The Flat Earth Society
The Flat Earth Society => Suggestions & Concerns => Topic started by: Thork on December 07, 2013, 05:44:46 PM
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Ok, so to set up a Zetetic Council, we don't really need a lot from the administrators. Literally just a forum we can post into. We'd also need an agreement from the administrators that any vote from the council that is passed is binding and that they will endevour to do whatever they can to make it possible whether they agree with it or not. The Zetetic Council should have absolute power. Not Parsifal and PizzaPlanet. That's kind of weird and frankly could be destabalising.
Rules - cos we all like rules.
Ideas will be put into the new forum and discussed by those in the council.
Votes will be publically cast for transparency.
A resolution needs 50% or more the votes in order to be passed.
Nothing can be voted on twice in the same month. Saves repeated lobbying.
Any member of the council that isn't voting regulalry can be dropped from the council as this will prevent making 50%. This is no big deal, they can always be added again if they start posting again.
It isn't to become a clique like the old beliebers club was. If you stop posting, you are off the council until you return. We don't want it just the same 10 people from now until forever. That is irritating.
The forum for discussion should be public, but only accessible to the members of the council.
Being a flat earther is not a pre-requisite. Just a hardcore member of the forum with the society's best interests at heart.
Ok, what do people think?
I'd expect the council to be voting mostly on matters of FET and how to promote it. Whther to appoint presidents, have memberships, what goes into a goodie bag, should we contact such and such a media outlet, who should respond to whatever event, - that kind of thing.
I wouldn't expect too many votes for technical stuff, because frankly our technical team know better than we do. But the council's vote has to be binding, otherwise there is no point in the council.
Is this something people are interested in?
Do the administrators agree to this?
Other suggestions welcome.
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Ok, so to set up a Zetetic Council, we don't really need a lot from the administrators. Literally just a forum we can post into. We'd also need an agreement from the administrators that any vote from the council that is passed is binding and that they will endevour to do whatever they can to make it possible whether they agree with it or not. The Zetetic Council should have absolute power. Not Parsifal and PizzaPlanet. That's kind of weird and frankly could be destabalising.
Rules - cos we all like rules.
Ideas will be put into the new forum and discussed by those in the council.
Votes will be publically cast for transparency.
A resolution needs 50% or more the votes in order to be passed.
Nothing can be voted on twice in the same month. Saves repeated lobbying.
Any member of the council that isn't voting regulalry can be dropped from the council as this will prevent making 50%. This is no big deal, they can always be added again if they start posting again.
It isn't to become a clique like the old beliebers club was. If you stop posting, you are off the council until you return. We don't want it just the same 10 people from now until forever. That is irritating.
The forum for discussion should be public, but only accessible to the members of the council.
Being a flat earther is not a pre-requisite. Just a hardcore member of the forum with the society's best interests at heart.
Ok, what do people think?
I'd expect the council to be voting mostly on matters of FET and how to promote it. Whther to appoint presidents, have memberships, what goes into a goodie bag, should we contact such and such a media outlet, who should respond to whatever event, - that kind of thing.
I wouldn't expect too many votes for technical stuff, because frankly our technical team know better than we do. But the council's vote has to be binding, otherwise there is no point in the council.
Is this something people are interested in?
Do the administrators agree to this?
Other suggestions welcome.
Check you out, trying to take Parsifal and PP's power away. They may decide to share power or give it away, or decide to set up a Zetetic Council. Who are you to say that they shouldn't have absolute power?
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Check you out, trying to take Parsifal and PP's power away. They may decide to share power or give it away, or decide to set up a Zetetic Council. Who are you to say that they shouldn't have absolute power?
i'm one of the many users on this site with no power. That was kind of an odd question.
Are you suggesting Parsifal should be president?
We all voted with our feet to trust in their ability to administrate and look after the site. I'm not so sure we also voted them to lead the sociey. I was of the impression the society should be run by its members at last. Not by people who know the passwords for the forum. That's what ruined FES the last time.
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Check you out, trying to take Parsifal and PP's power away. They may decide to share power or give it away, or decide to set up a Zetetic Council. Who are you to say that they shouldn't have absolute power?
i'm one of the many users on this site with no power. That was kind of an odd question.
Are you suggesting Parsifal should be president?
We all voted with our feet to trust in their ability to administrate and look after the site. I'm not so sure we also voted them to lead the sociey. I was of the impression the society should be run by its members at last. Not by people who know the passwords for the forum. That's what ruined FES the last time.
We all know this. Please ignore Hoppy.
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Check you out, trying to take Parsifal and PP's power away. They may decide to share power or give it away, or decide to set up a Zetetic Council. Who are you to say that they shouldn't have absolute power?
i'm one of the many users on this site with no power. That was kind of an odd question.
Are you suggesting Parsifal should be president?
We all voted with our feet to trust in their ability to administrate and look after the site. I'm not so sure we also voted them to lead the sociey. I was of the impression the society should be run by its members at last. Not by people who know the passwords for the forum. That's what ruined FES the last time.
We all must fall under someones password control, unless you have your own website. Then we must fall under your password control.
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Check you out, trying to take Parsifal and PP's power away. They may decide to share power or give it away, or decide to set up a Zetetic Council. Who are you to say that they shouldn't have absolute power?
i'm one of the many users on this site with no power. That was kind of an odd question.
Are you suggesting Parsifal should be president?
We all voted with our feet to trust in their ability to administrate and look after the site. I'm not so sure we also voted them to lead the sociey. I was of the impression the society should be run by its members at last. Not by people who know the passwords for the forum. That's what ruined FES the last time.
We all must fall under someones password control, unless you have your own website. Then we must fall under your password control.
What has that got to do with the community deciding on how the society is run?
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Check you out, trying to take Parsifal and PP's power away. They may decide to share power or give it away, or decide to set up a Zetetic Council. Who are you to say that they shouldn't have absolute power?
i'm one of the many users on this site with no power. That was kind of an odd question.
Are you suggesting Parsifal should be president?
We all voted with our feet to trust in their ability to administrate and look after the site. I'm not so sure we also voted them to lead the sociey. I was of the impression the society should be run by its members at last. Not by people who know the passwords for the forum. That's what ruined FES the last time.
We all must fall under someones password control, unless you have your own website. Then we must fall under your password control.
What has that got to do with the community deciding on how the society is run?
It means Parsifil is boss for now.
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Check you out, trying to take Parsifal and PP's power away. They may decide to share power or give it away, or decide to set up a Zetetic Council. Who are you to say that they shouldn't have absolute power?
i'm one of the many users on this site with no power. That was kind of an odd question.
Are you suggesting Parsifal should be president?
We all voted with our feet to trust in their ability to administrate and look after the site. I'm not so sure we also voted them to lead the sociey. I was of the impression the society should be run by its members at last. Not by people who know the passwords for the forum. That's what ruined FES the last time.
We all must fall under someones password control, unless you have your own website. Then we must fall under your password control.
What has that got to do with the community deciding on how the society is run?
It means Parsifil is boss for now.
Hence the reason for this thread. Have you been drinking?
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Check you out, trying to take Parsifal and PP's power away. They may decide to share power or give it away, or decide to set up a Zetetic Council. Who are you to say that they shouldn't have absolute power?
i'm one of the many users on this site with no power. That was kind of an odd question.
Are you suggesting Parsifal should be president?
We all voted with our feet to trust in their ability to administrate and look after the site. I'm not so sure we also voted them to lead the sociey. I was of the impression the society should be run by its members at last. Not by people who know the passwords for the forum. That's what ruined FES the last time.
We all must fall under someones password control, unless you have your own website. Then we must fall under your password control.
What has that got to do with the community deciding on how the society is run?
It means Parsifil is boss for now.
Have you been following at all what we are doing here?
The forum is a platform for discussion and ideas. FE-related and unrelated alike. The council would be a separate entity that would overlap with the forum, but directs the society's actions, not the forums. Of course, it would be smoother to have both entities on the same page, which I am confident we can accomplish.
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I am in agreement with the principle of a Zetetic Council. I have two suggestions to make.
First, formalise the process of appointment for the Council. Who/what decides who is allowed into the Council? If it is by Council vote, who makes the initial appointment decision? I would suggest that Council appointments be by general vote of all official Society members, since they are the ones being represented.
Second, write a Constitution which defines what power the Council does and does not have within the society. I don't agree with absolute power; the Council should not be able to do ridiculous things like dissolve itself and hand all authority to Arnold Schwartzenegger. Then you can have a 50% majority vote required to do anything that the Constitution allows, but a two-thirds majority vote required to amend the Constitution.
There is some overlap between this issue and how I had planned to do moderator appointments for the forum. What are people's thoughts on moderator appointments? Should they be appointed by the forum admins, or the Council? My viewpoint is that they should be appointed by the forum admins until such time as that creates conflict with the Society, and then the Council should have the power to make an overriding decision.
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For me, I think mods should be appointed by the admins, as much as that makes my butt crack sweat.
But I also don't think admins should mod. I think they should arbitrate when a mod dispute arises. Let mods make the mistakes and be the last line of defense. Right now if you ban me, there is nothing anyone can do about it. If Jroa does and he's being a jerk, you can overturn it on appeal.
But for me, you guys can run the site. You host it, you decide.
The point of the council is to direct the society which will mostly be things not in the forums. Do we have a twitter account, who is going to talk to the BBC, what T-shirt logos should we have etc.
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What about my suggestions regarding Council member appointment and a Constitution? Do you have any thoughts on that?
Also, I want to be absolutely clear on this point: Neither PizzaPlanet nor myself has any interest at all in running the Society. We like this forum and we're both fairly technical people who can keep it up and running, and we'll participate in discussions we find interesting, but Society politics isn't one of those discussions. A Zetetic Council is something neither of us is going to try to block.
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What about my suggestions regarding Council member appointment and a Constitution? Do you have any thoughts on that?
Yes.
But its not my society either. I'd like to hear what other people think first. Otherwise its going to end up the Flat Earth Society according to Thork. I want to collaborate, not dictate.
Neither PizzaPlanet nor myself has any interest at all in running the Society. A Zetetic Council is something neither of us is going to try to block.
Cool. I guess we are all on the same page. :)
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Parsifal, like it or not you are the head of this site. You can delegate as much authority as you wish. When push comes to shove you will be the one to save the society or not. Daniel did not react over time to save .org, and it is dying. I think for now a few admins could run things with a few mods, all appointed by you. Over time you could think on and set up the guiding structures.
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Saddam Hussein 07:16:33 PM Voting in Zetetic Council.
I want see more of this! :D
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Ok, so to set up a Zetetic Council, we don't really need a lot from the administrators. Literally just a forum we can post into. We'd also need an agreement from the administrators that any vote from the council that is passed is binding and that they will endevour to do whatever they can to make it possible whether they agree with it or not. The Zetetic Council should have absolute power. Not Parsifal and PizzaPlanet. That's kind of weird and frankly could be destabalising.
Rules - cos we all like rules.
Ideas will be put into the new forum and discussed by those in the council.
Votes will be publically cast for transparency.
A resolution needs 50% or more the votes in order to be passed.
Nothing can be voted on twice in the same month. Saves repeated lobbying.
Any member of the council that isn't voting regulalry can be dropped from the council as this will prevent making 50%. This is no big deal, they can always be added again if they start posting again.
It isn't to become a clique like the old beliebers club was. If you stop posting, you are off the council until you return. We don't want it just the same 10 people from now until forever. That is irritating.
The forum for discussion should be public, but only accessible to the members of the council.
Being a flat earther is not a pre-requisite. Just a hardcore member of the forum with the society's best interests at heart.
Ok, what do people think?
I'd expect the council to be voting mostly on matters of FET and how to promote it. Whther to appoint presidents, have memberships, what goes into a goodie bag, should we contact such and such a media outlet, who should respond to whatever event, - that kind of thing.
I wouldn't expect too many votes for technical stuff, because frankly our technical team know better than we do. But the council's vote has to be binding, otherwise there is no point in the council.
Is this something people are interested in?
Do the administrators agree to this?
Other suggestions welcome.
I think it would be a vary good idea to have a zetetic counsel to reduce coruption and bring democracey to the FES. How would once aply to become a member of thus counsel?! :)
Ok, so to set up a Zetetic Council, we don't really need a lot from the administrators. Literally just a forum we can post into. We'd also need an agreement from the administrators that any vote from the council that is passed is binding and that they will endevour to do whatever they can to make it possible whether they agree with it or not. The Zetetic Council should have absolute power. Not Parsifal and PizzaPlanet. That's kind of weird and frankly could be destabalising.
Rules - cos we all like rules.
Ideas will be put into the new forum and discussed by those in the council.
Votes will be publically cast for transparency.
A resolution needs 50% or more the votes in order to be passed.
Nothing can be voted on twice in the same month. Saves repeated lobbying.
Any member of the council that isn't voting regulalry can be dropped from the council as this will prevent making 50%. This is no big deal, they can always be added again if they start posting again.
It isn't to become a clique like the old beliebers club was. If you stop posting, you are off the council until you return. We don't want it just the same 10 people from now until forever. That is irritating.
The forum for discussion should be public, but only accessible to the members of the council.
Being a flat earther is not a pre-requisite. Just a hardcore member of the forum with the society's best interests at heart.
Ok, what do people think?
I'd expect the council to be voting mostly on matters of FET and how to promote it. Whther to appoint presidents, have memberships, what goes into a goodie bag, should we contact such and such a media outlet, who should respond to whatever event, - that kind of thing.
I wouldn't expect too many votes for technical stuff, because frankly our technical team know better than we do. But the council's vote has to be binding, otherwise there is no point in the council.
Is this something people are interested in?
Do the administrators agree to this?
Other suggestions welcome.
Check you out, trying to take Parsifal and PP's power away. They may decide to share power or give it away, or decide to set up a Zetetic Council. Who are you to say that they shouldn't have absolute power?
I do agree that thus far pp and Parsifal have been vary fine leaders however there must be some type of limitation. Pherhaps we could keep them as the supreme leaders with limitation by the counsel
I am in agreement with the principle of a Zetetic Council. I have two suggestions to make.
First, formalise the process of appointment for the Council. Who/what decides who is allowed into the Council? If it is by Council vote, who makes the initial appointment decision? I would suggest that Council appointments be by general vote of all official Society members, since they are the ones being represented.
Second, write a Constitution which defines what power the Council does and does not have within the society. I don't agree with absolute power; the Council should not be able to do ridiculous things like dissolve itself and hand all authority to Arnold Schwartzenegger. Then you can have a 50% majority vote required to do anything that the Constitution allows, but a two-thirds majority vote required to amend the Constitution.
There is some overlap between this issue and how I had planned to do moderator appointments for the forum. What are people's thoughts on moderator appointments? Should they be appointed by the forum admins, or the Council? My viewpoint is that they should be appointed by the forum admins until such time as that creates conflict with the Society, and then the Council should have the power to make an overriding decision.
Ah a constitution good idea!!! :D Vary good ideas here parsifal good job and im especieley glad to see you arent abusing your power but insted advocating limited goverment!!! God bless FES!!!
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I think it would be a vary good idea to have a zetetic counsel to reduce coruption and bring democracey to the FES. How would once aply to become a member of thus counsel?! :)
I suspect the initial members will be people who have been at FES for several years. Over time they will then vote in new members that they feel can enhance the Council.
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I think it would be a vary good idea to have a zetetic counsel to reduce coruption and bring democracey to the FES. How would once aply to become a member of thus counsel?! :)
I suspect the initial members will be people who have been at FES for several years. Over time they will then vote in new members that they feel can enhance the Council.
Sounds legit to me :)
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I like it with Parsifal's suggestions; I'm a little wary about the whole idea since, yeah, anyone having absolute power sounds like a bad idea. So yes, the constitution will help a lot (even if this is sounding incredibly cheesily 1700s America)...though I do fear that we may end up with a situation like Congress, where the Zetetic Council just sucks and there's nothing nobody can do about it. Not sure if there's much that can be done about that, though.
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I like it with Parsifal's suggestions; I'm a little wary about the whole idea since, yeah, anyone having absolute power sounds like a bad idea. So yes, the constitution will help a lot (even if this is sounding incredibly cheesily 1700s America)...though I do fear that we may end up with a situation like Congress, where the Zetetic Council just sucks and there's nothing nobody can do about it. Not sure if there's much that can be done about that, though.
I love cheesey 1700s America! :D Anyway yeah we just need to have a stric esplicit constitution so that were not in the same controversey about "being a dick" implys. We should also have a peoples vote (as in direc democracey) for more major things
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I don't like the idea, anyway. I see it as pointless and a hindrance. The administrator/moderator system works perfectly fine when both are active and care, with a decent community.
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I have to echo Lemon's sentiments.
We shouldn't be trying to form anther Flat Earth Society. Let Daniel do what he does. If people want to learn about FES, they'll eventually find themselves here. Then, the only difference between this forum and the old one is that we won't get updates on what Daniel announces.
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I like the idea of a Zetetic Council. It solves a lot of the problems with a dictator-like system.
A nice feature would to a way to conduct votes and make the results of who voted for what public. I'm not sure if there's a plugin for that.
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I think it would be a vary good idea to have a zetetic counsel to reduce coruption and bring democracey to the FES. How would once aply to become a member of thus counsel?! :)
I suspect the initial members will be people who have been at FES for several years. Over time they will then vote in new members that they feel can enhance the Council.
I have been here longer than most. :)
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I don't like the idea, anyway. I see it as pointless and a hindrance. The administrator/moderator system works perfectly fine when both are active and care, with a decent community.
For the forum, yes. This is about the Society.
We shouldn't be trying to form anther Flat Earth Society. Let Daniel do what he does.
We tried this approach. Daniel refused to budge from his position by a nanometre, which means there will be no cross-pollination between the communities. It's either allowing the FES and the forum to become distinct entities, which fractures the community, or creating our own alternative Society.
More importantly, though, people have free will. I don't care to run the Society, myself, but if others do then I'm more than happy to let them at it.
A nice feature would to a way to conduct votes and make the results of who voted for what public. I'm not sure if there's a plugin for that.
Technical problems can be solved. If a particular feature is needed for the website, it can be found or written.
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I fully support this idea. We know who will be members already, or at least the ones who should be part if it. My only suggestion is that the council be more of a novelty than a game breaker. Just like thork suggested already really. But the council wouldn't have much say over the forum ideas. They should have a read only forum with news bites and flat earth events. The council can be something members will look up to. The people at the helm of this fine society.
Ultimate control over the forum will always remain in the hands of the admins, but it would be nice to have the respected members have a position of respect and have more input into the flat earth message.
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I don't like the idea, anyway. I see it as pointless and a hindrance. The administrator/moderator system works perfectly fine when both are active and care, with a decent community.
For the forum, yes. This is about the Society.
Except you're not the FES, Daniel is (or, he runs it). This is a forum.
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Except you're not the FES, Daniel is (or, he runs it). This is a forum.
Some people don't like Daniel's FES and want to run their own. I'm not going to stand in their way, and since I'm now in charge of the forum they are posting on, I'll do everything within my power to help them make it a success.
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Except you're not the FES, Daniel is (or, he runs it). This is a forum.
Some people don't like Daniel's FES and want to run their own. I'm not going to stand in their way, and since I'm now in charge of the forum they are posting on, I'll do everything within my power to help them make it a success.
It's unfortunate that they couldn't make it under a new name. I guess I can sympathise with people that potential members won't google "Planar Earth Society."
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It's not like "Flat Earth Society" is trademarked. We can call ourselves whatever we want.
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It's not like "Flat Earth Society" is trademarked. We can call ourselves whatever we want.
Do you understand how trade marks work?
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I do. We just went over them in my intellectual property class, in fact. Because I go to college and shit.
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I do. We just went over them in my intellectual property class, in fact. Because I go to college and shit.
Then you know that Daniel could make a legitimate claim for "Flat Earth Society" being a trade mark.
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It's not like "Flat Earth Society" is trademarked. We can call ourselves whatever we want.
It isnt? Are you sure cuz I thought daneil would trademark it. Then again I see other sites that calls themselfs the flat earth society but its a parodey
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Kinda pointless laying claim to a society after most of the active members leave. The society is the people in it, not the leader.
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I do. We just went over them in my intellectual property class, in fact. Because I go to college and shit.
Then you know that Daniel could make a legitimate claim for "Flat Earth Society" being a trade mark.
Its part of the common venacular. Even Obama uses it as a figure of speech. A trademark attempt would fail if based purely on the expression. He could trademark his logo, but we aren't using it anyway.
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Kinda pointless laying claim to a society after most of the active members leave. The society is the people in it, not the leader.
Agreed. I respec Mr. President vary much but FET is a view of the people! Why should one man lay claim to a 150+ year old society?
I do. We just went over them in my intellectual property class, in fact. Because I go to college and shit.
Then you know that Daniel could make a legitimate claim for "Flat Earth Society" being a trade mark.
Its part of the common venacular. Even Obama uses it as a figure of speech. A trademark attempt would fail if based purely on the expression. He could trademark his logo, but we aren't using it anyway.
Well thats good to know! :)
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We know who will be members already
Right, the forum staff have been announced and so lets crack on with this bit.
We've 3/4 of the vote in favour.
Lets start with a quick list to discuss and we can bash it into shape. Prelimery list below purely because at some point someone has to name names ... so here goes.
Thork
Tom Bishop
PizzaPlanet
Blanko
Saddam
Junker
Crudblud
Squevil
Rooster
Hoppy
Lord Dave
Irushwithscvs
I've deliberately avoided going too heavy on the mod team and have tried to add people who have a history of generating things (wiki, art, research data etc) so that the council is a bunch of people who look to get things done and are people who are ever present so that voting for stuff isn't a pain. If I've left people off, its because I just forgot them.
Let the squabbling begin.
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We're going about this backwards.
Let's first determine how the decision for inclusion is going to be made. There's no point rattling off lists of names until we have established that.
Personally, I would be in favour of election by all official FES members, but then there is the question of if an "official FES member" is different here from what it is on the old site. Once we have worked that out, I would determine what number of votes is required for entry to the Council.
Then, and only then, I would call for nominations, with nominees required to either be official FES members themselves, or else be nominated by official FES members.
Throwing lists of names around the place is not the way to conduct an election.
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We're going about this backwards.
Let's first determine how the decision for inclusion is going to be made. There's no point rattling off lists of names until we have established that.
Personally, I would be in favour of election by all official FES members, but then there is the question of if an "official FES member" is different here from what it is on the old site. Once we have worked that out, I would determine what number of votes is required for entry to the Council.
Then, and only then, I would call for nominations, with nominees required to either be official FES members themselves, or else be nominated by official FES members.
Throwing lists of names around the place is not the way to conduct an election.
We are going to have a vote on every single member? That will take weeks.
I think we have a pretty good idea already, don't we? Can't we just start with a list and argue until people don't care anymore?
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We are going to have a vote on every single member? That will take weeks.
You don't need to have a separate vote for every single member. The method of electing Australian Senators can be trivially adapted for our use case. It uses preferential voting, so people would vote on a list of candidates from 1 to n, and after counting up all the votes we would have a decision.
This does require in advance to know how many Council members we want. I would suggest starting with five; keep things small until such time as we know they need to grow.
I think we have a pretty good idea already, don't we? Can't we just start with a list and argue until people don't care anymore?
No.
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We are going to have a vote on every single member? That will take weeks.
You don't need to have a separate vote for every single member. The method of electing Australian Senators can be trivially adapted for our use case. It uses preferential voting, so people would vote on a list of candidates from 1 to n, and after counting up all the votes we would have a decision.
This does require in advance to know how many Council members we want. I would suggest starting with five; keep things small until such time as we know they need to grow.
I think we have a pretty good idea already, don't we? Can't we just start with a list and argue until people don't care anymore?
No.
Great. Make the list and lets get voting.
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Great. Make the list and lets get voting.
The first step in my outline was to define the process for electing candidates. This includes the fairly important step of determining who is allowed to vote.
Allowing any forum member to vote would include spam bots, noobs and alts, which is definitely not what we want. I like the idea of restricting the vote to official members, if we can decide how to define an official member on this forum.
Suggestions?
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Anyone who held an account on the old forum for more than 12 months?
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Well, if it helps, examine me. I should not be allowed vote. That might help decide what kind of person shouldn't be allowed.
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Anyone who held an account on the old forum for more than 12 months?
That would exclude you, unless you can prove you ever had an account other than this one:
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=194682
It would also include anyone who made an account and spammed AR for a year.
No, we can't base this solely on time or posts spent on the forum.
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Well, if it helps, examine me. I should not be allowed vote. That might help decide what kind of person shouldn't be allowed.
Do you want the society to be successful? If so, you'll vote for the right people. You know everyone here. Why shouldn't you be allowed to vote? You live here as well.
Anyone who held an account on the old forum for more than 12 months?
That would exclude you, unless you can prove you ever had an account other than this one:
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=194682
It would also include anyone who made an account and spammed AR for a year.
No, we can't base this solely on time or posts spent on the forum.
Well you aren't making this very easy. At least duration of accounts (yeah ok I'm an exception but I have been at FES a long time), is a quantifiable yardstick.
Picking people we deem to give a shit, or that we like isn't very fair or democratic.
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If you're going to have a council, it must be made up of actual FEers.
So the first thing you should do is make up a contract that all members who wish to be on the council need to agree to.
Then find out who wants to agree to it.
Then vote.
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Well you aren't making this very easy.
It's not an easy problem to solve. Let's take the time to get it right.
Picking people we deem to give a shit, or that we like isn't very fair or democratic.
I agree. That's why I think official member status is a good measure to go by.
The old website has a register (http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/index.php/membership-register) of all official FES members. Some of them won't be registered on this forum, of course, but if we establish the set of users here who are official members, then we have the set of people who can vote.
It's not a perfect measure, and it means I won't get a vote, but at least it's fair and consistent.
I also think we should have periodic elections of this nature by all official members. I would actually sign up as an official member if we had a Society run by someone who isn't Daniel, and I suspect many others would do likewise.
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I'm not on the list of official members. >:(
Picking people who gave Daniel money is no use.
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I'm not on the list of official members. >:(
And?
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I'm not on the list of official members. >:(
And?
So now I can't vote on the election. >:(
I'm sure there are others who didn't want a crappy certificate from Daniel who should also get a vote.
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So now I can't vote on the election. >:(
Why should you be able to vote in an election pertaining to a Society you aren't a member of?
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Ok, work something out and tell me what happens. This is getting ridiculous.
If I can't vote, I can't be a part of organising it either for the same reasons.
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If a zentic council is formed, doesn't that essentially mean a few society is being formed?
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If a zentic council is formed, doesn't that essentially mean a few society is being formed?
I would have thought so. What Daniel has to do with it I don't know?
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Ok, work something out and tell me what happens. This is getting ridiculous.
If I can't vote, I can't be a part of organising it either for the same reasons.
I don't agree. There's no reason you can't be part of the discussion. I'm not an official member either, but I'm happy to accept that I don't get a vote this election as a result.
If you would prefer to decouple this Society from the old one and define an "official member" in some other way, I'm all ears, but I don't see an easy way to define that.
If a zentic council is formed, doesn't that essentially mean a few society is being formed?
Yes, which brings us back to the matter of how to define "official member" for the purposes of this election.
I don't like this way of defining voting privileges any more than you do, but I don't see a fairer alternative. If somebody can come up with one, I will be more than happy to listen.
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Yes, which brings us back to the matter of how to define "official member" for the purposes of this election.
The people who are here. Give everyone a vote. They are the people that suppoerted this new forum and they are the ones who are helping to build a new society.
We have no noobs. We have no trolls (you just banned the only one). Lets just vote. Whatever will be.
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The people who are here. Give everyone a vote. They are the people that suppoerted this new forum and they are the ones who are helping to build a new society.
We have no noobs. We have no trolls (you just banned the only one). Lets just vote. Whatever will be.
That's a reasonable argument. Let's do that.
I'm going to duck out for now, as I've steered the discussion more than I intended to. I'm happy to act as mediator for the election, given that I have both a reasonable knowledge of voting systems and a lack of interest in being on the Council myself. Let me know if you want me to do so, but it's your choice.
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Ok, work something out and tell me what happens. This is getting ridiculous.
If I can't vote, I can't be a part of organising it either for the same reasons.
I don't agree. There's no reason you can't be part of the discussion. I'm not an official member either, but I'm happy to accept that I don't get a vote this election as a result.
If you would prefer to decouple this Society from the old one and define an "official member" in some other way, I'm all ears, but I don't see an easy way to define that.
If a zentic council is formed, doesn't that essentially mean a few society is being formed?
Yes, which brings us back to the matter of how to define "official member" for the purposes of this election.
I don't like this way of defining voting privileges any more than you do, but I don't see a fairer alternative. If somebody can come up with one, I will be more than happy to listen.
Well whenever a new country forms they just define a voter as whoever is there.
So it stands to reason that we just make a cutoff date and say that anyone with at least 1 post here (and isn't a spam bot or alt) on or before this date can vote in the first election provided they pledge to be an FEer.
After that the council can figure out how to evaluate who is an FEer.
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Ok, defining a list of candidates for preferrential voting.
Lets say anyone who gets a nomination is added to the list. Everyone can make one nomination. Can't be for themselves.
So if I nominate Tom Bishop, we add Tom to the list of candidates.
Does that sound fair? Then we can make a thread, give everyone 5 votes, define the number of zetetic councilors beforehand and form the council.
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After that the council can figure out how to evaluate who is an FEer.
I don't think being an FEr is a pre-requisite. Roundy would be fine. Pizzaplanet thinks the earth is shaped like a pizza with double Australia.
The only thing that matters is that they help us improve the society standing.
If you think being a flat-earther is important, give your votes to FErs.
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Ok, defining a list of candidates for preferrential voting.
Lets say anyone who gets a nomination is added to the list. Everyone can make one nomination. Can't be for themselves.
So if I nominate Tom Bishop, we add Tom to the list of candidates.
Does that sound fair? Then we can make a thread, give everyone 5 votes, define the number of zetetic councilors beforehand and form the council.
I agree and am good with this. I like Parsifal's idea of 5 to start, which can be expanded by a council vote.
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Yeah, I like 5 as well now that I have seen it. Would make getting things done less of a clusterth*rk.
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Then we can make a thread, give everyone 5 votes
For preferential voting to work properly, you'll want people to be able to vote for the entire list of candidates in order from 1 to n.
If and when you end up deciding that this is the way you want to go, I'm happy to explain and/or oversee the electing process if requested.
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I'm happy with this. Will you oversee it as you have abstained from its inclusion?
You can explain the rules and we'll get on with it.
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I agree with Thork that being a FEr shouldn't necessarily be a prerequisite. There were a few RErs from the old site whom had a good working knowledge of FET and would also help the noobs understand some of the most simplistic ideas of it, Rama Set comes to mind with this. This at least shows a willingness to learn the theory and to participate in the society. This is a Zetetic Council, not a Flat Earth Council.
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I agree with Thork that being a FEr shouldn't necessarily be a prerequisite. There were a few RErs from the old site whom had a good working knowledge of FET and would also help the noobs understand some of the most simplistic ideas of it, Rama Set comes to mind with this. This at least shows a willingness to learn the theory and to participate in the society. This is a Zetetic Council, not a Flat Earth Council.
Vote for who you want. That's the point.
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I'm happy with this. Will you oversee it as you have abstained from its inclusion?
You can explain the rules and we'll get on with it.
No problem. I'll explain how preferential voting works once we have a list of nominees.
As an aside, I see no problem with self-nomination, nor multiple nominations per person. The election will whittle down candidates based on public opinion; you don't need nominations for that.
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Should we do separate threads for nomination and voting? I'd like to get a list going soon.
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Also, these decisions should be done over the course of a few days.
We have time zones and user schedules to consider. It wouldn't be fair if only those online now had a say in the rules of how the council is formed.
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I only have one further concern.
the ballot has to be secret. Otherwise those that vote last will have the greatest say. Lets say someone I kinda wanted is in 6th place and the rest of the vote is a done deal. I'll then just give that person my number one preference to help get them in, even though normally they might have been my 4th choice.
Parsifal could then make all the data available after the election for transparency.
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I only have one further concern.
the ballot has to be secret. Otherwise those that vote last will have the greatest say. Lets say someone I kinda wanted is in 6th place and the rest of the vote is a done deal. I'll then just give that person my number one preference to help get them in, even though normally they might have been my 4th choice.
Parsifal could then make all the data available after the election for transparency.
I agree completely.
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What decision will this council actually make apart from deciding who should be in it?
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I agree with Thork that being a FEr shouldn't necessarily be a prerequisite. There were a few RErs from the old site whom had a good working knowledge of FET and would also help the noobs understand some of the most simplistic ideas of it, Rama Set comes to mind with this. This at least shows a willingness to learn the theory and to participate in the society. This is a Zetetic Council, not a Flat Earth Council.
Vote for who you want. That's the point.
I think the Zetetic Council should have a majority of professed FE believers, 3 or 4 out of five at least. The Flat Earth Society should be here to promote flat earth theory.
Maybe the website could have a flat earth believer button or star to be lit on users profile. Lit when a person applies to the Zetetic Council. The applicants post history could be reviewed to see if the person really believes, and has advanced and promoted FE beliefs.
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If a zentic council is formed, doesn't that essentially mean a few society is being formed?
I would have thought so. What Daniel has to do with it I don't know?
Because, like it or not, Daniel is the president of "the world famous Flat Earth Society". This would become a new, upstart Flat Earth Society.
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If a zentic council is formed, doesn't that essentially mean a few society is being formed?
I would have thought so. What Daniel has to do with it I don't know?
Because, like it or not, Daniel is the president of "the world famous Flat Earth Society". This would become a new, upstart Flat Earth Society.
He is the self-proclaimed king of a forum that no one ever visits, Markjo.
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If a zentic council is formed, doesn't that essentially mean a few society is being formed?
I would have thought so. What Daniel has to do with it I don't know?
Because, like it or not, Daniel is the president of "the world famous Flat Earth Society". This would become a new, upstart Flat Earth Society.
So world famous that most people would say "Daniel who?"
I'm not sure it would take as much effort as you suppose to become the new official flat earth society.
What is the timeline of the flat earth society anyway? How exactly did this Daniel fellow become the official president for life?
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He is the self-proclaimed king of a forum that no one ever visits, Markjo.
Irrelevant. For some strange reason, you keep thinking that the FES forum is the sum total of the Flat Earth Society. I have no idea where you got that silly notion.
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He is the self-proclaimed king of a forum that no one ever visits, Markjo.
Irrelevant. For some strange reason, you keep thinking that the FES forum is the sum total of the Flat Earth Society. I have no idea where you got that silly notion.
well there is a wiki ... which we host, FE library ... which we are building, Twitter ... we have that, G+ ... yup. We don't have a podcast once a year or a book that isn't finished but I think we've all the other bases covered.
Tell me, what else is it that Daniel does that is so valuable and unique that only he can do it (or not do it as is his preference)?
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He is the self-proclaimed king of a forum that no one ever visits, Markjo.
Irrelevant. For some strange reason, you keep thinking that the FES forum is the sum total of the Flat Earth Society. I have no idea where you got that silly notion.
well there is a wiki ... which we host, FE library ... which we are building, Twitter ... we have that, G+ ... yup. We don't have a podcast once a year or a book that isn't finished but I think we've all the other bases covered.
Tell me, what else is it that Daniel does that is so valuable and unique that only he can do it (or not do it as is his preference)?
I never said that Daniel does anything unique. I'm just saying that he is the one that brought the FES back to life. As I recall, Wilmore and John Davis have their own FESes as well. If you want this to be another FES, then that's fine. Just don't claim that this is the one and only FES and don't dismiss Daniel's place in FES history. After all, if it wasn't for Daniel, then there wouldn't be any FES for you to splinter from.
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I'm just saying that he is the one that brought the FES back to life.
And then subsequently killed it again with his apathy. Now we are trying to bring it back to life. I hope you'll get behind us and stop moping about, saying how terrible we all are.
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I never said that this site is terrible. I'm just want to make sure that you figure out how serious you want this new society to be and where you want it to fit in the grand scheme of flat earth-kind. Is there going to be any serious FET research and discussion or is it just going to be another site to troll angry noobs? If the former, then great. If the latter, then what's the point?
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He is the self-proclaimed king of a forum that no one ever visits, Markjo.
Irrelevant. For some strange reason, you keep thinking that the FES forum is the sum total of the Flat Earth Society. I have no idea where you got that silly notion.
well there is a wiki ... which we host, FE library ... which we are building, Twitter ... we have that, G+ ... yup. We don't have a podcast once a year or a book that isn't finished but I think we've all the other bases covered.
Tell me, what else is it that Daniel does that is so valuable and unique that only he can do it (or not do it as is his preference)?
Interviews.
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Anyone can be interviewed. Willmore for example has.
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I never said that Daniel does anything unique. I'm just saying that he is the one that brought the FES back to life. As I recall, Wilmore and John Davis have their own FESes as well. If you want this to be another FES, then that's fine. Just don't claim that this is the one and only FES and don't dismiss Daniel's place in FES history. After all, if it wasn't for Daniel, then there wouldn't be any FES for you to splinter from.
Daniel hasn't done anything to build the community, it was all us. His place in FES history has been to sell some tshirt, disappear for months at a time, and copy-paste some old articles from the previous society onto his website, which he calls his "research".
Never once has he engaged in debate in the upper forums. He has not given his opinion on any aspect of the Flat Earth model. In his "Flat Earth Society" podcast neither the topic of a Flat Earth or the Flat Earth Society are discussed.
A president of the Flat Earth Society must engage in the subject matter.
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Two things. First, I think we need to, at least in a rough way, define what the role of the Zetetic Council members is to start with.
Second, I think we should discuss a length of term. Will they run for reelection bi-annually, annually, or maybe it is an appointment for life?
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Should be for life unless the council decide to replace them or they are no longer active or want to resign. My opinion of course :)
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Should be for life unless the council decide to replace them or they are no longer active or want to resign. My opinion of course :)
Frankly I'd probably stand down afer a few months to let someone with new ideas and new energy take the reigns and get moar stuff done. I think a turnover of sorts is important. How we get that of course ... I'm not sure.
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They could have terms, and that way we would have a turnover system.
Sure. I don't think we want a full change everytime though. One in one out would give stability to on-going projects.
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I'm so busy in the next week. I have to impersonate santa for charity several nights a week and I'm gonna try to have sex with business woman and my family visit over xmas and basically I'm not gonna be around so much in the next couple of weeks.
Can someone else run with this and get us nominating and voting?