The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Projects => Earth Not a Globe Workshop => Topic started by: Tom Bishop on May 18, 2020, 07:59:49 PM

Title: Religious Views of the Enlightenment
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 18, 2020, 07:59:49 PM
Since this project stated years ago I found myself more focused on describing the physical Flat Earth Theory, which I have documented from the general arguments from various forum discussions and put on the Wiki, rather than here. I think that we are generally satisfied with most of the often discussed issues except for the nature and layout of the South, which I believe future generations will tackle (I have never really put much effort into it, but recognize that there are many more variables to consider than commonly assumed, especially when questioning the assumptions).

Lately I have been meaning to focus my FE activities back to non-physical aspects.

For instance, did you know that father of modern physics, Issac Newton, had some pretty interesting religious views, including a belief that he was chosen by God? See the work of professor Robert Iliffe:

https://www.history.ox.ac.uk/people/professor-robert-iliffe

Robert Iliffe
Professor of the History of Science
Linacre College

"Rob Iliffe is Professor of History of Science at Oxford, Co-Director of the Oxford Centre for the History of Science, Medicine and Technology, and a General Editor of the Newton Project."

From a video titled Professor Rob Iliffe on Newton, Science and Religion (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9daxwm1hJ-4):


Professor Iliffe appears to go as far as to say that Newton's science movement was a religion by another name.
Title: Re: Religious View of the Enlightenment
Post by: Dionysios on June 13, 2020, 09:21:22 PM
In the long while since I’ve visited this forum I made two discoveries dealing with history which would probably be useful to this book and which I have mentioned in more detail in posts in the ‘Library Additions’ section.

One of these is a very positive factor dealing with the robust preservation of early Christian flat earthism in Russia for centuries after the west had caved in. I have posted there links to Slavonic manuscripts of the ‘Christian Topography’ and some accompanying history. I had long suspected this, but I never had much evidence of it until fairly recently.

Secondly, I discovered a couple of writers who described the apostasy of Western European flat earthism during the renaissance in greater detail and with more knowledge and evidence than I had previously known or suspected. These are two books by the late William Randles and also an article by Professor James J. Allegro.

W.G.L. Randles’s book ‘Unmaking of the Medieval Christian Cosmos’ in particular touches upon the anti-flat Earth role of the Protestant Reformation in league with renaissance humanists in smothering the old flat earthism which paved the way for the rise of heliocentrism during the “enlightenment”.

I’ll just observe that Randles personal views appear to resemble the science of medieval Catholicism a bit more than ancient stuff like Cosmas Indicopleustes - although the trends and science he attacks in this book are inimical to both.

https://www.amazon.com/Unmaking-Medieval-Christian-Cosmos-1500-1760/dp/1840146249

Allegro’s article does a fine job of condensing the vast information Randles collected into a shorter clearer article jam packed with razor sharp facts that overturn the very wrong status quo approach to the renaissance and proves flat earthism was actually still alive in Western Europe in the early 1500’s.
Title: Re: Religious View of the Enlightenment
Post by: Dr David Thork on June 13, 2020, 10:59:02 PM
In my own flat earth non-physical studies (which I enjoy far more than the sunsets, tides and Coriolis discussions that I no longer have any inclination to participate in), Newton always comes back to Deism and alchemy. These themes run so strongly through his work, and that links back to many other flat earth proponents ... Deism being a recurring theme in flat earth history. Deist symbols and imagery appear all over flat earth texts and art.

Many of Newton's friends were deists, and he finds himself at odds with his own beliefs and theirs, when he starts looking at gravity and motion of planets, which runs contrary to the Deist belief of a clockwork universe set in motion by God. He then can't square the circle. His gravity vs knowing there must be a creator. So he writes

Quote from: Isaac Newton
This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent Being. [...] This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called "Lord God" παντοκρατωρ [pantokratōr], or "Universal Ruler". [...] The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, [and] absolutely perfect.

Opposition to godliness is atheism in profession and idolatry in practice. Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors.

He flip flops back and forth on so many issues leaving one wondering does he end up an ally or an enemy of the flat earth society? Its a lot like Einstein. Some of his theories are a problem, but then Special Relativity is needed by flat earth. Galileo, the same problems.

I shall look forward to reading your findings. I'll warn of my own experience though, on this forum. Not many people want to discuss such things. They always want to bring it back to sunsets, perspective or some equally dull similar topic so they can try to spring an 'aha!' moment on you, because they think no one but them could have mentioned it before.  ::)
Title: Re: Religious View of the Enlightenment
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 05, 2020, 09:13:54 PM
This was mentioned in a previous thread, but Galileo clearly does some hypocritical flip-flopping when trying to justify the earth in scripture with heliocentrism.

Unifying the Universe: The Physics of Heaven and Earth - Page 488 (https://books.google.com/books?id=8kIqBgAAQBAJ&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&lpg=PA488&pg=PA488#v=onepage&q&f=false)


And at American Scientist we see:

American Scientist - Galileo’s Discoveries After 400 Years (https://www.americanscientist.org/article/galileo%E2%80%99s-discoveries-after-400-years)


Galileo says that if the Bible supports heliocentrism then we can point to the Bible as scriptual support for astronomy. And if it doesn't support heliocentrism then we can't use it.
Title: Re: Religious View of the Enlightenment
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 05, 2020, 10:39:06 PM
Astrophysicist Paul Sutter (https://www.space.com/author/paul-sutter) produced content on the 'real story of Kepler, Copernicus and the Church'.

Space.com - Going Bananas: The Real Story of Kepler, Copernicus and the Church (https://www.space.com/35772-copernicus-vs-catholic-church-real-story.html)

From the embedded video:

Title: Re: Religious Views of the Enlightenment
Post by: Tom Bishop on January 31, 2021, 06:06:51 PM
It is possible that Kepler fudged his science to support his religious arguments.

From a NYTimes article - After 400 Years, a Challenge to Kepler: He Fabricated His Data, Scholar Says (https://web.archive.org/web/20201108111651/https://www.nytimes.com/1990/01/23/science/after-400-years-a-challenge-to-kepler-he-fabricated-his-data-scholar-says.html):

Title: Re: Religious Views of the Enlightenment
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 17, 2021, 08:01:43 PM
Newton brings in "divine intervention" to explain the failings of his science.

From The Kam Story (https://books.google.com/books?id=hy48DQAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PA34#v=onepage&q&f=false) by Professor H Scott Dumas:


The University of California San Diego credits Newton with providing the laws of physics for the Solar System: (http://earthguide.ucsd.edu/virtualmuseum/ita/05_1.shtml)


Further reference here:

P. Kelly, LL. D. in his Metrology; Or, an Exposition of Weights and Measures (1816) comments on p.10 (https://books.google.com/books?id=E2kUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA10#v=onepage&q&f=false):

Title: Re: Religious Views of the Enlightenment
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 24, 2021, 01:13:55 AM
Galileo says that Catholics should not question the falsity Copernican system:

Title: Re: Religious Views of the Enlightenment
Post by: Peter Winfield on February 24, 2021, 07:15:03 AM
Galileo says that Catholics should not question the Copernican system:

The argument was not about the shape of the Earth, it was about the motion of the sun and stars.

Both the Catholics and the Copernicans agreed that the Earth was a globe, they just didn't agree on which of them was stationary.

They both knew that the motion of the stars is an insurmountable problem for a flat Earth model.
Title: Re: Religious Views of the Enlightenment
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 11, 2021, 11:53:33 PM
Curiously, despite Newton's label as "Father of Modern Science," not all physicists agree that he submitted a satisfactory manifesto on his system. On p.71 of Einstein’s Mistakes: The Human Failings of Genius (https://books.google.com/books?id=_TfuRpVLMdcC&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&lpg=PA71&pg=PA71#v=onepage&q&f=false) (NY 2008) its author, physicist Hans C Ohanian (bio (https://web.archive.org/web/20210227221341/https://wwnorton.com/author/OHANIANHANS/hanscohanian)), says that Newton was less than honest with us:

Title: Re: Religious Views of the Enlightenment
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 12, 2021, 01:24:34 AM
These collected quotes on Copernicus and the Copernican Revolution are of interest here: