Thork

Merkin Executions
« on: July 25, 2014, 03:50:15 PM »
So the USA decided to execute someone and it took a staggering 2 hours for them to die.

Quote from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28457460
The execution should have taken 10 minutes, his lawyers said, but Wood, 55, gasped more than 600 times before he died.
It ended up taking almost 2 hours to 'humanly' kill him.

Now this wouldn't be so bad if they hadn't used the exact same drugs on someone earlier in the year and the result was
Quote from: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28457460
And in January in Ohio, Dennis McGuire appeared to gasp, snort and choke for 25 minutes after he was injected with a two-drug combination of midazolam and hydromorphone.

Now I don't want to go into why the USA is amongst all the other backward countries in having a death penalty because I have a number of questions.


1. How is it, an industrial nation the size of the USA can't manufacture its own drugs and has to buy them from European manufacturers who don't even have a market at home for this?
2. For a country that loves guns so much, why don't you just shoot criminals?
3. Why is it you can get a vet anywhere in America to come to your ranch and inject a horse that kills it in under 2 seconds, but you can't use these same 'humane' drugs on a person and instead you eek out their demise for over 2 hours?
4. Why is it in hundreds of years, you still haven't figured out how to kill someone? In England we used to hang people. In France, they built a guillotine. In the Middle-east they use a firing squad. Why is America so shit at killing criminals?

This whole fiasco is massively embarrassing for the USA. Not only do you still have a death sentence (might as well have stocks and ducking stools), but you also can't even manage to kill a person properly because your manufacturers are useless and your lawyers prevent you from doing anything properly.

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Offline Tintagel

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Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2014, 03:53:48 PM »
I'm actually with Thork on this.  It's an embarrassment.  There's no need for the death penalty.  Unfortunately, those of us who realize this are only starting to have a voice vs. the plutocratic throwbacks who run the country.

Offline Socker

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Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2014, 12:20:52 AM »
Out of curiosity, what do you see as wrong about a death penalty?

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2014, 01:31:08 AM »
1. How is it, an industrial nation the size of the USA can't manufacture its own drugs and has to buy them from European manufacturers who don't even have a market at home for this?

-Because the regulations are too expensive.  They send it to other places with less strict regulations.

2. For a country that loves guns so much, why don't you just shoot criminals?
-It's a weird set of laws to appease the "don't kill people" crowd.  First off, they don't want a human to directly kill the prisoner.  Secondly, a bullet isn't 100% likely to kill someone.  And third, if you CAN kill someone definitely with a bullet, it's messy.  We like our undertakers to have less work to do.

3. Why is it you can get a vet anywhere in America to come to your ranch and inject a horse that kills it in under 2 seconds, but you can't use these same 'humane' drugs on a person and instead you eek out their demise for over 2 hours?
-To appease the "don't kill them" crowd, the drugs are designed to be very peaceful.  We don't actually care about animals and if they die of suffocation, we don't care.  Humans, however, are different for some reason.  The drugs do a combination of things that end up making the victim fall asleep then die.  Or something like that.

4. Why is it in hundreds of years, you still haven't figured out how to kill someone? In England we used to hang people. In France, they built a guillotine. In the Middle-east they use a firing squad. Why is America so shit at killing criminals?
See above.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Ghost of V

Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2014, 01:38:51 AM »
If they're trying to appease the "don't kill crowd" then why don't we just stop killing people altogether? Its pathetic that they think chems are more humane than a point blank bullet to the brain. You're still killing people regardless.

Also, what makes cops so important that killing one nets you the death penalty while killing an average joe just lands you in prison for most of your life? Stop assigning more worth to certain people via laws. Our whole justice system is a corrupt double-standard.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2014, 02:53:01 AM »
I would be fine with firing squad or guillotine as execution methods, but apparently we have to kill people with injections to feel "civilized."


Thork

Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2014, 08:34:30 AM »
First off, they don't want a human to directly kill the prisoner.
Who administers the injection?

  Secondly, a bullet isn't 100% likely to kill someone.
Point blank, its a lot more likely to kill someone than these injections, for which many do survive.


And third, if you CAN kill someone definitely with a bullet, it's messy.  We like our undertakers to have less work to do.
Because there is no plastic sheeting in the united states.

If you don't know the answers, Dave, that's ok. You don't have to try to make up desperate versions.

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2014, 12:36:09 PM »
First off, they don't want a human to directly kill the prisoner.
Who administers the injection?
Whoops.  It seems that most states stopped with the comouterized injections for fear of mechanical failure.  Now they have a group of people who can't see the prisoner inject drugs.  However its a blind injection and all but one inject into a bag.  So at the end of the day, no one really knows who killed the prisoner.

Quote
  Secondly, a bullet isn't 100% likely to kill someone.
Point blank, its a lot more likely to kill someone than these injections, for which many do survive.
Ummmm.... What?  Only one man has survived a lethal injection.  One.  How do you get "many"?

Quote
And third, if you CAN kill someone definitely with a bullet, it's messy.  We like our undertakers to have less work to do.
Because there is no plastic sheeting in the united states.
*sigh*
Not messy for the room, messy for the body.  As in a gaping fucking hole in the head.  Also, people watch them die.  Its required by law to have witnesses.  So yeah, watching someone have a bullet blow open their skull is not the best thing to see.

Quote
If you don't know the answers, Dave, that's ok. You don't have to try to make up desperate versions.
For the record, I figure CO poisoning would be best.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Offline model 29

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Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2014, 04:32:47 PM »
1. How is it, an industrial nation the size of the USA can't manufacture its own drugs and has to buy them from European manufacturers who don't even have a market at home for this?
2. For a country that loves guns so much, why don't you just shoot criminals?
3. Why is it you can get a vet anywhere in America to come to your ranch and inject a horse that kills it in under 2 seconds, but you can't use these same 'humane' drugs on a person and instead you eek out their demise for over 2 hours?
4. Why is it in hundreds of years, you still haven't figured out how to kill someone? In England we used to hang people. In France, they built a guillotine. In the Middle-east they use a firing squad. Why is America so shit at killing criminals?

For the same reason we managed to ruin a gas-can, which until recently used a simple spout and vent and poured liquid just fine, but is now an over-engineered piece of crap that is annoying to use, leaks, and doesn't pour as well as it used to.

Left-wingers.

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2014, 04:58:54 PM »
1. How is it, an industrial nation the size of the USA can't manufacture its own drugs and has to buy them from European manufacturers who don't even have a market at home for this?
2. For a country that loves guns so much, why don't you just shoot criminals?
3. Why is it you can get a vet anywhere in America to come to your ranch and inject a horse that kills it in under 2 seconds, but you can't use these same 'humane' drugs on a person and instead you eek out their demise for over 2 hours?
4. Why is it in hundreds of years, you still haven't figured out how to kill someone? In England we used to hang people. In France, they built a guillotine. In the Middle-east they use a firing squad. Why is America so shit at killing criminals?

For the same reason we managed to ruin a gas-can, which until recently used a simple spout and vent and poured liquid just fine, but is now an over-engineered piece of crap that is annoying to use, leaks, and doesn't pour as well as it used to.

Left-wingers.

Wait... what?
What gas cans are YOU using?  And why? 
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2014, 05:18:33 PM »
I think he's talking about the model that requires you to hold down a lever on the nozzle to pour anything. They're pretty common and they are terrible.
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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2014, 05:22:18 PM »
I think he's talking about the model that requires you to hold down a lever on the nozzle to pour anything. They're pretty common and they are terrible.
I've never seen those.
This is what I see as common:
http://www.zoro.com/g/00091544/k-G4288873?utm_source=google_shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Google_Shopping_Feed&gclid=Cj0KEQjwo82eBRCR1Yr2u-G-sK8BEiQAbrSjVEOlul530AaHIHgMLOQPPwirGpWC_YHbWFFtyOho5P0aApzy8P8HAQ#G4288864
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Offline model 29

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Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2014, 05:37:35 PM »
Wait... what?
What gas cans are YOU using?  And why?
Google 'EPA gas can spouts', also I try not to use them.  I was cussing plenty when I used a 5 gallon can to fill my quad (which almost takes three hands for that size when it's full), only to have the flexible part (which is loosely attached to the valve assembly) get caught in the opening as I tilted back when the tank was full, fall off into the tank, and sink to the bottom.  Luckily had a mechanical grabber that allowed me to fish it out.

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Offline rooster

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Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2014, 05:53:15 PM »
It is strange that it's not more similar to how we kill pets. Sure, sometimes pets have seizures and don't die well but I think it's still faster than 25 min or 2 hours.

When my dog was put down they put him to sleep first and then after the final shot he died in a matter of seconds. It was completely peaceful. As long as the quantities are scaled up, why is it so much easier to kill a dog than a person?

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2014, 05:54:50 PM »
Wait... what?
What gas cans are YOU using?  And why?
Google 'EPA gas can spouts', also I try not to use them.  I was cussing plenty when I used a 5 gallon can to fill my quad (which almost takes three hands for that size when it's full), only to have the flexible part (which is loosely attached to the valve assembly) get caught in the opening as I tilted back when the tank was full, fall off into the tank, and sink to the bottom.  Luckily had a mechanical grabber that allowed me to fish it out.

Oooohhh.  I thought those were just some new version that no one cared about.  Didn't realize they were EPA required to be the standard now.

Well, good thing I don't need one.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Thork

Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2014, 06:04:03 PM »
It is strange that it's not more similar to how we kill pets. Sure, sometimes pets have seizures and don't die well but I think it's still faster than 25 min or 2 hours.

When my dog was put down they put him to sleep first and then after the final shot he died in a matter of seconds. It was completely peaceful. As long as the quantities are scaled up, why is it so much easier to kill a dog than a person?
Precisely. They kill horses and cattle that way when hey need to be put down.

Dave, can you take your 'gas-can' talk to CN?

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Offline Rushy

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Re: On the notion of gas cans
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2014, 07:22:49 PM »
1. Acquire EPA gas can
2. Use boxcutter to make slit in top
3. ?? ? ??
4. Profit. Use duck tape to seal slit for later use
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 07:24:46 PM by Irushwithscvs »

Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2014, 06:28:02 AM »
This might be why firing squad isn't used in the US, though why they aim for the heart instead of the brain is beyond me.  http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/descriptions-execution-methods#firing
Quote
Firing Squad

Firing squad still remains a method of execution in Utah if chosen by an inmate before lethal injection became the sole means of execution. The most recent execution by this method was that of John Albert Taylor. By his own choosing, Taylor was executed by firing squad in Utah on January 26, 1996. For execution by this method, the inmate is typically bound to a chair with leather straps across his waist and head, in front of an oval-shaped canvas wall. The chair is surrounded by sandbags to absorb the inmate's blood. A black hood is pulled over the inmate's head. A doctor locates the inmate's heart with a stethoscope and pins a circular white cloth target over it. Standing in an enclosure 20 feet away, five shooters are armed with .30 caliber rifles loaded with single rounds. One of the shooters is given blank rounds. Each of the shooters aims his rifle through a slot in the canvas and fires at the inmate. (Weisberg, 1991) The prisoner dies as a result of blood loss caused by rupture of the heart or a large blood vessel, or tearing of the lungs. The person shot loses consciousness when shock causes a fall in the supply of blood to the brain. If the shooters miss the heart, by accident or intention, the prisoner bleeds to death slowly. (Hillman, 1992 and Weisberg, 1991)
I think I've also heard and argument that the inmate feels the bullet strike them for a split second even if shot in the head, and the pain it causes makes it inhumane.

Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2014, 08:35:54 AM »
I administer midazolam. It's a prn for epileptic seizures.
Tying them to a stake and letting the sea drown them would be more humane. There are better ways than ineffective injections.

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Online Rama Set

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Re: Merkin Executions
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2014, 12:33:19 PM »
Like don't execute people. It's been shown pretty conclusively that it is an utterly ineffective method of punishment.
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