1

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: Today at 07:54:51 PM »

Joule's expansion.

It is about gas freely expanding when it is released to a vacuum.

Sorry, but Joule (not Joule’s) expansion is not the same thing as Joule’s Law. Gases expanding in space has nothing to do with the reaction force of the combustion moving the rocket.

Yeah, Joule has more than one.

Gas, when released to vacuum, performs 0 work.

It is a law of physics.

It is named after Joule.

Ergo, Joule's Law.

It is the product of the combustion that moves the rocket, you dyngus.

2

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: Today at 07:52:04 PM »

You are clearly stating the gas exhaust (something which is part of the rocket, a single closed system, as something entirely separate, like the other person.

It is foolish and you are writing crapola.

You are objectively wrong. Two people attached to each other is a closed system in the same way gas inside a fuel tank is.

Trying to claim a pair of people are a single unit...FUCKING HILARIOUS!!!

Tell you what, Copernicus...

Draw a goddamn diagram of a pair of people acting as a single closed system, while at the same fucking time pushing off each other so they can go opposite directions, and submit the diagram for critique to a science professor.

Once he okays that piece of crap, then post it here with the verification and I'll concede, okay?

A person pushes off of you, moving you in the opposite direction. The gas pushes off of the rocket, moving the rocket in the opposite direction. Both examples start as closed systems, and end with two parts separated by the force.

Just more crap that is so goddamn wrong it boggles the mind.

You are truly a piece of work.

3

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: Today at 07:46:49 PM »

You have absolutely no idea what you are writing. Gas released to vacuum performs 0 work. It freely expands.

Joule's Law.

That is literally not what Joule’s Law is. Joule’s Law is about the proportionality of heat generated and current through a conductor. I think we’re about wrapped up here.

Joule's expansion.

It is about gas freely expanding when it is released to a vacuum.

Forms no plume.

You are wrapped alright. Probably in a straight jacket or something.

4

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: Today at 07:40:02 PM »

Inside a combustion chamber there is the introduction of a mass of fuel at a low relative velocity.  The fuel mass is set on fire.  That releases energy.  One end of the combustion chamber is closed to the product of the combusted fuel.  The other end is open to the outside of the engine.  Since the pressure is lower on the outside, the combusted fuel accelerates out in that direction.  The accelerated fuel mass produces a force equal and opposite to its acceleration vector. 
 
Any pressure on the outside of the rocket engine will inhibit the exhausts acceleration.  Since the force is proportional to the mass acceleration the less external force outside the rocket engine the more force will be produced.  This means that a rocket will be more efficient in a vacuum than in an atmosphere.

This is correct.

This in incorrect. Gas released to a vacuum performs 0 work.

Joule's Law.

Trying to equate two people pushing off each other to the operation of a rocket is just plain stupid, so do everyone a favor and stop posting bs.

Do explain  a person pushes off of you, moving you in the opposite direction. The gas pushes off of the rocket, moving the rocket in the opposite direction. Both examples start as closed systems, and end with two parts separated by the force.

You are clearly stating the gas exhaust (something which is part of the rocket, a single closed system, as something entirely separate, like the other person.

It is foolish and you are writing crapola.

Look, I don't care how many screwed-up alts you want to recruit to chime in.

As long as your alive and post crap like tyou are posting now, you will remain wrong.

5

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: Today at 07:36:20 PM »

Inside a rocket's combustion chamber there is the introduction of a mass of fuel at a low relative velocity.  The fuel mass is set on fire.  That releases energy.  One end of the combustion chamber is closed to the product of the combusted fuel.  The other end is open to the outside of the engine.  Since the pressure is lower on the outside, the combusted fuel accelerates out in that direction.  The accelerated fuel mass produces a force equal and opposite to its acceleration vector. 
 
Any pressure on the outside of the rocket engine will inhibit the exhausts acceleration.  Since the force is proportional to the mass acceleration the less external force outside the rocket engine the more force will be produced.  This means that a rocket will be more efficient in a vacuum than in an atmosphere.

You have absolutely no idea what you are writing. Gas released to vacuum performs 0 work. It freely expands.

Joule's Law.

6

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: Today at 06:52:42 PM »

You’re holding onto someone in a vacuum.
You push off each other. According to Action80, only one of you should move (the gas should move but not the rocket).[

Two people pushing off each other is actually a force pair. You are almost getting it.

After all, before you both push you’re a “closed system”. It’s almost as if, when you push off the other person, the le momentum is… le conserved.

Trying to equate two people pushing off each other to the operation of a rocket is just plain stupid, so do everyone a favor and stop posting bs.

Rockets are, in fact, observed to gain efficiency at higher altitudes with less air resistance (varying slightly with the engine’s specified job)

No shit. You have any other obvious tidbits of drivel to add to your own op?

Rocket engines can certainly operate at higher altitudes than jets, but that is only because they carry their own oxidizers and require no air intake to accomplish combustion. Once external environment pressure drops below a certain level (i.e., pressures reported at or below the supposed "outer space"), rockets can no longer achieve propulsion due to a lack of a force pair.

7

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: Today at 05:21:27 PM »

So, all internal...

And yet all the arrows in Figure 1-1 show the exhaust traveling to to the rear.

If it truly was all internal, then the thrust would be traveling to the front, like some other jokers like to claim here.

Got the correction; thanks.  This is a simplified diagram of the gas flow through the engine; it does not illustrate thrust.

Ah, yes...the good ole "ignore what your lying fucking eyes are looking at!" argument.

It shows air being inducted from the left, compressed and impelled centrifugally by the compressor, diffused and entering the combustion chamber (to the right), passing though the turbine and exiting (to the right).  (Incidentally, the fact that the intake is to the left is just a convenience.  Many engines draw their air from all around, it doesn't matter.  The only important vector is that exhaust goes right, reactive thrust goes left).

Exhaust gas generates the thrust, period. No exhaust gas, no thrust. Exhaust gas generates a plume.

It is a simplified diagram is explaining the gas path.  To the target audience, the fact that thrust acts to the left does not require explanation.  Why would any of the arrows point left?

Because if you read the posts of the asshat train of various posters here, they are gaslighting the shit out of the issue, claiming the exhaust gas is pushing somewhere to the front of the rocket within the combustion chamber, quite similar to what you are trying to now claim happens with gas turbine engines.
 

An equivalent diagram for a road vehicle might show the engine, pistons, transmission and wheels going round.  The fact that the wheels try to push the road backwards does not need to be explained.

Nobody gives a damn about your fake analogies and comparisons.

8

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: Today at 05:13:20 PM »

You and your nephew have some pretty big balls to stand up in public and say that Newton's 3rd law of physics isn't real. I'm sure you must have some amazing proof that will blow away centuries of science. Do you have any evidence that doesn't come from your own mind or from YouTube?

You have no balls to stand up say that I have denied the third law of Newton. Equal and opposite reaction. Gas goes out one way, and the rocket or jet travels the other.

I am sure the only proof you have ever come up with in your life has some sort of warning label affixed to it warning about use during pregancy.

9

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: Today at 12:50:04 PM »

Exhaust gas accelerates right.  Reaction applies a force left.  Force pair.  Can you specify where the RR Book denies this? 

And going back a couple of posts, can you clarify you meant Fig 1.5?  That's a garden sprinkler.

Figure 1-1, corrected.

The exhaust is part of the jet or rocket. You must have one thing reacting with an entirely separate thing, not just part of itself.

10

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: Today at 09:12:45 AM »

It doesn't matter what your source claims, there is a plume related to all jets and rockets (i.e., we see what is typically called a contrail), and that plume reacts with the pressurized external environment to form a force pair, which results in movement. No force pair, no movement.

The "source" which designs, develops and manufactures jet engines, refuted by Action80's superior insight.  And possibly his nephew.

If your source claims there is no force pair, then it doesn't fucking matter what anybody says, that source is fucking wrong.

Jesus, how do you think you are going to get away with posting bullshit and somebody is not going to call you out for it?

A force pair is needed.

That is plain, pure simple physics (to quote the penguin). I cannot help you cannot read or understand what your source is claiming.

11

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: Today at 07:38:50 AM »

It doesn't matter what your source claims, there is a plume related to all jets and rockets (i.e., we see what is typically called a contrail), and that plume reacts with the pressurized external environment to form a force pair, which results in movement. No force pair, no movement.

A plume is a jet of plasma. A contrail is condensed water. What does a contrail have to do with anything?
Also, the “force pair” is the gas pushing against the rocket and the rocket itself. Hope this helps!

The exhausted gas is part of the rocket. A rocket is a closed system.

No force pair.

12

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: Today at 05:46:52 AM »

9. Jet reaction is definitely an internal phenomenon
and does not, as is frequently assumed, result from
the pressure of the jet on the atmosphere. I

I can find no mention of "plume" in the book, but be my guest.  Perhaps you could discuss this further with your nephew. 

Edit; my Bold, btw.

I am only going to concern myself with this portion.

So, all internal...

And yet all the arrows in Figure 1-1 show the exhaust traveling to to the rear.

If it truly was all internal, then the thrust would be traveling to the front, like some other jokers like to claim here.

It doesn't matter what your source claims, there is a plume related to all jets and rockets (i.e., we see what is typically called a contrail), and that plume reacts with the pressurized external environment to form a force pair, which results in movement. No force pair, no movement.

13

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 10:05:33 PM »

Yes, I have and he understands that a pressurized environment must exist for a plume to form.

Do his superiors and the engineers that designed the equipment he works on understand it?

Of course they do.

If he were to ask the people who trained him about rockets and vacuums what would they say?

Pretty much the same thing I am.

Are you smarter than them or are they lying to hide the truth?

Lying about what?

14

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 10:03:24 PM »

Do everyone a favor, okay?

Go peddle your nonsensical crapola elsewhere.

I am done with your dissimilar anologies.

Okay. Do you believe in conservation of angular momentum? If not, explain why (according to Action80ian physics) a ballerina speeds up when they pull their arms in.
I don’t know which part was nonsensical. Please be specific 
Or at the very least - try to keep up!

What "angular momentum?" A rocket is pointed toward a direction during the propulsion phase (i.e., linear momentum).  If a rocket, taking off in a pressurized environment, enters a non-pressurized environment, it will continue to move until an equal opposite force acts upon it. But its movement will soon cease because the plume can no longer maintain its integrity.

Take any one of your analogies and feel free to apply the adjective "nonsense."

Is that specific enough for you? I hope so because it is true.

Very true.

15

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 09:20:33 PM »

Jesus, you double down to claim it is only an internal combustion absent any exhaust resulting in movement.

…what? Please reread what was said.
Why does a ballerina speed up when they pull their arms in?

Do everyone a favor, okay?

Go peddle your nonsensical crapola elsewhere.

I am done with your dissimilar anologies.

16

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 09:18:47 PM »

@Action. First of all respect to your nephew; serving his country in the military and then transferring those learned skills to the airline industry.  Similar career path to mine, though in the UK. 

Following up on Dr v-N, I wonder if you have actually discussed jet engine theory with your nephew, or whether you are just throwing in random relatives in the hope that it will lend your argument some kudos.  My sister is a nurse, but that wouldn't reinforce any argument I might make about Covid. 

And I don't like labouring a point, but you still haven't explained how the presence of a plume lends thrust to the jet/rocket.

Yes, I have and he understands that a pressurized environment must exist for a plume to form.

The plume is like any appendage and is what allows the rocket or jet to push off the atmoplane.

No defined exhaust (plume)... no movement.

17

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 09:14:58 PM »

No concept of a force pair exists in your fake and false description.

Combustion takes place separately and distinctly from the exhaust process.

Your posts are nonsensical and reek of desperation.

Hold onto your folly.

Leave reality to the sane.

Explain in detail why it is “fake and false”. The rocket is being pushed against by an internal combustion (which results in gas being accelerated outwards). I really try to not debate with beginner-levels but I do want to help.

Jesus, you double down to claim it is only an internal combustion absent any exhaust resulting in movement.

Unbelievable!


I will spare you the rest here, because you are simply clueless.

”In the space vacuum the exhaust gases form a large free jet, called a plume, which can impinge on neighbouring surfaces.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-0421(91)90008-R

No, a plume cannot form in an environment where there is no pressure.

You not agreeing what a “plume” is against the rest of the world is literally nobody’s problem but yours. Lol.

I agree what a plume is and have already stated as such.

Your LOL is simply you laughing at your own nonsense.

I am not the one with a problem, you are.

18

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 08:29:55 PM »

An astronaut floating in space fires a shotgun, a catapult launching a rock, a dude in a vacuum sits on a hand grenade and doesn't move when it goes off...

I see where the faker gets his nonsensical and fake analogies.

19

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 08:26:30 PM »

No external pressure outside the rocket?

No plume.

No plume?

No movement.

The end.

If I throw a bowling ball while standing on a skateboard, did I move backwards because of air resistance?

Using an inappropriate analogy isn't going to help you.

I’m going to make this incredibly simple.
You want to use the “pushing off an atmosphere” idea.
Okay.
Imagine the inside of an engine. The explosive power of the combustion pushes against the inside of the engine opposite of the plume, moving the rocket. No part of that process required an atmosphere.
The rocket is pushing against something inside itself.

No concept of a force pair exists in your fake and false description.

Combustion takes place separately and distinctly from the exhaust process.

Your posts are nonsensical and reek of desperation.

Hold onto your folly.

Leave reality to the sane.

20

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 07:08:14 PM »

Ronj is going on about a "plumb," he must have pulled out with his thumb over in a corner somewhere. Conveniently forgetting that no "plumb," assigns a big fat 0 to the A in the equation. I don't care if you multiply 1,000,000 M's to the big fat 0 of A, F will end up as a big fat 0.

Donutz is still asking how jets move when he is supposedly a former jet engine mechanic (by the way my nephew is currently employed by United Airlines, having served over 10 years as a former Air Force jet engine mechanic). Jets too, form a plume in the pressurized atmoplane, allowing them to move. The only difference in accomplishing their operation of movement is jets require an intake of external oxygen to achieve combustion (open system), whereas rockets do not have air intakes and have a self-contained material allowing combustion to take place when it is mixed with the fuel.

And faker is going on about who is ill-prepared, when his lack of reasoning has been so thoroughly discredited on this site it is laughable.

You are the one, faker, who was posting the bounce-around terms, clearly subscribing to them, just willy-nilly all over the place.

Really laughable.

Typical.

Rockets work in a pressurized environment where they can form a plume.

No external pressure outside the rocket?

No plume.

No plume?

No movement.

The end.