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Offline Tau

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And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« on: July 20, 2014, 02:00:01 AM »
So after 8 months or so the Zetetic Council in its infinite wisdom has seen it fit to produce a first draft of an official FES constitution. Since non-council members can't post in the board (and I'll be surprised if more than one member of the council ever gives an opinion on it), I thought I'd make a thread here.

So feel free to give suggestions and concerns with regard to the first draft. Here's the link:
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1725.msg35908#new
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Saddam Hussein

Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2014, 03:38:34 AM »
For what I believe to be about the fifteenth time, the Zetetic Council runs the society, not the website.  The whole section about how the website is run won't work.

Ghost of V

Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2014, 03:47:25 AM »
Doesn't Daniel run the society? If he supersedes the Zetetic council's rulings and you guys don't control the forum, what are you doing exactly? All the while, you are attempting to patch things up with Daniel and reintegrate the two divisions, but the Zetetic Council is trying to do Daniel's job. Is this not a conflict?

I'm all for combining the two groups and living in harmony, but I think some people need to get some perspective on who is doing what and how much of a backseat you guys will be taking if Daniel does rule once again.

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Offline markjo

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2014, 03:52:23 AM »
Well, we all know that Daniel doesn't do much of anything and we really haven't seen the council do much of anything either, so it seems to me that they're pretty much equally useless.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2014, 04:14:09 AM »
Doesn't Daniel run the society? If he supersedes the Zetetic council's rulings and you guys don't control the forum, what are you doing exactly? All the while, you are attempting to patch things up with Daniel and reintegrate the two divisions, but the Zetetic Council is trying to do Daniel's job. Is this not a conflict?

I'm all for combining the two groups and living in harmony, but I think some people need to get some perspective on who is doing what and how much of a backseat you guys will be taking if Daniel does rule once again.

We are suggesting to Daniel that he keeps doing what he has been doing. What the Council wants to do and what Daniel want to do have very little to do with each other. I doubt that he cares if we organize projects to improve the wiki, create a video, do a reddit AMA, start on an annotated version of Earth Not a Globe, or any of the other things that have been mentioned we would like to work on.

If Daniel wants to get involved in discussions, projects, display leadership, more power to him. I suggested opening up the Zetetic Council forum to official members so that there can be in depth discussion on these matters, flesh ideas out, and people would be more motivated to help.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 04:22:59 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tau

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2014, 04:24:42 AM »
For what I believe to be about the fifteenth time, the Zetetic Council runs the society, not the website.  The whole section about how the website is run won't work.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. It's stated pretty plainly in the document that the council has nothing to do with the website.
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Offline xasop

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2014, 06:16:02 AM »
I'm not sure what you're talking about. It's stated pretty plainly in the document that the council has nothing to do with the website.

Except for this bit:

Administrators may be removed [...] by a four fifths vote of the Zetetic Council. Replacements will be voted on by all official members.

If you're going to legislate yourself into a position of influence over the forum, this constitution must be voted on by the entire community, not just the Zetetic Council. Otherwise, we will not recognise it, and any attempt to vote out an administrator will simply be ignored.

I also find this concerning:

Nominees may be selected by any member, although the Council holds the right to veto nominations for any reason. The council also has the right to revoke voting privileges from a member.

This allows a hypothetical corrupt Council to rig elections lawfully and openly. Nobody outside the Council could do anything about it, because:

After ratification, this constitution may only be altered by the process of amendment. A Zetetic Council member must put forward the change to the council. Following this, the change must be agreed upon by a four fifths majority.

If this is going to work, the Zetetic Council needs to answer to the community, not the other way around.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 06:18:03 AM by Parsifal »
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2014, 11:41:07 AM »
Parsifal is right.  I understand you want to keep non flat earthers and trolls from winning a popularity contest but that isn't the way to go.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Lord Wilmore

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2014, 02:04:32 PM »
I don't know if my advice is wanted, but I'm going to butt in anyway (and in a way that is not connected to 'other goings on'). I'll butt out if desired, obviously.


I think this is a noble endeavour to embed the members in the society's mission. The main problem with this constitution (and specifically the section on the Zetetic Council) is that it does not stay true to the spirit of that endeavour.


When establishing these kind of initiatives, it is of course necessary to try and engineer the desired outcome into the structure. However, by engineering the desired outcome into the structure, the structure is necessarily given bias, because it is prejudiced against certain outcomes. All such systems have some kind of bias, and that is unavoidable. The question is whether those biases are healthy or unhealthy.


In my view, the structure described above has a very unhealthy bias: in its attempt to prevent undesirable outcomes for the community, it gives the council the power to prevent outcomes that are undesirable for the council. Such a structure is far too strongly biased towards the incumbent council, and far too strongly biased against the popular vote, to the point where it is extremely undemocratic.


Most of this is just elaboration on what Parsifal has said. What I would like to add is that if you aspire to a truly democratic system, you need to understand that you cannot entirely design the potential for undesirable results out of the system. Democratic systems are as dependent on the culture they exist in as much as their functional specifics. If you're going to have a really democratic system, then you need to trust the community to vote and act responsibly, and accept the risk that they might not. I don't think you can foster an invested and responsible voting community if their vote can be so easily ignored without them being held responsible for it.


Just my blathering opinion.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 02:45:41 PM by Lord Wilmore »
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2014, 02:43:48 PM »
The council needs to figure out how to hold an election for Flat Earthers that won't allow an army of trolls or REers to flood the council while at the same time allowing freedom of choice.


I recommend that only Flat Earth Members vote.  Actual members of the society, not just the forum.
How does one become a member of the society you ask? 
You fill out a form, sign it, and mail(or e-mail) it to someone in the council.  It could even be a PDF and remain hidden from the public.  So long as that person signed their name.  Or at least a name they'd admit to if questioned.  It requires no membership fee, it requires effort that some trolls won't bother with, and each name is linked to one member on the forum.
Yes I know, IP spoofing and e-mail spoofing are a problem.  But if you're going to take the trouble to spoof your IP and e-mail address, you probably won't create a dozen accounts.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Thork

Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2014, 04:11:34 PM »
I don't know if my advice is wanted, but I'm going to butt in anyway (and in a way that is not connected to 'other goings on'). I'll butt out if desired, obviously.


I think this is a noble endeavour to embed the members in the society's mission. The main problem with this constitution (and specifically the section on the Zetetic Council) is that it does not stay true to the spirit of that endeavour.


When establishing these kind of initiatives, it is of course necessary to try and engineer the desired outcome into the structure. However, by engineering the desired outcome into the structure, the structure is necessarily given bias, because it is prejudiced against certain outcomes. All such systems have some kind of bias, and that is unavoidable. The question is whether those biases are healthy or unhealthy.


In my view, the structure described above has a very unhealthy bias: in its attempt to prevent undesirable outcomes for the community, it gives the council the power to prevent outcomes that are undesirable for the council. Such a structure is far too strongly biased towards the incumbent council, and far too strongly biased against the popular vote, to the point where it is extremely undemocratic.


Most of this is just elaboration on what Parsifal has said. What I would like to add is that if you aspire to a truly democratic system, you need to understand that you cannot entirely design the potential for undesirable results out of the system. Democratic systems are as dependent on the culture they exist in as much as their functional specifics. If you're going to have a really democratic system, then you need to trust the community to vote and act responsibly, and accept the risk that they might not. I don't think you can foster an invested and responsible voting community if their vote can be so easily ignored without them being held responsible for it.


Just my blathering opinion.
You do have the problem that a person who has been part of the community for years, ends up with the same vote as an angry 12 year old noob and all his friends if you make it truly democratic. We also have no way to stop one person creating 40 alts to mess up an election just because they can. And they would. Because many come to this site to 'troll' because they are 'pro-trolls' and the wittiest and smartest trolls that ever graced the internet despite them being 12 years old and having a similar number of brain cells. You can't put everything to a community vote. The council's main purpose is to reign in the power of the site administration as you can see how that ruins a society when the admins have all the power. That's why we have 2 sites and its what we would like to improve over here.

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Offline Lord Wilmore

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2014, 04:45:00 PM »
Some of those concerns are valid, but the solution lies in adequately defining the terms of 'citizenship', for want of a better word. You can justifiably place some barriers to entry or conditions on what it means to be a member of the community as opposed to just being a member of the forum. However, the community so defined needs to have real responsibility. If the incumbent council can simply veto challengers, then the community isn't being given full responsibility, because their 'bad' decisions can simply be ignored.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Offline Tau

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2014, 04:49:52 PM »
I'm not sure what you're talking about. It's stated pretty plainly in the document that the council has nothing to do with the website.

Except for this bit:

Administrators may be removed [...] by a four fifths vote of the Zetetic Council. Replacements will be voted on by all official members.

If you're going to legislate yourself into a position of influence over the forum, this constitution must be voted on by the entire community, not just the Zetetic Council. Otherwise, we will not recognise it, and any attempt to vote out an administrator will simply be ignored.


Very well. I'm happy to remove that bit if you want.

Quote
I also find this concerning:

Nominees may be selected by any member, although the Council holds the right to veto nominations for any reason. The council also has the right to revoke voting privileges from a member.

This allows a hypothetical corrupt Council to rig elections lawfully and openly. Nobody outside the Council could do anything about it, because:

We spent a long time debating this. This was the best solution we could come up with. Do keep in mind that in the hypothetical situation of a corrupt council, impeachment of council members may be done by the community as a whole.

Quote
After ratification, this constitution may only be altered by the process of amendment. A Zetetic Council member must put forward the change to the council. Following this, the change must be agreed upon by a four fifths majority.

If this is going to work, the Zetetic Council needs to answer to the community, not the other way around.

The council does answer to the community. The community puts the council into office and can remove the council from office.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

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Offline Tau

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2014, 04:57:05 PM »
Some of those concerns are valid, but the solution lies in adequately defining the terms of 'citizenship', for want of a better word. You can justifiably place some barriers to entry or conditions on what it means to be a member of the community as opposed to just being a member of the forum. However, the community so defined needs to have real responsibility. If the incumbent council can simply veto challengers, then the community isn't being given full responsibility, because their 'bad' decisions can simply be ignored.

While I agree that there's a potential for abuse here, do understand that vetoing challengers isn't something that's supposed to happen lightly. If the council doesn't have good reason for it, that would be the best grounds for impeachment that I can think of. It's purely in place to stop an overwhelming majority of angry noobs from making a council of themselves.

We considered other ways of doing that, but most other solutions ran the risk of creating a system like Flat Earth Believers where an elite minority felt no need to involve themselves with the rest of the forum.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Offline xasop

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2014, 06:04:26 PM »
The council does answer to the community. The community puts the council into office and can remove the council from office.

Except that you also have this:

The Zetetic Council may not be allowed to, at any time, have fewer than three members.

What happens if the community tries to impeach three or more Council members at once? The constitution draft does not specify. Either the Council will end up with two members, violating this clause, or the community's impeachment of the third member will be void, preventing the community from impeaching a corrupt Council.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Tau

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2014, 06:11:34 PM »
The council does answer to the community. The community puts the council into office and can remove the council from office.

Except that you also have this:

The Zetetic Council may not be allowed to, at any time, have fewer than three members.

What happens if the community tries to impeach three or more Council members at once? The constitution draft does not specify. Either the Council will end up with two members, violating this clause, or the community's impeachment of the third member will be void, preventing the community from impeaching a corrupt Council.

Well, you impeach two members at a time, allow them to be replaced, impeach the next two members, allow them to be replaced, then impeach the last member.

I don't want to allow there to be a two person council, because that would be completely pointless. If the community agrees with you I can add in a clause for replacement of the entire council at once via an interim election the council has no control over.

I should add in that an impeached member cannot run again. Otherwise impeachment of a corrupt council would be tiresome, to say the least.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Offline xasop

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2014, 06:18:02 PM »
Well, you impeach two members at a time, allow them to be replaced, impeach the next two members, allow them to be replaced, then impeach the last member.

That seems cumbersome, and the remaining members can simply veto nominations of any replacement candidates they don't like. If there are no suitable replacements, there's nothing in the constitution preventing them from vetoing all nominations, keeping the council at 3 members indefinitely.

I don't want to allow there to be a two person council, because that would be completely pointless. If the community agrees with you I can add in a clause for replacement of the entire council at once via an interim election the council has no control over.

That would be an improvement, in my opinion. I'll shut up now and let the community voice their opinions.

I should add in that an impeached member cannot run again. Otherwise impeachment of a corrupt council would be tiresome, to say the least.

Perhaps a time limit on such a clause would be appropriate. If a member is impeached and wants to run again five years later, they should be allowed a second chance to prove themselves.
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

Offline emily

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2014, 06:34:23 PM »
Quote
Section I: Ratification

In order to take effect, this constitution must be ratified by all five (5) members of the Zetetic Council.

Section II: Amendment

After ratification, this constitution may only be altered by the process of amendment. A Zetetic Council member must put forward the change to the council. Following this, the change must be agreed upon by a four fifths majority.

In extension to what Parsifal said, you'd normally define that something as important as a constitution to be passed by the society members, or at least give them the ability to do it. Otherwise you could end up with a situation a few years down the line that in which a crazy ZC decides to give themselves autocratic powers, and there'd be pretty much nothing anyone could do about it (other than succeeding... again)

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Council holds the right to veto nominations for any reason

lol wot

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An 80% majority of official members vote in favor of the act

80% is pretty high, even for a super majority. Especially if this is for all members, which are notoriously difficult to get everyone to vote in...

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Up to two council members may be impeached at one time.

What counts as "at one time"? Per council session? Per day?

Quote
The Zetetic Council may not be allowed to, at any time, have fewer than three members.

It's not entirely clear what happens if this is the case - you've said that interim elections can take place, but you've also said that ZC can decide against that from happening. So if there are less than 3 members do we just not have a ZC? Do the 1 or 2 elected members have power to prevent an election in this case? What if noone runs in the byelection - do we just not have a ZC?

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Moderators will be in charge of managing discussion and enforcing rules.

You haven't defined what these rules are (unless these are defined elsewhere. Soz for my noobiness)

If you have to ask, you don't know

Offline emily

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2014, 06:40:03 PM »
Quote
The council also has the right to revoke voting privileges from a member.

Does it make sense to move this clause into the Membership section, and give it a proper procedure for doing this? It seems a little crazy to let the ZC pick on anyone it wants to for any reason it feels like?
If you have to ask, you don't know

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Offline Tau

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Re: And now, the moment we've all been waiting for...
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2014, 06:59:49 PM »
Quote
Section I: Ratification

In order to take effect, this constitution must be ratified by all five (5) members of the Zetetic Council.

Section II: Amendment

After ratification, this constitution may only be altered by the process of amendment. A Zetetic Council member must put forward the change to the council. Following this, the change must be agreed upon by a four fifths majority.

In extension to what Parsifal said, you'd normally define that something as important as a constitution to be passed by the society members, or at least give them the ability to do it. Otherwise you could end up with a situation a few years down the line that in which a crazy ZC decides to give themselves autocratic powers, and there'd be pretty much nothing anyone could do about it (other than succeeding... again)

I was going to add a clause for public amendment similar to the cause for public impeachment, but forgot to. Thanks for pointing that out.

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Quote
Council holds the right to veto nominations for any reason

lol wot

As discussed before. An active Flat Earth Society is, at any given point, completely overrun with extremely angry globularists. Most of whom are 12 years old. There need to be systems in place to easily handle any attempts by them to derail the society. As said earlier in this thread, abusing that power would be grounds for impeachment.

Quote
Quote
An 80% majority of official members vote in favor of the act

80% is pretty high, even for a super majority. Especially if this is for all members, which are notoriously difficult to get everyone to vote in...

It's not for all members. That would never work on a forum. If 80% is too high I can lower it, but bandwagons around here can surpass that number pretty easily. If it's too low a bunch of dissatisfied idiots (read: Thork) could impeach someone for no particular reason. If the society as a whole wants someone gone, I don't think 80% majority is much of a barrier.

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Up to two council members may be impeached at one time.

What counts as "at one time"? Per council session? Per day?

Per impeachment. As in, starting a thread called "Vote to Impeach Supertails and Tausami" would be okay, but "Vote to Impeach Supertails, Tom Bishop, and Tausami" would not be okay

Quote
Quote
The Zetetic Council may not be allowed to, at any time, have fewer than three members.

It's not entirely clear what happens if this is the case - you've said that interim elections can take place, but you've also said that ZC can decide against that from happening. So if there are less than 3 members do we just not have a ZC? Do the 1 or 2 elected members have power to prevent an election in this case? What if noone runs in the byelection - do we just not have a ZC?

Well, the idea is that there's no way for the to be less than three members. The way it's designed there will always be between 3 and 5 members, which at least allows the council to be operational. If there are three members and one of them wants to resign, they'll have to ask for an election to replace somebody first.

Quote
Quote
Moderators will be in charge of managing discussion and enforcing rules.

You haven't defined what these rules are (unless these are defined elsewhere. Soz for my noobiness)

The rules are defined by the admins here.

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Thanks for contributing. Don't worry about your noobishness- we all start somewhere  :)
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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