Does history support the Flat Earth Theory?
« on: January 04, 2024, 07:51:29 PM »
I understand that it is a claim among flat earthers that the true shape of the Earth is concealed by all governments. I have a problem with this and would like you to explain it.

In 1933 came to power a new Chancellor of Germany (I don't really know if I will be deleted for saying his name, but I think you know who I am referring to - also, this is a question for you, not a support of this figure or something). He believed that the world was run in the shadows by very rich and powerful people, and that it was his duty to "free Germany from this". My point is, he was "trying to unveil the truth" and to "combat the lies" of those who were supposed to be ruling the world, yet he never "unveiled the lie" of the Round Earth. If you know what New Swabia is, you shall know that he also sent an expedition to Antartica 20 years before the Antartic Treaty.

If we believe that the Earth is flat, the only way to explain why this man never addressed the shape of the earth (not even in his private correspondence, nor even when death was coming) would be to believe that he was, somehow, an agent of the world conspiracy himself. How are we to believe that the most powerful anti-globalist and conspiracy theorist in history was actually part of the conspiracy himself, an ally of the US, an ally of the URSS, an ally of all of those who seeked his death?

The other more reasonable option, of course, is that Earth isn't flat after all.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Does history support the Flat Earth Theory?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2024, 11:09:02 PM »
I understand that it is a claim among flat earthers that the true shape of the Earth is concealed by all governments.
You're off to a very contentious start - it's not a claim you can easily attribute to all, or even most, FE'ers. It's also certainly not a common position within the Flat Earth Society.

I don't really know if I will be deleted for saying his name, but I think you know who I am referring to
There is no problem with mentioning Hitler's name here in and of itself. Obviously that might change with context.

If we believe that the Earth is flat, the only way to explain why this man never addressed the shape of the earth (not even in his private correspondence, nor even when death was coming) would be to believe that he was, somehow, an agent of the world conspiracy himself.
That's an extreme leap of logic, and one you don't really explain. Why do you believe this is the only possible option? It would be just as well explained by his lack of knowledge or interest in the subject, being a victim of deception himself, or the absence of appropriate historical records.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Does history support the Flat Earth Theory?
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2024, 02:41:53 AM »
I think this topic is interesting. When Hitler and the Nazis came to power they began exploring a lot of odd alternative science and occult stuff. They didn't put too much faith in standard western science. Many people say this means that they therefore believed in those things they were studying, possibly as an effort to characterize them as insane, but I think it's more likely that they were just exploring the concepts with their science freedom and had a distrust of westen institutions to properly research it.

At this point it all exists as hard to verify claims in various books, but in their efforts it is said that the Nazis did question the Round Earth Theory. In that alt-science effort it is said that they generally stuck their feather in Koreshanity: the idea that the earth was concave and we were living on the inside surface of a hollow earth. In their literature Koreshans published the same type of experiments as Rowbotham that we could see too far (and even repeatedly reference Earth Not a Globe), and also parroted various shared anti-globe evidence for stationary earth that previous Flat Earthers were using.

In regards to Nazi belief in Flat Earth Theory, I think the answer is probably that the Nazis and Hitler never came to a firm conclusion on the shape of the earth but were keeping an open mind on it. This video touches on their exploration of alt-earth theories:

« Last Edit: January 05, 2024, 07:05:32 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Does history support the Flat Earth Theory?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2024, 07:25:44 PM »
The only quote I could find from Hitler on the shape of the earth comes from what appears to be an excerpt from a version of the Nazi-research history book "The Morning of the Magicians" by Louis Pauwels and Jacques Bergier, which describes that the Nazis encouraged their factions to promote different contradicting theories on various subjects in spirited competition. In the case of the earth, some promoted a version of the Round Earth theory and others promoted the inverse Hollow Earth where we are living on the inside.

See The Shape of the Cosm section -

https://web.archive.org/web/20101219081839/http://www.justintimeadventures.com/pipermail/torg/1998-March/012724.html

"When a delegation of Hörbiger supporters tried to enlist his aid in suppressing the [inverse] Hollow Earth theory, Hitler responded, 'Our conception of the world need not be coherent. They may both be right'."

There are other suggestions on that page that inverse Hollow Earth could exist in higher dimensional space, so maybe this is what Hitler was alluding to with that incoherent earth theory. In any case, this text which describes Nazi factions promoting contradicting theories and Hitler being seemingly wishy-washy on the earth's shape seems to support the notion that Hitler and the Nazis in general didn't necessarily firmly believe in a specific earth shape or really the alt-science and occult things they were studying, but were interested in keeping an open mind and exploring the ideas for the purpose of truth.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2024, 07:01:11 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Does history support the Flat Earth Theory?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2024, 09:50:43 PM »
That's an extreme leap of logic, and one you don't really explain. Why do you believe this is the only possible option?
German geologists didn't notice that the antartic wasn't as they thought? You people really think scientists are dumbasses, don't you? Because I don't see how there is really another option besides all governments hidding the true shape or all scientists in history being really stupid to not notice the true shape of the planet.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Does history support the Flat Earth Theory?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2024, 10:50:05 AM »
German geologists didn't notice that the antartic wasn't as they thought?
Why would it "not be as they thought"? And since when was Hitler a German geologist? I thought he was more of an aspiring artist/dictator.

You people really think scientists are dumbasses, don't you?
Not at all.

Because I don't see how there is really another option besides all governments hidding the true shape or all scientists in history being really stupid to not notice the true shape of the planet.
That sounds like a "you" problem. We can take no responsibility for what you do and don't "see". That said, familiarising yourself with what we actually propose might be a helpful first step here, rather than just assuming that your imagination is correct.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Does history support the Flat Earth Theory?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2024, 07:31:33 PM »
I was reading up on other books about the Nazi hollow earth and the chapter Hitler and the 'Phantom Universe' in the book The Hollow Earth Enigma was an entertaining read and gives some more details.

In this version of the events the Nazi military was interested in funding inverted Hollow Earth research for a military advantage. Some of the earlier American inverse Hollow Earth researchers were claiming infrared experiments that could see much further than possible and hypothesized that infrared rays were less curved than normal light rays. We know from the latest FE developments that people like JTolan claim to see hundreds of miles further than should be possible with infrared from airplanes, and it sounds like similar experiments were conducted by Hollow Earthers in the early 1900's at the advent of infrared photography. The Nazis postulated that if they could use infrared technology to see an eighth of the earth it would provide a great tactical advantage.

Unfortunately it seems that they were assuming that we were living on the inside of a Hollow Earth and were pointing the telescopic IR cameras up too high at the sky, and also made the mistake of conducting the experiment at sea level near water, which we know isn't ideal for infrared long distance observations since too much atmosphere still interferes.

This version of the events seems to imply that the inverted Hollow Earth theory was popular among the top Nazis but Hitler didn't know about Hollow Earth until shortly before approving the experiments, which I somewhat doubt. It also doesn't mention the quote attributed to Hitler defending hollow earth previously mentioned. A lot of the other details are the same, however.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 03:38:24 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Does history support the Flat Earth Theory?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2024, 09:02:22 PM »
(not even in his private correspondence, nor even when death was coming)

Even if he were part of a global(!!  ;D  ) conspiracy, I'm not sure why the shape of the earth would have been found in his private correspondence, and especially not towards the end of his life. He was pretty singularly focused on other matters in both respects.

But you do bring up an important - if broader - point.

And you don't have to go that far back into history for it. I would have asked, why didn't the Soviets, when their space program was in clear decline and their army revealing itself to be in shambles in the late 80's, have gained an easy PR victory against the democracies of the West?  True, this would have been a fleeting victory, but that's hindsight. All the way up until 1989 most in the Kremlin did not realize what would happen a mere two years later!

Furthermore, look at great power politics today. Here's a few examples that could imply one nation, if they were party to a grand conspiracy, would have a motive to reveal "the truth" to the world:

China has a keen interest in showing the world that it is a true peer to the US, to the point of making itself out to be a superpower (which it is not, by accepted historical standards). But it is a geopolitical rival to the US on the world stage, playing the part of disruptor to the unipolar status quo and hierarchy. Like most autocracies before it, it often chooses to point out perceived moral flaws in its rivals to distract from its own repressiveness (both to domestic and world audiences), or to gain PR points in the game of great power politics. And it often seeks to show off its military and technological prowess. One way it could kill multiple birds with one stone would be to reveal that the earth is flat, and to demonstrate this fact to the world. In short, China would be saying that the US, by lying to the world about such a fundamental fact, can't be trusted as de facto world order hegemon. By contrast, China will play it straight with you. Be our ally.

Dozens of Arabic nations, as well as Muslim Iran and statelets like Hamas' Gaza and the PLA routinely attempt to show up Israel diplomatically or geopolitically. Israel is by far the most technologically advanced nation in the Mideast (and so if any of them know the true shape of the earth, they should), and they are presented as irredeemable liars and conspirators by a great many voices and groups in the Muslim world. It would be keeping exactly in line with many routine practices for, say, Iran, to tell the world Israel was the originator and gatekeeper of a massive conspiracy to hide the shape of the earth. And then Iran could demonstrate that the world is flat in order to embarrass Israel and show the world they cannot be trusted. If they lied about the very shape of the world, how can we believe anything the Jews say?

An important point regarding this second example: if the base reason for the conspiracy has to do with dominance in space, Iran is very new to having any sort of space program, and has little to lose in this arena (e.g., if their space program is indeed a farce like NASA, Iran has no levers of geopolitical power founded on its own space program, so it loses nothing by revealing the earth is flat).

Repeat this concept with Russia, using the truth as a weapon against the EU or US.

Hilariously, you could also repeat this concept with Ukraine, using the truth as a weapon against Russia, even, to further garner the support of the civilian populations of the EU and US!

Repeat it with N. Korea against S. Korea/Japan/US. (I admit this one is more dubious given N. Korea's general silence on the world stage).

Heck, you could even repeat it with Armenia and Azerbaijan. Although less well known and much smaller countries than the examples above, in late 2020 Azerbaijan kicked Armenia's ass in the Second Nagorno-Karabakh War with impressive technical sophistication. It could be called the "first robotic war", as it was the first to be won primarily by robotic systems. Azerbaijan could immediately make itself and its ongoing conflict with its rival much more famous by demonstrating to world audiences that the world is flat. Of course, this example does lack any realistic argument that Armenia has been some sort of key conspiracist for the shape of the world which seems dubious (unlike the US, Israel, Japan, or the EU, as in the other examples). On the other hand, Azerbaijan's purpose could be to enlist popular support from major rich nations like those in the EU and the US. I guess this one is a bit far fetched. Still...

All this implies to me that there is no such grand conspiracy.

But these are also very complicated situations, and I can believe that others could honestly think all the above parties have reasons to keep silent even so.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 11:40:05 PM by existoid »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Does history support the Flat Earth Theory?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2024, 12:57:27 AM »
One thing that baffles me about existoid's position is that, in its view, it is a necessity that people in the 1930s knew about things we do not know about in the 2020s. To the being which cannot cease to be, it is simply inconceivable that people 90 years ago did not have the knowledge that we still lack to this day.

Where does this inexplicable confidence in the enlightenment of the Nazis come from? Does The Being consider Nazis to be of superior intellect, to the extent where they'd be a century more advanced than we are? It truly boggles the mind.

Once we accept that the Nazis were not inherently superior to the modern man (a thought that I can't imagine being controversial today, but hey-ho, here we are), the entire mystery goes away - they simply did not know the things that we still don't know. It doesn't merit multiple paragraphs of deliberation, because it's a pretty basic concept. And if the persistently-existing being insists that the Nazis were inherently superior... well, it doesn't feel so bad to disagree with it. Back where I'm from, Nazis get punched.

You can substitute the same logic for its inexplicable belief in the Soviets, Iranians, Hamas, the North Korean regime, and the bloodthirsty "Z" orcs (since it apparently does not consider them the same as the Soviets). The existoid appears to be a being that simply cannot cease to put its faith in the inexcusable and reprehensible. A common failing of those who wish to oppose uncomfortable thoughts no matter the cost. :(
« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 01:37:23 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Does history support the Flat Earth Theory?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2024, 07:09:07 AM »
Based on how Hitler is described in the OP I suspect the poster has been watching some of those alt-Hitler documentaries which allege Hitler and the Nazis were really christian nationalist good guys who broke free of the Jewish Banking Cabal. The Jewish empire allegedly struck back and started World War II to contain them, and proceeded to demonize them with lies. Ever since then, according to this theory, the Jews basically controlled the world with near total control. Occasionally a country would try to break free of the Rothschild system and would be put in its place, such as with the fate of Lybian leader Muammar Gaddafi who denounced the bankers and spoke against a Zionist Agenda.

It's an interesting theory, and probably a little more realistic than the other grand conspiracy that the YouTube FE'ers like where the world is controlled by Satan, and RE and NASA are a Satanic Conspiracy. At least it doesn't invoke the paranormal directly.

However, pinning down the exact details of a possible conspiracy is ultimately inconsequential to a determination of whether there is a possible conspiracy. In many ways philosophy asks us to assume the possibility that we are controlled by a conspiracy, such as the theory that we are a computer simulation, that we live under the rule of a god or gods of some kind, that reality exists as the dream of a butterfly, and so on. Even the idea that "life has a purpose for you", which is an incredibly common belief, invokes a conspiracy influencung your life. If philosophy is at the point where we have to consider that we are in a computer simulation designed by unknown programmers, then trying to rule out a conspiracy based on the logic of what a country would or would not do is a futile effort.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2024, 02:28:38 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Does history support the Flat Earth Theory?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2024, 01:20:38 PM »
I would think that for there not to be a "conspiracy" (an active effort on the part of governments to keep a secret) there would have to be divine power (or infernal power) dedicated to fooling people who are trying to do various kinds of science:
* Pilots and international travel shows we can get to the various continents reliably with known times and distances. I don't see how it's feasible that either (a) we don't know the true map or (b) the true map is somehow concealed.
* Engineers for certain projects (large naval vessel tow-tanks, LIGO, etc.) take earth-curve (and water curve) into account. It seems like either the tow-tank would be built incorrectly, leading to incorrect ship design or the engineers would be doing a lot of work to hide the truth (the tow-tank rails are 'straight' but the documents say they follow earth-curve.
* Early scientists (Foucault?) would either need to be in-on-things, unaware of how science works (refraction, coriolis effect, etc.) or there is some force faking these things.

The reason I am given to understand why the Nazi party explored alternate science was that they believed non-Aryan science was corrupt and put extra emphasis on science from Germans--even if somewhat wonky. This, IIRC caused them to discount Einstein's theories, for example (Jewish science must be wrong!)

Re: Does history support the Flat Earth Theory?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2024, 07:39:38 PM »
One thing that baffles me about existoid's position is that, in its view, it is a necessity that people in the 1930s knew about things we do not know about in the 2020s. To the being which cannot cease to be, it is simply inconceivable that people 90 years ago did not have the knowledge that we still lack to this day.

Where does this inexplicable confidence in the enlightenment of the Nazis come from? Does The Being consider Nazis to be of superior intellect, to the extent where they'd be a century more advanced than we are? It truly boggles the mind.


I'm not stating any special confidence in some "enlightenment" of Nazis.

Second, arguing about the possible technical knowledge base of any government or political party - Nazi or otherwise - is hardly an endorsement of their politics or ideals. Shame on you (but with kind indulgence) for implying I endorse anything about fascists - whom my grandfather fought against and my great uncle got shot fighting against in WW2. 

I'm arguing this:

1. As with OP's argument, let's assume there is a global conspiracy by the governments of all major (i.e., technically advanced) nations to hide the true shape of the earth - that it is flat, not round.

2. If this is the case, we can then reasonably ask: why have none of these nations ever revealed to the world this conspiracy as a tactic in the game of great power relations?

I provide several examples of nations that - were they a party to this conspiracy - could have strong motives to betray their fellow conspirators.

One conclusion people can take from this is that there is no grand conspiracy. But that's not the exclusively possible conclusion.








« Last Edit: January 17, 2024, 07:48:27 PM by existoid »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Does history support the Flat Earth Theory?
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2024, 08:43:20 PM »
Second, arguing about the possible technical knowledge base of any government or political party - Nazi or otherwise - is hardly an endorsement of their politics or ideals. Shame on you (but with kind indulgence) for implying I endorse anything about fascists
You will, of course, notice that I didn't say anything about your endorsement of their ideals or politics. That's just something you made up. Shame on you, with no indulgence.

I'm arguing this:

1. As with OP's argument, let's assume there is a global conspiracy by the governments of all major (i.e., technically advanced) nations to hide the true shape of the earth - that it is flat, not round.
I see. In the future, reading the thread prior to contributing will help you not come across in ways that seemingly offend you. Your core assumption was rejected in the very first response to the OP. The rest of your post will be read in context of the discussion you chose to partake it, so if you ignore (or, in your case, fail to even read) parts of it, you put yourself at risk of being severely misunderstood.

The prevailing pattern here is that you seem more keen on responding to things you've imagined than your conversation partners' arguments. Might I suggest a personal blog for this sort of monologue? It doesn't belong here.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2024, 09:04:12 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Does history support the Flat Earth Theory?
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2024, 12:57:36 AM »
2. If this is the case, we can then reasonably ask: why have none of these nations ever revealed to the world this conspiracy as a tactic in the game of great power relations?

Why are you claiming that no nation thought there was a conspiracy when this thread just explained that Hitler and the Nazis did, who said that it was Jewish science. Hitler was one of the few leaders who have tried to expose an alternative version of the world.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2024, 03:36:02 AM by Tom Bishop »