[Luke 22:35-38]

If god really is all powerful and all knowing then all evilness actually is a result of his own actions. If god created the universe, god also created the evilness within it.

Imagine a scenario in which I sell a nuclear bomb to a terrorist who then uses it to destroy an entire city. Would you hold me responsible as well?

Actually he made us with free will and in turn turned evil.

[Rushy]

If god really is all powerful and all knowing then all evilness actually is a result of his own actions. If god created the universe, god also created the evilness within it.

Imagine a scenario in which I sell a nuclear bomb to a terrorist who then uses it to destroy an entire city. Would you hold me responsible as well?

Actually he made us with free will and in turn turned evil.

No such thing as free will if an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good being exists.

[Luke 22:35-38]

If god really is all powerful and all knowing then all evilness actually is a result of his own actions. If god created the universe, god also created the evilness within it.

Imagine a scenario in which I sell a nuclear bomb to a terrorist who then uses it to destroy an entire city. Would you hold me responsible as well?

Actually he made us with free will and in turn turned evil.

No such thing as free will if an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good being exists.

Yes there is. I can know you're going to post without controlling you to do it. I can know if I gave you the choice between your favorite food and you least favorite you'll choose your favorite but still don't control your outcome.

[Rushy]

If god really is all powerful and all knowing then all evilness actually is a result of his own actions. If god created the universe, god also created the evilness within it.

Imagine a scenario in which I sell a nuclear bomb to a terrorist who then uses it to destroy an entire city. Would you hold me responsible as well?

Actually he made us with free will and in turn turned evil.

No such thing as free will if an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good being exists.

Yes there is. I can know you're going to post without controlling you to do it. I can know if I gave you the choice between your favorite food and you least favorite you'll choose your favorite but still don't control your outcome.

Creating a being in which you've already predetermined its actions is not free will. If God exists, human beings are no different than robots. You were made the way you were by a being who already knew what you would do and made you in the exact way that would result in you doing a specific action.

Predestination and free will are philosophical and theological paradoxes. Saying "no they aren't" is not only ridiculously incorrect, but going against thousands of years of philosophical theories. If you want to prove the free will paradox wrong, you're going to need a lot more than what you're giving me.

[Luke 22:35-38]

If god really is all powerful and all knowing then all evilness actually is a result of his own actions. If god created the universe, god also created the evilness within it.

Imagine a scenario in which I sell a nuclear bomb to a terrorist who then uses it to destroy an entire city. Would you hold me responsible as well?

Actually he made us with free will and in turn turned evil.

No such thing as free will if an all-powerful, all-knowing and all-good being exists.

Yes there is. I can know you're going to post without controlling you to do it. I can know if I gave you the choice between your favorite food and you least favorite you'll choose your favorite but still don't control your outcome.

Creating a being in which you've already predetermined its actions is not free will. If God exists, human beings are no different than robots. You were made the way you were by a being who already knew what you would do and made you in the exact way that would result in you doing a specific action.

Your first sentence is your first mistake. He doesn't predestined us, he knows what were going to do. Again this harkened to my analogy. I knew you was going to respond, I didn't forced you to respond.

Predestination and free will are philosophical and theological paradoxes. Saying "no they aren't" is not only ridiculously incorrect, but going against thousands of years of philosophical theories. If you want to prove the free will paradox wrong, you're going to need a lot more than what you're giving me.

You're assuming that God predestines people.

[Lord Dave]

"God has a plan for everyone."
Sounds like predestin to me

[Luke 22:35-38]

"God has a plan for everyone."
Sounds like predestin to me

God has a will for everyone.

[Rushy]

Your first sentence is your first mistake. He doesn't predestined us, he knows what were going to do. Again this harkened to my analogy. I knew you was going to respond, I didn't forced you to respond.

You can't say that god created people and knows what they will do while simultaneously saying predestination doesn't exist. You described predestination to me and said "yeah, but it's not predestination, though." If an outcome is known, then it is predefined. If someone already knows what you're going to do then you can't choose to do something else.

An all-powerful, all-knowing god creating humanity is no different than a human creating a robot. The robot has a predefined set of activities it will perform the moment it comes into being and it is not possible for it to perform those activities outside its given parameters. It doesn't matter if the robot has just enough self-awareness to believe it is doing those given tasks of its own volition. Does a Roomba (a vaccuum robot), for example, choose to stop at walls? Does it think "I don't want to run into this!" and stop? Could it run into a wall even if it desired to do so? The illusion of free will exists if we don't know the Roomba is a robot. If I gave it to someone who is exceptionally gullible and told them it has self-awareness, they might think it really does and makes its own decisions. However, given the knowledge that it has a creator who knew exactly what it would do, we know the Roomba really had no free will at all.

[Luke 22:35-38]

Your first sentence is your first mistake. He doesn't predestined us, he knows what were going to do. Again this harkened to my analogy. I knew you was going to respond, I didn't forced you to respond.

You can't say that god created people and knows what they will do while simultaneously saying predestination doesn't exist. You described predestination to me and said "yeah, but it's not predestination, though." If an outcome is known, then it is predefined. If someone already knows what you're going to do then you can't choose to do something else.

But you responded when I knew you would, yet you had the choice not to.

An all-powerful, all-knowing god creating humanity is no different than a human creating a robot. The robot has a predefined set of activities it will perform the moment it comes into being and it is not possible for it to perform those activities outside its given parameters. It doesn't matter if the robot has just enough self-awareness to believe it is doing those given tasks of its own volition. Does a Roomba (a vaccuum robot), for example, choose to stop at walls? Does it think "I don't want to run into this!" and stop? Could it run into a wall even if it desired to do so? The illusion of free will exists if we don't know the Roomba is a robot. If I gave it to someone who is exceptionally gullible and told them it has self-awareness, they might think it really does and makes its own decisions. However, given the knowledge that it has a creator who knew exactly what it would do, we know the Roomba really had no free will at all.

But we are not made to be robots.

[Rushy]

But you responded when I knew you would, yet you had the choice not to.

You're conflating the subjective ability to predict likely events with the ability to objectively know the future. For example, I too can say it is likely that you will reply to this, but to say "I know you will reply to this" is not only outrageously pretentious, but completely incorrect.

A god-like being would be able to say something on the order of "you will eat a hamburger for lunch tomorrow" and nothing in the universe would be able to change that objective fact. You'd eat a hamburger for lunch. You would, of course, believe you chose to eat it. You wouldn't get to choose to not eat a hamburger for lunch.

But we are not made to be robots.

Indeed.

[Luke 22:35-38]

But you responded when I knew you would, yet you had the choice not to.

You're conflating the subjective ability to predict likely events with the ability to objectively know the future. For example, I too can say it is likely that you will reply to this, but to say "I know you will reply to this" is not only outrageously pretentious, but completely incorrect.

Me predicting that you were going to reply is a small sample of God's omniscience. Not only did he knew that you was going to reply but he also knew exactly what you're going to say. Yet at the same time he doesn't control what you say. Just because you know ahead of time what is going to happen doesn't mean he controls you. For example I know that if you walk off Grand Canyon you'll fall yet I don't control you or gravity.

A god-like being would be able to say something on the order of "you will eat a hamburger for lunch tomorrow" and nothing in the universe would be able to change that objective fact. You'd eat a hamburger for lunch. You would, of course, believe you chose to eat it. You wouldn't get to choose to not eat a hamburger for lunch.

How it works is he knows your choice, not that he destined your choice.

But we are not made to be robots.

Indeed.
[/quote]

[Lord Dave]

If God knows all then everything he did when creating the universe (and humans) was deliberate.

We have no free will, just the illusion of free will.

God made you post your reply by every action he took when creating humanity and if you believe God makes people, then you too.

Like God makes a woman sterile so she has to suffer so her husband leaves her so she finds another guy that works out to God's plan.

Again, the illusion of free will: we think we make the choices, but God made sure we'd do what he wanted since the dawn of time.

[Rushy]

Me predicting that you were going to reply is a small sample of God's omniscience. Not only did he knew that you was going to reply but he also knew exactly what you're going to say. Yet at the same time he doesn't control what you say. Just because you know ahead of time what is going to happen doesn't mean he controls you. For example I know that if you walk off Grand Canyon you'll fall yet I don't control you or gravity.

A god-like being would be able to say something on the order of "you will eat a hamburger for lunch tomorrow" and nothing in the universe would be able to change that objective fact. You'd eat a hamburger for lunch. You would, of course, believe you chose to eat it. You wouldn't get to choose to not eat a hamburger for lunch.

How it works is he knows your choice, not that he destined your choice.

If an objective future exists, then you don't get to make a choice because there are no choices to make. Your future already exists.

If someone truly knows what you're going to do with your life, then your life has effectively already happened. Back to the hamburger analogy: you don't get to not eat a hamburger. The future is already set in stone by an omnipotent creator. Free will doesn't functionally exist because the ability to choose doesn't exist. Your life would essentially be no different from a movie. A universe where the characters make the same decisions over and over again, even if given the illusion of choice. In movies, characters contemplate their choices, but they always choose the same thing because the choice is an illusion. Their fate was decided the moment the film was created.

[Luke 22:35-38]

Maybe this will explain it better.

https://carm.org/if-god-knows-our-free-will-choices-do-we-still-have-free-will

[Rushy]

Maybe this will explain it better.

https://carm.org/if-god-knows-our-free-will-choices-do-we-still-have-free-will

The problem with that article is it speaks solely about the knowledge aspect. If God was simply a being who knows everything, they would be correct, knowledge doesn't imply a lack of free will. The free will paradox arises when you admit a belief that God created everything. The universe was made specifically by a being with knowledge of what would happen in that universe. This creates an illusion of free will and leads back to my hamburger/movie analogy.

[İntikam]

I really believe God but this avatar video is confusing.



There always will be a possibility about God is a program like this and this live is a nonsence except a strong dream.

[Luke 22:35-38]

Maybe this will explain it better.

https://carm.org/if-god-knows-our-free-will-choices-do-we-still-have-free-will

The problem with that article is it speaks solely about the knowledge aspect. If God was simply a being who knows everything, they would be correct, knowledge doesn't imply a lack of free will. The free will paradox arises when you admit a belief that God created everything. The universe was made specifically by a being with knowledge of what would happen in that universe. This creates an illusion of free will and leads back to my hamburger/movie analogy.

Your mom and dad created you and know you pretty well to
Know your likes and dislikes but they don't control you.

[Lord Dave]

Maybe this will explain it better.

https://carm.org/if-god-knows-our-free-will-choices-do-we-still-have-free-will

The problem with that article is it speaks solely about the knowledge aspect. If God was simply a being who knows everything, they would be correct, knowledge doesn't imply a lack of free will. The free will paradox arises when you admit a belief that God created everything. The universe was made specifically by a being with knowledge of what would happen in that universe. This creates an illusion of free will and leads back to my hamburger/movie analogy.

Your mom and dad created you and know you pretty well to
Know your likes and dislikes but they don't control you.

Yes but their knowledge comes from experience and it isn't even perfectly accurate nor accounts for things kept hidden.

Also, they created him via random chance.  They had no genetic control.

[Rama Set]

Maybe this will explain it better.

https://carm.org/if-god-knows-our-free-will-choices-do-we-still-have-free-will

The problem with that article is it speaks solely about the knowledge aspect. If God was simply a being who knows everything, they would be correct, knowledge doesn't imply a lack of free will. The free will paradox arises when you admit a belief that God created everything. The universe was made specifically by a being with knowledge of what would happen in that universe. This creates an illusion of free will and leads back to my hamburger/movie analogy.

Your mom and dad created you and know you pretty well to
Know your likes and dislikes but they don't control you.

God knows more than your likes and dislikes: he knows what is in your deepest thoughts, what is in your heart, he knows what you are going to do, and he knows every event leading up to and proceeding from that action in every detail conceivable and inconceivable.  This analogy of yours is not even close to a good comparison.

[Jura-Glenlivet]

And.. if your parents then told you that you had to worship them, that you were full of sin, turned one of your siblings to salt for looking over their shoulder, made you believe you had to sacrifice one of your children to prove your obedience, I'm guessing they wouldn't be deemed suitable parents.