The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: Tron on April 20, 2022, 11:13:57 PM
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Hi Guys,
I created this star chart which lists the constellations above you at a certain time and place. Its based on Solar time.
Using this map, London at Solar Noon should have the constellation Cassiopeia above it. At 12 Midnight in London, you should see Draco above you, Bootes and Virgo to your South, and the North Star, Ursa Minor, Cassiopeia, and Andromeda to your North as the map suggests.
You can double check the Constellation accuracy by using the website Stellarium - https://stellarium-web.org/ For example, I entered London at 12 midnight and viewed the constellations I should see (Pictured below). You might have to make slight adjustments for differences between Solar time and Standard time.
(https://i.imgur.com/23veMBr.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/fwWy8Sl.png)
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Wow! Super impressive. How do I work the map from other locations? For instance, if I'm in NYC, USA at midnight, where is Polaris?
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Okay, so off the bat you will see the same constellations as the London example. You have to imagine that NY has moved 12 hours away from the sun at Solar noon. So on the map, at 12am solar time, NYC will be positioned between Draco and Bootes and near the Bering Straight around 180 longitude.
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Okay, so off the bat you will see the same constellations as the London example. You have to imagine that NY has moved 12 hours away from the sun at Solar noon. So on the map, at 12am solar time, NYC will be positioned between Draco and Bootes and near the Bering Straight around 180 longitude.
I'm diggin' your map, I'm just unclear how one might use it, functionally. I think I get your statement above, by the time Solar midnight has reached me in NYC (It's like 7AM in London) I now see what London was seeing at their midnight.
Back to my Polaris example, NYC, midnight, way over on the left side of the map, which way am I looking, on your map, when staring at Polaris above the horizon? I kinda feel like I'd be facing leftward on your map. If so, which way would a Londoner be looking/facing at Polaris at the same time I am? Eastward, to the left, like me?
Here's something kinda cool you might like, old school:
The In-The-Sky.org Star Wheel (https://in-the-sky.org/skymap2.php)
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First, great website. I will probably use this to build my sky up, lol . Functionally, this map is useful to quickly find when certain constellations are overhead during the day.
To your question, from NYC at midnight you would look north for Polaris. I actually live on Long Island and I just tested this map against the sky. I was able to see Ursa Major to the North.
People in London at 7am would also look north and see an image of Polaris but the mechanics of it require a more in depth analysis.
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Would this be accurate as to what you're describing:
(https://i.imgur.com/tg2z6FU.jpg)
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Based on the position of the sun it's about 12pm in London and 7am in NY. The direction of north is correct.
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Based on the position of the sun it's about 12pm in London and 7am in NY. The direction of north is correct.
Sorry about that. I left the sun where you had it. If you want I can redo the image and put the sun in the right place if that helps. In the mean time...
Imagine in my image the sun is where it's supposed to be when it's Midnight in NYC and 7AM in London. Are my arrows correct in where the Londoner and the New Yorker would be facing if they were both looking North at Polaris at the same time?
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First, great website. I will probably use this to build my sky up
Why would you need to do that, when in-the-sky has done it already?
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I just prefer this format.
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Stack, you can rotate the stars and sun above the map or rotate the earth beneath them. Just use the sun as a reference to determine the time of day for any given location. This is an important point so let me know if you (or I) understand everything
And at any time of the day looking north would follow the same direction as lines of longitude and be almost parallel to them. So your NY directional arrow needs to straighten out by a few degrees to the right, but your London arrow is perfect.
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Based on the position of the sun it's about 12pm in London and 7am in NY. The direction of north is correct.
You have the same problem that the more common north-centred monopole FE map has with the Southern Hemisphere and the southern pole star (sigma octantis). If two observers are at different longitudes, both in darkness, then if they look to the pole (north in your case, so London / NY works) they are facing in divergent directions looking at the same thing. That cannot be the case.
I’ve never seen this adequately explained here - responses range from distraction or outright refusal (it can’t be dark in those places at the same time) or just flat out odd (they’re looking at different stars that look the same). What’s your explanation?
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its this question that prompted me to make this map! :D I think the answer is that the northern stars reflect off of the dome in such a way that their image can be seen around the world. I will make a map of this soon which will explain in more detail.
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Stack, you can rotate the stars and sun above the map or rotate the earth beneath them. Just use the sun as a reference to determine the time of day for any given location. This is an important point so let me know if you (or I) understand everything
And at any time of the day looking north would follow the same direction as lines of longitude and be almost parallel to them. So your NY directional arrow needs to straighten out by a few degrees to the right, but your London arrow is perfect.
New Yorker & Londoner facing North, both looking at Polaris, at the same time, they are facing according to these arrows?
(https://i.imgur.com/fzZy8Q1.jpg)
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Yes - And I see your point earlier. The "image" of Polaris can always be seen around the world pointing directly north. I just picked a few locations to plot it.
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Yes - And I see your point earlier. The "image" of Polaris can always be seen around the world pointing directly north. I just picked a few locations to plot it.
All that's left to do is show how the New Yorker and the Londoner are looking at Polaris, due North, at the same time, yet are facing in entirely different directions.
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Hi Guys,
Attached is an image of the northern stars as they would appear above the Dome In yellow font. I included Polaris and a few other constellations. The important concept here is that the stars in yellow are hovering above earth and there images are reflecting off of the Dome. This is why you see many of the same constellations and Polaris accross the world at the same times.
I placed these constellations with reference to the milky way. Its still a work in progress so I will edit the map as needed.
(https://i.imgur.com/ThkjGlD.png)
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Hi Guys,
Attached is an image of the northern stars as they would appear above the Dome In yellow font. I included Polaris and a few other constellations. The important concept here is that the stars in yellow are hovering above earth and there images are reflecting off of the Dome. This is why you see many of the same constellations and Polaris accross the world at the same times.
I placed these constellations with reference to the milky way. Its still a work in progress so I will edit the map as needed.
The only problem with the reflecting of Polaris is that a person in London heading toward Polaris and a person in NYC heading toward Polaris at the same time are heading in two completely different directions. How do we manage this?
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Stack, I updated the map above... From NYC and London at night, you can both see the image of Polaris while looking north on a disc (even though your looking in different directions) because the actual image of Polaris is reflected off of the dome and transported to the edges... I'm not even sure you can see the real Polaris (in yellow font) from the ground. All we see are reflections of Polaris and the constellations above, as is represented by the 1st version of this star map.
So, technically the reflected image of Polaris follows you around the world, always pointing north near the edge of the dome.
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Stack, I updated the map above... From NYC and London at night, you can both see the image of Polaris while looking north on a disc (even though your looking in different directions) because the actual image of Polaris is reflected off of the dome and transported to the edges... I'm not even sure you can see the real Polaris (in yellow font) from the ground. All we see are reflections of Polaris and the constellations above, as is represented by the 1st version of this star map.
So, technically the reflected image of Polaris follows you around the world, always pointing north near the edge of the dome.
I think you might have missed the point. For example, seafarers have been using Polaris for navigation for centuries. If a ship out of London and a ship out of NYC are both using Polaris to navigate, their "Norths" are not the same. The two are going in different directions. How do you reconcile that?
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If the stars were just a reflection off a dome like you say, based on what you are showing here it seems like people at the same latitudes would expect to see the constellations of stars rotated differently. That doesn't seem to be the case when observing the stars. Instead, they seem to be pretty much the same on any given day when viewed from the same latitude, sort of moving and rotating a bit throughout the year but at all times appear not to be rotated when compared to other locations of the same latitude. What's your take on that situation?
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Edit: Clyde I found a few errors on the map which I'll correct soon.
I'll keep my original response below for general purposes:
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The original reflection map plots the constellation directly overhead at a certain latitude every two hours- it doesn't capture movement. How the stars can rotate counter-clockwise in the north and clockwise in the south over time, is a property of moving objects seen through a dome..
https://youtu.be/DWsWNsuP-KI
Credit: https://wiki.tfes.org/Southern_Celestial_Rotation#Glass_Dome_Example
This is a map of the Cepheus Constellation and the Milky Way Galaxy and how they appear to rotate counter-clockwise around Polaris during the day from 30N latitude.
(https://i.imgur.com/WaZhQke.png)
Other properties of a dome can be seen here..
(https://i.imgur.com/Wcndg5U.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/xvSsVre.jpg)
Stars with high altitudes such as the northern stars can duplicate there images. Stars with lower altitudes such as the southern stars do not duplicate.
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If I'm at 30N latitude, let's say in the middle of the Atlantic, trying to navigate, which Polaris would I use to head North? It looks like I would have several to pick from.
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You should only see one image of Polaris. Its image follows you as you move around the world.
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What if I’m not moving?
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It stays still.
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I think I'm not following. I'm guessing if Polaris is being reflected all around the rim of the dome, then I would see Polaris's all over the place, facing left, right, and center, at the same time. Am I missing something?
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Good question... You can only see a certain distance around you before objects fade out of view...
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Agreed. But when I'm in that position, there would be multiple Polaris's evenly in my view or am I missing something?
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Stack, there's only one image of Polaris that everyone see's at night. I cannot adequetly explain why the light from Polaris reflects in different directions off a dome and only one image is shown to each viewer. I'll try more demonstrations perhaps like the images I posted to ClydeFrog.
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Stack, there's only one image of Polaris that everyone see's at night. I cannot adequetly explain why the light from Polaris reflects in different directions off a dome and only one image is shown to each viewer. I'll try more demonstrations perhaps like the images I posted to ClydeFrog.
I'm still unclear how navigation works. In reference to this earlier:
New Yorker & Londoner facing North, both looking at Polaris, at the same time, they are facing according to these arrows?
(https://i.imgur.com/fzZy8Q1.jpg)
You said:
Yes - And I see your point earlier. The "image" of Polaris can always be seen around the world pointing directly north. I just picked a few locations to plot it.
So I'm guessing not everyone is looking at the same Polaris at the same time. If the Londoner wanted to sail due West at the same time the New Yorker did, they'd be travelling in wildly different directions:
(https://i.imgur.com/Y1a71bg.jpg)
How does navigation using Polaris actually work for everyone at the same time?
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Again, Polaris will follow every ship around the world, and always point directly to the northern edge of a disc. You can only see Polaris at a certain viewing angle so that's why you can't see another man's north star.
Polaris, your compass, and lines of longitude will be parallel to each other. You will not travel in a straight line on a disc (or even a globe) and you need to make corrections to travel along a particular line of latitude.
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Again, Polaris will follow every ship around the world, and always point directly to the northern edge of a disc. You can only see Polaris at a certain viewing angle so that's why you can't see another man's north star.
So the reflection of Polaris would have to be a ring of lights around the rim so that everyone, no matter which way they are outwardly facing on the disk, will always see it to the north rim?
In other words, all of these ships are facing their own Polaris at the same time and all the spaces in between each ship must have their own Polaris due North as well:
(https://i.imgur.com/3tTrjIi.jpg)
Polaris, your compass, and lines of longitude will be parallel to each other. You will not travel in a straight line on a disc (or even a globe) and you need to make corrections to travel along a particular line of latitude.
What corrections do you have to make on a line of latitude on a globe? If I travel on 30 N latitude, no corrections are needed, it's a straight line:
(https://i.imgur.com/UQXPWMW.png)
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The first image is correct..
The second idea probably isn't worth looking into for our purposes.
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The first image is correct..
The second idea probably isn't worth looking into for our purposes.
Your map-under-a-magnifying-glass dome images don't show how Polaris could be reflected around the rim for all of those ships. It's more like an opposing mirror image. So how do all those ships all see Polaris at the same time and all things/people between those ships all see their own Polaris too? Is it a ring of Polaris's, like this, and which one is the actual Polaris:
(https://i.imgur.com/psrVfLD.jpg)
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Ships sailing north from different lines of latitude converge toward each other. They don't get further away from each other. That is the reality modern navigation has revealed to us. Leaving the discussion of rotated constellations behind (because it is definitely unresolved), you don't account for converging paths as people move north from various longitudes.
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Do I understand Metatron's explanation of Polaris appearing directly north of any observer on FE be summed up as: "I don't know anything about how other than vague speculation about projection and reflection, it just does."? Sort of like "unknown forces with unknown equations" in the FAQ re Electromagnetic Acceleration? We can add unknown reflective properties of the FE dome?
Meanwhile, is there any flaw in the RE explanation for where Polaris appears? It requires only the known tested properties of physics, the light doesn't have to bend, no dome with mysterious reflective properties? Does RE explain this with simple geometry? What is the reason to prefer an explanation that has no explanation rather than one that has explanation consistent with geometry and physics?
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Jimster your comments are valid... But I'd just reinforce that a new science theory may not have all the details worked out or explained properly, but it doesn't make it inconsistent with science.
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Ships sailing north from different lines of latitude converge toward each other. They don't get further away from each other. That is the reality modern navigation has revealed to us. Leaving the discussion of rotated constellations behind (because it is definitely unresolved), you don't account for converging paths as people move north from various longitudes.
The courses of two ships would converge on a Northbound voyage assuming that they are both North of the equator. If they were South of the equator the courses would continue to diverge until they reached the equator.
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To say things are not how they appear and offer no explanation or evidence is absolutely inconsistent with science. FE is absolutely inconsistent with RE. RE has experiments, observations, mathematics, and much confirmation daily. FE has "RE is wrong but we haven't figured it out yet."
Well, suggestion: Posting a wild thought about how things might be is just bla bla bla. Posting a consistent explanatory theory with experimental evidence that contradicts known science, you got something there. Why post until you have that? Suggest not posting util you have that.
The Electromagnetic Acceleration has the explanation "unknown forces with unknown equations". Even if you want to continue exploring the idea, you might want to keep quiet until you can explain, and certainly not go around saying it is true until the forces are known and confirmed with experiments.
Please find a real mathematician and/or physicist and ask them to explain coordinate transformation and basis. If they have the patience, tell them your idea that coordinate transform changes shape and physical properties are the same.
Also, per you, we can't know the shape of the earth. We can know the precise location of many many points on the earth and the distance between them. We can plot them on the surface of a globe. If all the distances match up, the earth might be round. If there was such a map of FE, the earth might be flat. Until someone produces a FE map with accurate distances between all points, there is no known possible FE.
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why is there an antarctica in the center?
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It's just the map that I've adopted over time... My favorite reason is that the land up north, around the arctic circle like Alaska, Russia, Scandinavia, and Greenland are all very tall in height and form a basin around the whole world which can "hold" a lot of the water mass of the oceans. The map layout also has a lot of water space that allows you to move the continents around in order to find an accurate depiction of land distances.
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Ships sailing north from different lines of latitude converge toward each other. They don't get further away from each other. That is the reality modern navigation has revealed to us. Leaving the discussion of rotated constellations behind (because it is definitely unresolved), you don't account for converging paths as people move north from various longitudes.
The courses of two ships would converge on a Northbound voyage assuming that they are both North of the equator. If they were South of the equator the courses would continue to diverge until they reached the equator.
Sure. I mean, I felt like that went without saying, but I guess it's worth pointing out. I was speaking from a Northern Hemisphere Supremacist perspective and that's probably not ideal.