of the signal processing models and techniques that have significantly advanced OTH radar technology.

Conventional Processing

1010505Signal and data processing have long been recognized as key elements to the success of OTH radar (Headrick and Skolnik, 1974). Such systems are inherently required to operate in severe clutter, interference, and noise environments, where the power of a received target echo is typically several orders of magnitude lower than that of the disturbance signal. Here, signal processing refers to a sequence of steps that transform the in-phase and quadrature baseband data samples acquired by the analog-to-digital (A/D) converters in each receiver of a multi-channel system to complex-valued outputs in the canonical radar dimensions of group-range, beam direction, and Doppler frequency.

The Israeli's invented Voice over internet Protocol which is in fact the bases for the success of this HF model. To take analog packets smash them down to digital packets with individual ID and blow them all over the skies. Then suck them up with a huge vacuum cleaner, they automatically arrange in the proper order and a high tech switch is able to then send them (packets) to the processor to find your ass, listen in on ya, or send you reruns of Little House on the Prairie.

The storage facility in Utah to accumulate every digital packet ever processed is waiting for you. There is no escape.

All unrelated to how GPS works.  Please post links to GPS documentation.

I can't tell you thank you for playing because you haven't been paying attention. Back on the first page I provided this link that surveyors used for GPS.

https://www.e-education.psu.edu/geog160/node/1926

5.5 Land Surveying and Conventional Techniques for Measuring Positions on the Earth’s Surface

"You might wonder how a control network gets started. If positions are measured relative to other positions, what is the first position measured relative to? The answer is: the stars."

Remember? God did it.....

Now we've moved into GPS for purposes of Over-the-Horizon which you RE nut jobs should be enjoying. Doesn't require Sat's

No, the technical information for GPS systems please.  Like http://www.gps.gov/   Please list frequencies, codes, messages etc.

[3DGeek]

qeek you should stop the deceit or maybe it's just ignorance? TV GPS radar all work off High Frequency waves now. You don't need satellites for Skywave, Groundwave or Line of Sight transmissions. Put the Kool-aid down and come join us in this brave new world that was discovered in 1921....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave

Good grief - you really do think we RE'ers are stupid don't you?   Don't you imagine that we occasionally look stuff up?

Yes we do...and 3 minutes of googling reveals that "skywave" transmissions send a signal up from the ground - it bounces off of this layer in the atmosphere called "The Ionosphere" and thereby gets picked up on the ground...for 100% sure, that works.

HOWEVER:  For navigation, you need to measure your distance from at least three sources.  Right?   If you want to know your position accurate to the 3 to 10 meters that GPS is accurate over - then you have to know how far the radio signal travelled...to within at least that precision.

With satellites - you know their position VERY accurately - they orbit at precise altitudes.

But with a "skywave" system, the distance the radio wave travelled is the distance from the transmitter to the ionosphere plus the distance from the ionosphere back to the receiver.

So for us to use skywave as a navigational system, we'd need to know the height of the ionosphere above the ground to a precision of better than 1.5 to 5 meters.

OK so how accurately do we know the height of the ionosphere?

Well, the D-layer (which is responsible for this 'skywave' refraction phenomenon) is described here: https://scied.ucar.edu/ionosphere

  "The D region is the lowest, starting about 60 or 70 km (37 or 43 miles) above the ground and extending upward to about 90 km (56 miles)."

Oh..."about"?!?  No!  "about" isn't good enough.  We need the distance accurate to a meter or so!  It could be anywhere from 60 to 70km?   Well that could change the distance that the radio waves travel by as much as 20km!   So if GPS worked the way you fondly imagine it might - then it would only be just barely accurate enough to tell you which city you're in...not which lane of the freeway you're on!

Worse still - this kind of communication only works in the HF band - which has wavelengths in the ten to one hundred metres range.  That means that to receive it, you'd need a 5 to 50 meter antenna.

Just how big *IS* your cellphone?

GPS signals are in the 1.5GHz range - (UHF) which allows for a 5 centimeter antenna...which fits handily into phones and satnavs.  But UHF signals don't bounce off of the ionosphere...they go right through it like it wasn't even there.

You also pointed out that VHF signals can also bounce - but only at certain times of the day and year...that's hardly useful for 24/7 GPS uses is it?   Also, TV signals are VHF - and have you seen the size of antenna you need to get decent reception?  Yeah - about a half meter to a meter...still not fitting into a cellphone!

(Maybe your cellphone came with a pair of "rabbit ear" antennas?)

So - GPS cannot POSSIBLY use HF, so it doesn't bounce off the ionosphere.  It uses UHF, which very notably DOES NOT bounce off of the ionosphere - and cannot go "over the horizon".   The refraction of the radio waves is fairly minimal, and high quality GPS units have software to estimate the degree of refraction in order to get slightly more precise positioning.

Old-school GPS's like my old Garmin sport-trac actually showed you which satellites it had found - and every few minutes, one would disappear over the horizon and a new one come up to replace it.  That doesn't work for balloons or tall towers or signals bouncing around in the atmosphere.

So no - you are COMPLETELY wrong - and for two entirely different and easily checkable reasons.

Why not check things like this before you post?  The information is ridiculously easy to find.   The people you're talking to here are SMART PEOPLE.  We're going to look stuff up and think about it - you really can't just guess at answers without being called out and made to look pretty stupid.

[J-Man]

inquisitive

I don't work for the .gov, they are lucky I pay my taxes, otherwise don't call me and I won't call you type thing.

Now I did work at a covert CIA office for a short time, kinda spooky if you ask me. Then I sued the bastards for rippin off the little guy, made em return damn near $100mm. Fuckers won't forget me anytime soon.

Like Junker, I'm doing Gods work.....

[J-Man]

Nice try qeek, the tech is waaaay past your puny little muscles. They can pinpoint a gnat on horses ass halfway around the globe if the horse farts a couple good times.

[inquisitive]

inquisitive

I don't work for the .gov, they are lucky I pay my taxes, otherwise don't call me and I won't call you type thing.

Now I did work at a covert CIA office for a short time, kinda spooky if you ask me. Then I sued the bastards for rippin off the little guy, made em return damn near $100mm. Fuckers won't forget me anytime soon.

Like Junker, I'm doing Gods work.....

So you can't provide technical details of how GPS works.

[J-Man]

inquisitive

I don't work for the .gov, they are lucky I pay my taxes, otherwise don't call me and I won't call you type thing.

Now I did work at a covert CIA office for a short time, kinda spooky if you ask me. Then I sued the bastards for rippin off the little guy, made em return damn near $100mm. Fuckers won't forget me anytime soon.

Like Junker, I'm doing Gods work.....

So you can't provide technical details of how GPS works.

It's similar to the gyro in airplanes made by one .gov contractor. A need to know only type thang. You need, I'm satisfied with there are no satellites.