[beardo]

Even though I'm a Batman, I am fully capable of using a regular human toilet.

[Thork]

Even though I'm a Batman, I am fully capable of using a regular human toilet.

It is difficult to shit on target, hanging upside down though.

[Saddam Hussein]

I have no problem drawing a line in the sand at male and female.  Pick one and stick with it.

[beardo]

Even though I'm a Batman, I am fully capable of using a regular human toilet.

It is difficult to shit on target, hanging upside down though.

I don't hang upside down when I take a crap. Who does that?

[fappenhosen]

Today I tucked my peen between my legs when I got out of the shower and did a little dance in front of the mirror.

[Ghost Spaghetti]

I don't see why. Society doesn't magically change their expectations of you just because you go trans (except, of course, for the presence of transphobes)

Actually, if one were to transition from male to female there is an expectationt that you start doing 'female' things like shaving one's legs or wearing makeup, despite the fact that hairy legs can be had by men or women, trans or otherwise. One thing that a trans woman I know has said is that she feels more pressure to 'dress up smartly' as a woman than as a man. it's perfectly acceptable for a man to go down to the shops looking like a slob, but a woman draws ire. Of course this is a women issue rather than just a trans-woman's issue, but it shows the change in expectations society has if you identify by a different gender. Doubtless a female-to-male trans man would be mocked if he ordered a sparkly fruit cocktail in a bar instead of a beer or something.

Historically, perhaps, but nowadays it's pretty clear cut. Most people talk about sex, not gender.

For the vast majority, sure, but then I'd guess it always has been. If it were, there wouldn't be the fascination with 'ladyboys' or Conchita Wurst's beard/dress combo or this thread. There is a minority of people for whom gender, sexuality, and physiological sex is an issue.

[DuckDodgers]

So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society.  This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.

[Ghost Spaghetti]

So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society.  This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.

It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?

[Snupes]

Because it's weird to me and things I find weird are bad and people are wrong for doing them

[Pete Svarrior]

It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?

I don't think "problem" is the right word. I might think that some of people's actions are fundamentally misguided without having any issue with them doing it in principle. It doesn't even have to be anything big - I feel like that about smoking. I think smoking is complete nonsense, but if you want to do it, meh, fine. As you say, it's their lives and their decisions.

Nonetheless, while I wouldn't actively stand in anyone's way to transitioning, I do wonder about the reasoning (both logical and emotional, if that even makes sense) and justification behind it.

[DuckDodgers]

So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society.  This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.

It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?

I'm merely pointing out that the justification behind it is basically "because other people say I'm a girl and not a boy", at least in what I said.  You seem very defensive about even having an honest discussion about this.  I personally feel that the preferable option would be to address the issue where it is, the mind.  I'm sure there would still be cases where an individual would feel wrong in their body, and I don't have a problem with having the procedure.  I just have an issue with teens definitively being diagnosed with this when they are in their most fickle stage of life and their sexual orientation may change from month to month.

[Rama Set]

Gender dysphoria is not a mental illness.  It has a psychological component but that is thought be caused during brain development in utero.

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Causes.aspx

[spoon]

Nonetheless, while I wouldn't actively stand in anyone's way to transitioning, I do wonder about the reasoning (both logical and emotional, if that even makes sense) and justification behind it.

This was the point I tried to make a few pages back.

Anecdotally, my closest friend's brother is transitioning to female. He is planning to begin hormone therapy within half a year. I am extremely close with their family, and all members of said family are in shock over what is going on, not to mention extremely upset. None of them saw any signs of gender dysphoria, and stories from his past that he mentioned that he claimed "pointed out that he was a girl" were utter bullshit.

My opinion is that he is depressed, hopeless, and feels as if he has failed as a man. He has no job, his parents split when he was in middle school, he seeks approval from his father but doesn't get it etc...

He feels as if he has failed as a man, so the logical conclusion is that he was never meant to be a man.

My question to transgenders is this: If "gender" is how you feel about yourself, why must you change your outsides and mannerisms to achieve satisfaction? Why not just embrace whatever qualities and characteristics you have, and let your physical body be secondary?

[Rama Set]

No offense but do you think your opinion should count much in medical matters?  As I pointed out above there is a physiological pathology to gender dysphoria, it is not simply a body image issue at least in true cases. I am sure there are false positives and I hope they are few and far between.

[spoon]

No offense but do you think your opinion should count much in medical matters?  As I pointed out above there is a physiological pathology to gender dysphoria, it is not simply a body image issue at least in true cases. I am sure there are false positives and I hope they are few and far between.

I never said my opinion matters. I just gave my opinion.

Also, I was just giving a personal example. I don't believe all transgender cases occur this way.

[Snupes]

So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society.  This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.

It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?

I'm merely pointing out that the justification behind it is basically "because other people say I'm a girl and not a boy"

I think most of the time it has very little to do with what "other people" say and more how the person themself feels.

[DuckDodgers]

So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society.  This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.

It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?

I'm merely pointing out that the justification behind it is basically "because other people say I'm a girl and not a boy"

I think most of the time it has very little to do with what "other people" say and more how the person themself feels.

If you would have at least quoted my entire sentence you would have seen I was speaking about that one train of thought, which seems to be the most popular among those posting here.

[Ghost Spaghetti]

So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society.  This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.

It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?

I'm merely pointing out that the justification behind it is basically "because other people say I'm a girl and not a boy", at least in what I said.  You seem very defensive about even having an honest discussion about this.  I personally feel that the preferable option would be to address the issue where it is, the mind.  I'm sure there would still be cases where an individual would feel wrong in their body, and I don't have a problem with having the procedure.  I just have an issue with teens definitively being diagnosed with this when they are in their most fickle stage of life and their sexual orientation may change from month to month.

Getting treatment for transition is usually a very long, very painful process, with doctors acting as 'gatekeepers' between the patient and the full raft of treatments. Normally you have to demonstrate that you've lived as your desired gender for so long before they'll even consider you, even then very few go straight for 'nip/tuck' surgery, most begin a long, arduous process of medication for hormone replacement and testosterone/ estrogen blockers. I doubt anybody goes through transition lightly.

And if I seem defensive it's because I have friends who have or who are transitioning and some of the horror stories about abuse and bullying are genuinely upsetting.

[rooster]

And if I seem defensive it's because I have friends who have or who are transitioning and some of the horror stories about abuse and bullying are genuinely upsetting.

Well no one here seems like the bullying type so there's no need to be defensive. We're just having a conversation to better understand the thought process or social reasons behind this movement.

[Thork]

So gender expectations seem to be the problem and trying to fit what a gender is to society.  This seems like horrible justification for permanent modifications.

It isn't your body they're modifying - what's the problem?

I'm merely pointing out that the justification behind it is basically "because other people say I'm a girl and not a boy", at least in what I said.  You seem very defensive about even having an honest discussion about this.  I personally feel that the preferable option would be to address the issue where it is, the mind.  I'm sure there would still be cases where an individual would feel wrong in their body, and I don't have a problem with having the procedure.  I just have an issue with teens definitively being diagnosed with this when they are in their most fickle stage of life and their sexual orientation may change from month to month.

Getting treatment for transition is usually a very long, very painful process, with doctors acting as 'gatekeepers' between the patient and the full raft of treatments. Normally you have to demonstrate that you've lived as your desired gender for so long before they'll even consider you, even then very few go straight for 'nip/tuck' surgery, most begin a long, arduous process of medication for hormone replacement and testosterone/ estrogen blockers. I doubt anybody goes through transition lightly.

And if I seem defensive it's because I have friends who have or who are transitioning and some of the horror stories about abuse and bullying are genuinely upsetting.

Its not a transition. Its genital mutilation. They don't change your sex. They butcher your genitals. For many that's all they want. Like an extreme form of cutting. Its just attention.
You are what you are. Stop whinging. I'm not an 18 year old boy anymore as much as I wish I was. Knowing what I know now, and looking the way I did then ... Jesus Christ I'd stink of pussy. :-(