Offline bj1234

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2013, 05:26:50 PM »
Last I checked, a doctor doesn't assume anything until he checks you out, gets some diagnostic tests done, then compares the results to get a diagnosis of your health.  If the doctor assumed that you did not have cancer, he would not perform any sort of tests.

He's doing it for the money.

If you would like to pay me a physician's wages to do tests and collect evidence, I would be happy to. Otherwise it is not my burden to provide evidence for the positive claims which you or anyone else has made.
No, because if he assumed you didn't have cancer, gave you a clean bill of health and sent you packing, without confirming this, he sure as hell wouldn't last very long as a physician.  It is his job to rule out diagnoses.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2013, 05:27:36 PM »
Last I checked, a doctor doesn't assume anything until he checks you out, gets some diagnostic tests done, then compares the results to get a diagnosis of your health.  If the doctor assumed that you did not have cancer, he would not perform any sort of tests.

He's doing it for the money.

If you would like to pay me a physician's wages to do tests and collect evidence, I would be happy to. Otherwise it is not my burden to provide evidence for the claims or assertions which you or anyone else has made.
Tom, payment has nothing to do with burden so please refrain from such inane comments.  They add nothing at all to the discussion. 

A doctor is responsible for performing a certain amount of diagnostic investigation before issuing a diagnosis.  If that investigation reveals no anomalies, then the diagnosis is healthy.  However, if the doctor does no such investigation, then he may miss a potentially serious condition that may lead to a malpractice law suit.
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Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #82 on: December 30, 2013, 06:56:08 PM »


In a discussion of whether schematics exist of a gravity measuring space ship built to withstand magnetic interference, the evidence is that there is no such schematic.


The evidence is that there are no schematics on Wikipedia, on your TV or in your briefcase. The same could be said of thousands of things. This does not qualify as evidence. It qualifies as ignorance until you have made an exhaustive search. What you did is similar to ostriching unfortunately.
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Offline markjo

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #83 on: December 30, 2013, 07:47:02 PM »
In a discussion of whether schematics exist of a gravity measuring space ship built to withstand magnetic interference, the evidence is that there is no such schematic.
I'm thinking that the people who designed and built that gravity measuring space ship would disagree with your "evidence".

By the way, did you ever mention which specific gravity measuring space ship you're referring to?  I ask because there have been several such probes.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 07:49:29 PM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #84 on: December 30, 2013, 08:20:14 PM »
ITT: People argue about how to argue.
I don't even care to find out what you're doing wrong, but I'm sure you're doing something wrong.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #85 on: December 30, 2013, 09:42:02 PM »
This is where you are making your faulty leap of logic.  You argument of ignorance.  Which is assuming that since it has not been proven to be true, it must be false.  You completely forget the third option of, we just do not have enough evidence to support either proving or disproving the statement.

There is no "undecided" option. There is not a lack of evidence. We have a running collection of evidence. The primary source making the claim has failed to provide any evidence to back that claim. This is evidence that the claim is false.

Quote
If you want to cast doubt on the claim that the satellite was adequate source for determining gravity variations, you can't make the claim that the satellite was not shielded.  You need to make the claim that "Since we do not know if the satellite was properly shielded, we cannot assume the accuracy of the experiment."

I really don't understand how you are not understanding this.

It's very simple. The primary source claiming that the satellite was shielded has not provided evidence of
that claim. From our experience we also find an absence of evidence.

If the only evidence we have is that is does not exist the conclusion must be, necessarily, that it does not exist. Until evidence is presented otherwise, this is the current truth.

We cannot say with honesty "there may be no evidence of ghosts, but we cannot assume that ghosts don't exist". The evidence is that ghosts do not exist, and that is the conclusion.

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #86 on: December 30, 2013, 09:58:02 PM »
It's actually simpler. You have no idea if the ESA has evidence of the shielding on the satellite because you have not even bothered to look. You do not even know if shielding is an appropriate control for the type of variable you are concerned about. You are ignorant on this matter. It is the height of disingenuousness to claim you know anything about the experiment after reading a Wikipedia page.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #87 on: December 30, 2013, 10:00:23 PM »
It's actually simpler. You have no idea if the ESA has evidence of the shielding on the satellite because you have not even bothered to look. You do not even know if shielding is an appropriate control for the type of variable you are concerned about. You are ignorant on this matter. It is the height of disingenuousness to claim you know anything about the experiment after reading a Wikipedia page.

It is not my responsibility to go out on a wild goose hunt whenever someone blabbers some claim on this forum. It is the responsibility of the claimant.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 10:05:22 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #88 on: December 30, 2013, 10:06:50 PM »
Last I checked, a doctor doesn't assume anything until he checks you out, gets some diagnostic tests done, then compares the results to get a diagnosis of your health.  If the doctor assumed that you did not have cancer, he would not perform any sort of tests.

He's doing it for the money.

If you would like to pay me a physician's wages to do tests and collect evidence, I would be happy to. Otherwise it is not my burden to provide evidence for the claims or assertions which you or anyone else has made.
Tom, payment has nothing to do with burden so please refrain from such inane comments.  They add nothing at all to the discussion. 

A doctor is responsible for performing a certain amount of diagnostic investigation before issuing a diagnosis.  If that investigation reveals no anomalies, then the diagnosis is healthy.  However, if the doctor does no such investigation, then he may miss a potentially serious condition that may lead to a malpractice law suit.

You are paying a doctor to perform a service. It is not a debate. "Burden of proof" does not apply.

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #89 on: December 30, 2013, 10:09:44 PM »
If you don't want to do so that's fine but claiming you have looked for evidence is simply not true; you have demonstrated you have not looked for evidence. This supports the position that there may be evidence and if there were, you are ignorant of it. Your unwillingness to support your claims does not make you right. You unwillingness to accept your burden of proof also does not make you right. You have been shown sources supporting the position that you owe a burden of proof for your claims that "something does not exist". If you would like I can cite sources, again, showing that a negative claim requires a burden of proof.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #90 on: December 30, 2013, 10:17:32 PM »
If you don't want to do so that's fine but claiming you have looked for evidence is simply not true; you have demonstrated you have not looked for evidence. This supports the position that there may be evidence and if there were, you are ignorant of it. Your unwillingness to support your claims does not make you right. You unwillingness to accept your burden of proof also does not make you right. You have been shown sources supporting the position that you owe a burden of proof for your claims that "something does not exist". If you would like I can cite sources, again, showing that a negative claim requires a burden of proof.

I never said that the conclusions made were ultimate truths. They are simply current truths. Based on all available evidence a truth is concluded.

It is the responsibility of the claimant to provide evidence for his claim. If he does not, then the conclusion is that there is no evidence that X exists. There is no "maybe" or "undecided". There is no evidence and that is that.

The negative claim does not incur a burden of proof because it is automatically satisfied by nature of being a negative. We saw that the schematics of a magnetically reinforces satellite did not exist when the claimant failed to provide his obligated evidence. We saw that ghosts did not exist when the claimant failed to provide his obligated evidence. The primary sources on the matter could not provide evidence of existence, and so it is evidence of absence. The burden of proof has already been met.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 10:37:19 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #91 on: December 30, 2013, 10:37:20 PM »
Well there is plenty of evidence. Here is demonstration that you were simply arguing from ignorance.

http://bit.ly/KfYczP

You never looked for evidence then claim, "Based on all available evidence a truth is concluded."  It's very bad form. On top of that you ignore the formal rules of debate by assuming that your ignorance is an absence if evidence; ignorance you flaunted and paraded as a feather in your cap.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #92 on: December 30, 2013, 10:49:46 PM »
Well there is plenty of evidence. Here is demonstration that you were simply arguing from ignorance.

http://bit.ly/KfYczP

Where is the evidence that a schematic exists of a satellite impervious to magnetic influence, as originally claimed?

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You never looked for evidence then claim, "Based on all available evidence a truth is concluded."

It is not my burden to look for evidence. The burden of proof is on the party with the positive claim. If he lacks evidence, then there is no evidence available.

The burden of proof is never on the negative claimant. I can't walk up to people and tell them "Prove that I can't fly". They would go "what do you mean prove you can't fly? Prove that you can!'" That is exactly the same thing. The implicit truth is already that I can't fly. They have never seen flying humans and I did not provide any evidence of my claim.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 11:01:13 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #93 on: December 30, 2013, 11:04:05 PM »
If you are not required to look how can you claim you have looked at all available evidence ?
Well there is plenty of evidence. Here is demonstration that you were simply arguing from ignorance.

http://bit.ly/KfYczP

Where is the evidence that a schematic exists of a satellite impervious to magnetic influence, as originally claimed?

Straw man. I was showing that you were arguing from ignorance and not based on all available evidence.

Quote
Quote
You never looked for evidence then claim, "Based on all available evidence a truth is concluded."

It is not my burden to look for evidence. The burden of proof is on the party with the positive claim. If he lacks evidence, then there is no evidence available.

The burden of proof is never on the negative claimant. I can't go up to people and tell them "Prove that I can't fly". They would go "what do you mean prove you can't fly? Prove that you can!'" That is exactly the same thing. The implicit truth is already that I can't fly. They have never seen flying humans.

The rest is getting boring. You have been shown evidence falsifying your position and you ignore it.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #94 on: December 30, 2013, 11:14:58 PM »
If you are not required to look how can you claim you have looked at all available evidence ?

It is the claimant's responsibility to present the evidence. I looked at it.

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #95 on: December 30, 2013, 11:20:28 PM »
No you did not. You did not read anything other than a Wikipedia page. There were sources cited in that that linked you to sources about presentations of research findings, etc..  That was presented. You did not read them. Stop pretending you were diligent.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #96 on: December 30, 2013, 11:23:10 PM »
No you did not. You did not read anything other than a Wikipedia page. There were sources cited in that that linked you to sources about presentations of research findings, etc..  That was presented. You did not read them. Stop pretending you were diligent.

It is the claimant's burden to post the relevant material here for all to see. I am not obligated to go on a wild goose hunts in search of material, which may or may not exist, to support random claims posted on this forum.

I would suggest to stop trying to shift the burden and start posting evidence for your claims. It is the responsibility of the claimant to demonstrate their claim, and everyone knows it.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 11:32:21 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #97 on: December 30, 2013, 11:35:24 PM »
I showed that you were ignorant of "all available evidence" contrary to your claim. What more need I do to show you were arguing from ignorance?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #98 on: December 30, 2013, 11:37:12 PM »
I showed that you were ignorant of "all available evidence" contrary to your claim. What more need I do to show you were arguing from ignorance?

I looked at all available evidence in the discussion. Obviously I am not looking at all available evidence in the world. That's for the claimant to gather and present. It is not my responsibility to prove his claim for him.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2013, 11:58:24 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Is it possible to prove a negative?
« Reply #99 on: December 30, 2013, 11:38:13 PM »
Thanks for shifting the goalposts.
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