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Offline Roundy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #320 on: June 25, 2022, 03:43:42 PM »
I feel like the timing of this might have been a  gift to the Democrats for the mid-term elections? I mean, it's true, the only way to fight this is by legislating; and the Democrats have five months to get that message across. This was a MASSIVELY unpopular decision; 70% of the country feels a woman has the right to choose what they do with their own bodies. The Supreme Court has given the Democrats just enough time to get the message out that only by maintaining (and building?) on their lead in Congress can voters have a hope of protecting that right, while ensuring that the decision will still be very fresh in voters' minds.

Between licking the leader of an insurrection's boots and allowing him to control their party and just continuing to make unpopular, backwards decisions, the Republicans almost seem like they're trying to sabotage themselves going forward.
70 percent, uh?

I am sure the polls you refer to are totally legitmate. ::)

It may be closer to 60%. It's a strong majority anyway.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #321 on: June 25, 2022, 03:50:58 PM »
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2022/06/24/how-americans-really-feel-about-abortion-the-sometimes-surprising-poll-results-as-supreme-court-reportedly-set-to-overturn-roe-v-wade/amp/

This article gives a good overview of where people's opinions stand on abortion. Broadly speaking the number is around 60% favoring the legality of first-trimester abortion, but there's a lot of nuance. Close to 90% believe abortion should be legal if the woman's life is in danger, or the child is the product of incest, or if the child would be born malformed. And support drops sharply with age; old fogies like Action80 pretends to be are a lot more likely to be against it.
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
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Offline crutonius

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #322 on: June 25, 2022, 04:38:26 PM »
I feel like the timing of this might have been a  gift to the Democrats for the mid-term elections? I mean, it's true, the only way to fight this is by legislating; and the Democrats have five months to get that message across. This was a MASSIVELY unpopular decision; 70% of the country feels a woman has the right to choose what they do with their own bodies. The Supreme Court has given the Democrats just enough time to get the message out that only by maintaining (and building?) on their lead in Congress can voters have a hope of protecting that right, while ensuring that the decision will still be very fresh in voters' minds.

Between licking the leader of an insurrection's boots and allowing him to control their party and just continuing to make unpopular, backwards decisions, the Republicans almost seem like they're trying to sabotage themselves going forward.
70 percent, uh?

I am sure the polls you refer to are totally legitmate. ::)

I think you're conflating supporting any right to abortion with an unlimited right to abortion.  Any poll I see shows the people opposing abortion for any reason are strongly in the minority.  Feel free to post your own though.

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #323 on: June 25, 2022, 05:45:29 PM »
70 percent, uh?

I am sure the polls you refer to are totally legitmate. ::)

Yeah, they are:









What do your "legitimate" polls have to say?

Offline Action80

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #324 on: June 25, 2022, 09:21:05 PM »
My legitimate polls state that people who are against it will be living in places where it will not be legal.

People who are strongly for it will be living in places where it will be legal.

Thanks to the Supreme Court.

Your polls are invalid for they are limited to areas of the country where people tend to love to kill the unborn.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #325 on: June 25, 2022, 09:30:07 PM »
My legitimate polls state that people who are against it will be living in places where it will not be legal.

What polls are those? Let's see them.

People who are strongly for it will be living in places where it will be legal.

So all people make their residence location decisions solely based upon whether abortion is legal or not in their area?

Your polls are invalid for they are limited to areas of the country where people tend to love to kill the unborn.

What's your basis for this? Source?

Offline Action80

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #326 on: June 25, 2022, 09:34:16 PM »
People who are strongly for it will be living in places where it will be legal.
So all people make their residence location decisions solely based upon whether abortion is legal or not in their area?
Like-minded individuals congregate together.
It's so hard to have faith in humanity when they do shit like this.

"I hate the police so I'm gonna burn a Walgreen's!"

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Offline stack

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #327 on: June 25, 2022, 09:54:10 PM »
People who are strongly for it will be living in places where it will be legal.
So all people make their residence location decisions solely based upon whether abortion is legal or not in their area?
Like-minded individuals congregate together.

So only pro-choice folks live in, say, New York City? And everyone who lives there does so for the express reason that it's all pro-choice people?

My legitimate polls state that people who are against it will be living in places where it will not be legal.

What legitimate polls are those? Let's see them. A link(s) will do.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #328 on: June 25, 2022, 10:00:33 PM »
People who are strongly for it will be living in places where it will be legal.
Except for the people who don't. of course.

I find it quite amusing that people who are strongly anti-abortion tend to be strongly anti-gun control.  Let's protect the fetus, but once born, they're on their own trying to avoid being killed in a mass shooting.
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Offline crutonius

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #329 on: June 25, 2022, 11:21:01 PM »
People who are strongly for it will be living in places where it will be legal.
So all people make their residence location decisions solely based upon whether abortion is legal or not in their area?
Like-minded individuals congregate together.

So basically your feelings are your source on this.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #330 on: June 26, 2022, 01:16:38 AM »
There is a reason the pendulum is swinging back to the right. Current abortion laws in several US States are barbaric compared to a number of European countries. Leftists keep pushing the envelope and have managed to enact laws for the right to saw up a baby at 40 weeks.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 05:49:49 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #331 on: June 26, 2022, 02:51:47 AM »
Vermont, for example, hasn’t enacted any laws on abortion, they just affirm a woman’s right to choose. There are no elective third trimester abortions though as they contravene standard medical ethics. I do think it’s important not to permit elective abortions of viable fetuses (meaning they are capable of surviving outside the mother’s womb), the elective third trimester abortion is a right wing boogey man as far as I have read.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #332 on: June 26, 2022, 06:09:56 AM »
That just means that a woman has to find a doctor who would be willing to perform it. There is no law forbidding abortions at 40 weeks or in the third trimester. Vermont does not impose legal restrictions on abortions.

The 2019 Vermont bill allows late term abortions for any reasons - https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/vermont-house-passes-bill-legalizing-all-abortion/

    " The Vermont House voted this evening to pass H57, which would legalize abortion at any stage of pregnancy and for any reason. “Every individual who becomes pregnant has the fundamental right to choose to carry a pregnancy to term, give birth to a child, or to have an abortion,” the bill states.

    The bill was co-sponsored by 90 Democratic legislators and passed by a vote of 106-36.

    This legislation is far more radical than the recent expansion of late-term abortion in New York, as well as the proposed expansions in Virginia and Rhode Island. Those bills allow abortion for any reason up to viability and essentially allow for abortion up to birth, creating “health” exceptions that are often loosely interpreted to permit abortion on demand after viability as well.

    Rather than crafting health exceptions like these that amount to tacit permission for post-viability abortion, the Vermont bill offers a blanket permission slip for any and all abortion, throughout pregnancy, and for any reason."

It is not a coincidence that Democrats were pushing a late term abortion bill. They were pushing late term abortion bills in many states. In 2019 Democrats were unsuccessful in pushing a similar bill in Virginia - https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/virginia-bill-would-legalize-abortion-up-to-birth/

    " Democratic delegate Kathy Tran has introduced a bill in Virginia’s House of Delegates that would legalize abortion up to birth. When questioned about the bill on Monday by Republican delegate Todd Gilbert, the Virginia House majority leader, Tran acknowledged that it would allow abortion even at the very end of pregnancy when a woman was going into labor.

    The bill is called the Repeal Act because it would remove all existing restrictions on abortion in Virginia. That includes permitting abortion in the last three months of pregnancy, eliminating informed-consent and clinic-safety requirements, permitting late-term abortions to be performed in outpatient clinics, and removing pro-life initiatives such as ultrasound requirements and the state’s 24-hour waiting period. It has the backing of Virginia’s Democratic governor Ralph Northam.

    Here’s part of their back-and-forth during questioning:

    Gilbert: So how late in the third trimester could a physician perform an abortion if he indicated it would impair the mental health of the woman?

    Tran: Or physical health.

    Gilbert: Okay. I’m talking about mental health.

    Tran: I mean, through the third trimester. The third trimester goes all the way up to 40 weeks.

    Gilbert: So to the end of the third trimester?

    Tran: Yes. I don’t think we have a limit in the bill.

    Gilbert: So where it’s obvious that a woman is about to give birth, she has physical signs that she’s about give birth, would that still be a point at which she could still request an abortion if she was so certified? (pause) She’s dilating?

    Tran: Mr. Chairman, you know, that would be a decision that the doctor, the physician, and the woman would make.

    Gilbert: I understand that. I’m asking if your bill allows that.

    Tran: My bill would allow that, yes."

According to the legislator under this bill a doctor in Virginia could decide to terminate the pregnancy in the third trimester if the doctor thinks it would "impair the mental health" of the woman. There is a video with a longer exchange:



@ 3.37-

"Q: The doctor wouldn't have to have any specialized training in mental health to make that decision?

A: Under this bill, no"

From the video description:

"Virginia could soon be joining New York in repealing restrictions on abortion, including terminations up until the moment of birth, under the provisions of a bill backed by Governor Ralph Northam and a substantial number of Democratic lawmakers.

The Repeal Act, introduced as HB2491 by Delegate Kathy Tran (D-Springfield), would repeal restrictions on third trimester abortions, allow abortion doctors to self-certify the necessity of late term procedures, eliminate informed consent requirements, repeal abortion clinic health and safety standards, permit late term abortions to be performed in outpatient clinics, remove ultrasound requirements, and eliminate Virginia's 24 hour waiting period."

Yeah, Democrats were pushing late term abortions and elimination of abortion restrictions in Virginia. They were doing this in other states as as well, hence the swing of the pendulum to the right on this issue.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 06:38:05 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #333 on: June 26, 2022, 05:38:31 PM »
Yeah, they are:



The general population of the country doesn't control the health laws in each state. The country was not set up that way. Even if it was, the majority of Americans generally only support early stage abortions.

https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2021-06-25/ap-norc-poll-most-say-restrict-abortion-after-1st-trimester

    NEW YORK (AP) — A solid majority of Americans believe most abortions should be legal in the first three months of a woman’s pregnancy, but most say the procedure should usually be illegal in the second and third trimesters, according to a new poll.

    The poll comes just weeks after the U.S. Supreme Court agreed to hear a case involving a currently blocked Mississippi law that would ban abortions after 15 weeks of pregnancy, two weeks into the second trimester. If the high court upholds the law, it would be the first time since the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision confirming a woman’s right to abortion that a state would be allowed to ban abortions before a fetus can survive outside the womb.

    The new poll from The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research finds 61% of Americans say abortion should be legal in most or all circumstances in the first trimester of a pregnancy. However, 65% said abortion should usually be illegal in the second trimester, and 80% said that about the third trimester.

Many Democrat legislators are pushing for late term abortions, which places them on the wrong side of popular opinion.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 05:43:42 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline crutonius

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #334 on: June 26, 2022, 06:24:24 PM »

Many Democrat legislators are pushing for late term abortions, which places them on the wrong side of popular opinion.

Who?  How many?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #335 on: June 26, 2022, 06:56:42 PM »

Many Democrat legislators are pushing for late term abortions, which places them on the wrong side of popular opinion.

Who?  How many?

It has been that way for a while. Democrats favor late term abortions.

On a national level in 1998 there was the HR 1122 - Partial-Birth/Late-Term Abortion bill which seeked to ban the practice of partial abortions where the fetus is partially delivered and aborted.

https://justfacts.votesmart.org/bill/2858/8202/156/partial-birthlate-term-abortion-bill

Vote Smart's Synopsis:
"Vote to pass a bill that prohibits any individual from knowingly performing a procedure, in which a fetus is partially delivered before it is aborted, unless the life of the woman is endangered by a physical disorder, illness, or injury."



In 2015 Democrats again also voted against a bill to ban late term abortions:



Earlier this year in February 2022, Senate Majorty Leader Chuch Schumer introduced a bill into the Senate, that was passed by the House in Sept 2021, to codify abortion at all stages.

https://www.frc.org/updatearticle/20220225/dems-abortion

    "On February 28, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) will bring the Abortion on Demand Until Birth Act, otherwise known as the Women's Health Protection Act (WHPA, S. 1975), to a vote. This legislation codifies Roe v. Wade's precedent of legal abortion through the entirety of pregnancy. The bill passed the House in September and needs 60 votes in order to pass the Senate. If the bill does pass and is signed into law, it will become the first-ever piece of federal legislation legalizing the killing of an unborn child."

Surprise, surprise, at the end of the previous year in September of 2021 House Democrats had voted in favor of it on a nearly party line vote.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/24/politics/house-vote-women-health-protection-act/index.html

    (CNN) The House on Friday passed the Women's Health Protection Act, a bill aimed at preserving access to an abortion nationwide, as abortion rights are being threatened across the country by Republican-led state legislatures.

    The House passed the measure on nearly a party-line vote, with Democratic Rep. Henry Cuellar of Texas voting with Republicans against the measure. The vote was 218-211.

Democrats love late term abortion. You can find a similar Democrat voting record on a state level by looking for late term abortion bills by state.

Democrats are always the ones who vote in favor of late term abortions.

Democrats are always the ones who introduce bills for late term abortions.

Democrats are always the ones who vote against bills banning late terms abortions.

That is just the way it is. Late term abortions are a Democrat staple item.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 07:16:44 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline crutonius

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #336 on: June 26, 2022, 07:42:16 PM »

Many Democrat legislators are pushing for late term abortions, which places them on the wrong side of popular opinion.

Who?  How many?

It has been that way for a while. Democrats favor late term abortions.

On a national level in 1998 there was the HR 1122 - Partial-Birth/Late-Term Abortion bill which seeked to ban the practice of partial abortions where the fetus is partially delivered and aborted.

https://justfacts.votesmart.org/bill/2858/8202/156/partial-birthlate-term-abortion-bill

Vote Smart's Synopsis:
"Vote to pass a bill that prohibits any individual from knowingly performing a procedure, in which a fetus is partially delivered before it is aborted, unless the life of the woman is endangered by a physical disorder, illness, or injury."



In 2015 Democrats again also voted against a bill to ban late term abortions:



Earlier this year in February 2022, Senate Majorty Leader Chuch Schumer introduced a bill into the Senate, that was passed by the House in Sept 2021, to codify abortion at all stages.

https://www.frc.org/updatearticle/20220225/dems-abortion

    "On February 28, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.) will bring the Abortion on Demand Until Birth Act, otherwise known as the Women's Health Protection Act (WHPA, S. 1975), to a vote. This legislation codifies Roe v. Wade's precedent of legal abortion through the entirety of pregnancy. The bill passed the House in September and needs 60 votes in order to pass the Senate. If the bill does pass and is signed into law, it will become the first-ever piece of federal legislation legalizing the killing of an unborn child."

Surprise, surprise, at the end of the previous year in September of 2021 House Democrats had voted in favor of it on a nearly party line vote.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/24/politics/house-vote-women-health-protection-act/index.html

    (CNN) The House on Friday passed the Women's Health Protection Act, a bill aimed at preserving access to an abortion nationwide, as abortion rights are being threatened across the country by Republican-led state legislatures.

    The House passed the measure on nearly a party-line vote, with Democratic Rep. Henry Cuellar of Texas voting with Republicans against the measure. The vote was 218-211.

Democrats love late term abortion. You can find a similar Democrat voting record on a state level by looking for late term abortion bills by state.

Democrats are always the ones who vote in favor of late term abortions.

Democrats are always the ones who introduce bills for late term abortions.

Democrats are always the ones who vote against bills banning late terms abortions.

That is just the way it is. Late term abortions are a Democrat staple item.

1998?  Times have changed quite a bit.  The Democrats now resemble the Republicans then quite a bit more than the current Republican party.  Things have shifted to the right quite a bit.  I don't think it's relevant to dig into that one.

2015,  not sure if 20 weeks is late term.  That's a bit of a stretch.  Also it looks like several democrats did vote for it while a few republicans voted against it.  I think if they threw in some language legalizing abortions earlier than 20 weeks then they probably would have gotten a lot more support. 

2021 also 2022.  The link you provided seems to be, well, lies I think is the best way to put it.  I'm reading the actual text of the bill and I'm only seeing abortions past fetal viability allowed in the case of an extreme medical risk.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3755/text

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Offline rooster

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #337 on: June 26, 2022, 08:26:02 PM »
Oh boy, not the late term abortion boogeyman.  ::) They are incredibly rare but might become less so if abortions are difficult to get in a timely manner.

https://theconversation.com/less-than-1-of-abortions-take-place-in-the-third-trimester-heres-why-people-get-them-182580

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #338 on: June 26, 2022, 08:47:48 PM »
Quote from: crutonius
1998?  Times have changed quite a bit.  The Democrats now resemble the Republicans then quite a bit more than the current Republican party.  Things have shifted to the right quite a bit.  I don't think it's relevant to dig into that one.

So your argument is to concede that Democrats once voted in favor of late-term abortions, but claim that they don't hold that position any more? Do you have any voting records you can show us demonstrating that they have changed their mind, or are you just going to deny all present data? Democrats introduced and voted on the 2019 late term Vermont and Virginia bills discussed previously. Everything indicates that they still support late term abortions.

On the 2021/2022 Women's Health Protection Act bill the Town Hall characterizes the bill as a late term abortion bill:

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/rebeccadowns/2022/02/28/womens-health-protection-act-senate-vote-n2603913

    "On Monday night, the U.S. Senate voted 46-48 for the so-called Women's Health Protection Act, which will not only codify Roe v. Wade into federal law, but would override virtually every pro-life law at the state level, thus allowing for unrestricted abortion up until birth. While the radical legislation could not overcome the filibuster, it would have been a close vote without it in place."

National Review also characterizes the bill as a late term abortion bill:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/06/congressional-democrats-reintroduce-a-radical-abortion-bill/

    "Congressional Democrats have reintroduced a bill that would invalidate nearly all state-level restrictions on abortion, including existing laws placing limits on late-term abortions.

    ...

    The bill would also invalidate state limits on late-term abortions: If passed, the Women’s Health Protection Act will require states to permit abortion after an unborn child is viable (that is, old enough to survive outside the womb) if a single doctor asserts that an abortion is necessary to protect the mother’s “health.” The text of the bill explicitly instructs the courts to “liberally” interpret the legislation, and the bill “doesn’t distinguish” between physical and mental health, as its chief Senate sponsor Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut has said.

This is identical to the 2019 Virginia late term abortion bill discussed above, which Democrats favored. All it would take is for an abortion doctor to think that the pregnancy would impact the mental health of the mother.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47066307

    BBC - Virginia late-term abortion bill labelled 'infanticide'

    A bill that would have removed restrictions on late-term abortions in Virginia has led to a conservative outcry.

    The Democrat who sponsored the measure said it would allow abortions at any point in pregnancy up until the point of childbirth in certain cases.

    Critics said the bill, which failed on Monday to be voted out of subcommittee, would have allowed infanticide.

    ...

    Under current Virginia law, third-trimester abortions are only permitted if the risk to the mother's life is "substantial and irremediable" - language that Democrats wanted removed.

    The Democratic bill sought to allow for late-term abortions if the mother's physical or mental safety were at risk .

    The procedure would also have required sign-off by only one doctor, rather than the three required under existing law.

It is Democrats who sought to weaken the laws, removing language that it requires the risk to the mother's life to be "substantial and irremediable"

If a single abortion doctor thinks the mother's "mental safety" is at risk, late term abortion is permissible.

It is Democrats who are introducing these pro- late-term abortion bills and who seek to weaken the laws.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 09:17:27 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline crutonius

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Re: Bye Bye Abortion
« Reply #339 on: June 26, 2022, 09:10:25 PM »
I haven't seen this Vermont bill but seeing as you're misinformed about the recent bills in congress I'm going to guess you're misinformed about this one as well.