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Messages - jack44556677

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1
Unless it was text/im only, I also wouldn't feel comfortable - though I hope there are some here that would!

In any case, what is "alternative science" (with some examples)? There are ways other than scientific to make discoveries and advance human knowledge and ability - but "alternative science" seems to imply there is some sort of "other" science one might choose if one were so inclined.

In my view, science does have alternatives - however those alternatives are not science.

2
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Why do objects fall at dofferent speeds?
« on: July 12, 2021, 03:57:28 PM »
If the earth would accelerate up,
 why do heavy objects fall faster than light objects?

As Duncan explained, UA is a straight convention/sign flip. Nothing else changes.

Wether gravity is negatively applied to every object or positively applied to the ground - the mathematics are effectively analogous.

The reason that different objects fall at different rates, is chiefly because of drag and archemides principle.  This doesn't change when gravity is conceptualized to push up from below.

3
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Translations of the Bible
« on: July 01, 2021, 09:18:28 PM »
My limited research on the subject shows that the kjv is by far the most accurate, but decidedly not the most accessible to a modern audience. The nrsv (newly reviled substandard version, as it is known) is changed arbitrarily to sell new copies of it for profit :(

I highly recommend the pocket e-sword, and it is a shame it did not make the jump to modern mobile os's (it SORT of did, but in a vastly inferior form and for-profit, itself a violation of the scriptures and the ethos of the creator).  No one translation can do the job, and it is often necessary to go to the "original" language/source as best you can (along with commentaries / translation / strongs concordance etc.). Blueletterbible.org is the next best thing, but it is utter shit by comparison to the ease of use and interface of the pocket e-sword.

In any case, thanks for sharing! I haven't been involved in theosophy for quite some time, but this brings back some memories.

4
Flat Earth Community / Re: Research flat earth community
« on: June 17, 2021, 06:22:05 PM »
Hey izy et al,

As i responded in my pm, I think it is the best approach to simply share your questions here and let all who wish to answer them do so at their own leisure! 

You should realize that many participants in this “community” have varying views on the shape of the world (many believe it is spherical, for instance. I personally do not believe it is spherical and have no certain knowledge as to the shape of the entire thing), so you may want to add that to the list of questions.

5
I highly recommend perusing the wiki here!  Just keep in mind it is a wiki, and not a bible.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Sunrise_and_Sunset

In my view the distance the light from the sun can travel (all light in general) is finite.  The two main reasons for this are light’s natural attenuation (because it is a pressure wave) and the typical density gradient in our air which causes light to curve convexly towards the ground.

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Flat Earth Community / Re: Research flat earth community
« on: June 04, 2021, 11:57:30 PM »
I'm happy, typically, to answer any questions you might have.

Just post your questions here, and others will likely answer them as well.


7
How about yourself? How did you come across this research topic?

Personally, I discovered this website (and society) in an ancient age before the scourge of social media.

8
if the sun is much smaller than believed by modern science, then how can it produce enough energy for the earth, and is there another energy source that I’ve missed?

The simplest answer is that it is unknown.  Once the fusion mythology, which is no more sound (indeed, profoundly stupid) than the "theory" of the giant ignited street lamp in the sky that preceded it, is done away with - there is no obvious potential explanation for the source of the power.  In any case, the output of the sun doesn't vary just because our mythology does. 

The very concept that the sun is the source of all power is most likely flawed, and a manifestation of basic primative sun/helios worship.

9
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Research for school
« on: May 27, 2021, 09:32:38 PM »
The wiki here is a great place to start!  Here is a page on “the conspiracy”, however chances are it isn’t anything like you’d expect.  Humanity requires no conspiracy to be consistently stupid and wrong as it historically always is; we require no help!

https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Conspiracy

Don’t just read that one page though, the entire wiki is well worth going through! Just keep in mind that it is a compilation of many different perspectives and ideas, not a bible or textbook.

10
This applies to fish as well.

youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4Nm1TMalI&t=149s

We do know that we can make birds act wacky under magnetic and electric fields - which leads some to speculate that one or more of those factors are involved in their “internal gps”.  Like most everything else in science, this has no relevance to the shape of the entire world.

11
Thanks Jack for your thoughts.  The experiments that I saw did not incorporate anything like in styrofoam box however it was done under the shade of a tree where the branches appeared to be quite high off the ground (approx. 20 feet above the object) so it wasn't likely that the tree influenced the experiment.  I’m a flat earther so I’m inclined to believe that we don’t understand exactly what the moon is (i.e. does it somehow emit its own light vs. just act as reflecting other light from the sun). Thanks again for your thoughts.

I tend to agree that a distant tree is not going to have much impact on the rate of cooling of an object, and the largest factor is air interaction.  I’ve seen other examples involving barns and other large structures and it has been argued that, rather than an “insulation at a distance” effect, it was really the blocking/impeding of wind that accounted for the observation.

My general point is that we can speculate (jibber jabber) til we are blue in the face and learn nothing.  We have to do the measurements and try to isolate the causes/factors involved.  When newton did his work on sunlight, he did so inside a darkened room with a small aperture that would let the light in through.  I imagine a similar setup involving moonlight (ideally while keeping the cold air outside) would be a good way to proceed.

I have similar doubts as to the true nature of the moon, including its eerie glow.  It does not reflect light the way a spherical reflector does/should, and may well be an ionization effect or some sort of reflection.

12
Cooling by light or sound is not as unusual as it intuitively seems.

It is unclear, in the measurements I’ve seen - mostly taken outside, whether moonlight has the effect that is claimed / ostensibly observed.

The “insulation effect” iceman described is certainly possible, and to get to the bottom of it would require controlling for that.

If you could conduct the observations all inside / in a styrofoam cooler and selectively let moonlight in and block it (of course doing proper “controls” of opening and closing said aperture and monitoring the effect on the temperature with and without moonlight when the outside temperature was the same) then you could start to figure it out.

Did any of the procedures you saw do that, to certainly demonstrate that the moonlight was the cause of the cooling (and not just the effect of the lack of thermal “blanket” of the shade)?  The ones I have seen do not control for what iceman is saying, and they really should!

13
Flat Earth Community / Re: i dont understand someone help please
« on: May 07, 2021, 02:03:06 PM »
So, once again, you have nothing to back up your typical pontification.  At least you're consistent.

You misunderstand.  I do not come here to feed others, but to encourage fishing instead!

I could source and cite all day long, and that would perhaps convince more - but it is across purposes to my ends.  I don’t want to convince; I want to encourage independent thought and research!

Perhaps if you did a little research on the gyroscope you might find some support (or perhaps refutation) for my “pontification”? Autodidacticism is not optional in this subject (nor any other).

14
Flat Earth Community / Re: i dont understand someone help please
« on: May 07, 2021, 01:47:19 PM »
I would say this is an example of trolling.  When you answer a statement, backed up by all the known laws of physics, with an answer pulled out of your imagination to incite the opposing debater to answer with malice and attempt to divert the discussion away from a point that you have no suitable answer for.  Nice try, but no joy here. 

I avoid inciting malice whenever possible. I am not intending to divert or cause offense and sincerely apologize if that has been your experience.  My experience has been that the reflexive anger that often manifests when one is talking/potentially learning about things they strongly disagree with is a defense mechanism designed to curtail evaluation. I am a heretic, and I attack belief which often has this effect to believers (to keep their beliefs safe, and prevent further discussion, evaluation, and collaboration with said heretic)

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You can learn all this for yourself (if you have sufficient imagination) by looking at some of the gyroscope technical manuals.


Imagination does not lie in any book, perhaps technical manuals and marketing material least of all, nor is it required to fill your head with the imaginings of others.

 
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All of my statements have been from personal experience and real world observations while on the job.

I appreciate that, and sincerely wish to cause you no offense.  I wish to disagree with your interpretation of those observations, not belittle your experience (nor any other aspect of your personage).

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I would challenge you to get a gyroscope of your own and do some experiments with it.  Show us just why a gyroscope cannot indicate that the earth is actually rotating

I like gyroscopes a lot, and have several.  In particular, I found eric laithwaite’s exploration and the development of the “exhaustless inertial drive” fascinating.  I encourage others to remain as curious and uncertain as they did, and to learn more about the things that captivate them.

 
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If you just make some inciteful proclamations and expect someone to believe it, then you will be sadly disappointed.

I expect nor wish anyone to believe anything (that I or anyone else ever says).  I eschew belief, because it has no place in knowledge (least of all scientific).  All claims/“facts” must be thoroughly validated/verified before accepting them as knowledge and I do not seek to remove this crucial and neglected burden from any student (quite the opposite!)

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My imagination tells me that the Easter Bunny is a complete myth.  ... You can BELEIVE in the Easter Bunny but KNOW there is a Santa.

Imagination is not the prerequisite for knowledge, but the prerequisite for possibilities! All imaginings (claims, “facts”, reasonings etc.), all possibilities need to be thoroughly validated/tested before they can be thought confirmed. When applicable, the scientific method is the best we have to perform such validation (and even then, the knowledge is provisional and doomed to eventual expiration)

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Flat Earth Community / Re: i dont understand someone help please
« on: May 07, 2021, 01:10:17 PM »
Wow. Are you going to back that up with any credible source to substantiate that completely made up claim?

Not all claims (or in this case, historical facts) are “made up” just because you are unfamiliar with them.

It’s in the word itself! Gyro-scope!  I encourage you to do some research on the gyroscope, its origin as well as the etymology of the word.

16
Flat Earth Community / Re: i dont understand someone help please
« on: May 06, 2021, 05:29:34 PM »
The earth rotates, as measured by gyros, as does the atmosphere above it.

This is what we are taught, yes.  In reality that isn’t reasonable, nor consistent with what we observe.  The gyroscope shows deflection, not the shape or motion of the world.  The gyroscope was invented to do precisely that, convince people the world was rotating - and it worked to convince a great many.

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If it were not, how could a big puffy cloud stay mostly stationary relative to an observer on the ground?

Because it is mostly stationary relative to an observer, not “coincidentally” traveling at the same speed of the ground (which is silly).  Wind happens all the time, varying at altitudes and is not related to the presumed rotation of the world.

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Wouldn't a gyroscope floating up thru that same cloud on a balloon register the same rotation rate as the one on the earth below?

Of course not.  That’s like assuming that something that is forced to rotate while on the merry-go-round will continue to do so once they step off of it - into a hot air balloon if you wish. (The hot air balloon can also be riding the merry go round if you so desire)

17
Flat Earth Community / Re: i dont understand someone help please
« on: May 06, 2021, 05:18:56 PM »
What do you mean by 'connected'? Are you suggesting that a ship at sea, or an aircraft in the air, is not affected by the rotation of the earth?

I am suggesting that, yes.  More so in the case of the airplane, due to the viscosity of the medium.  The supposed rotation of the world would be expected to alter greatly when you were touching it vs when you were no longer touching it and only potentially feeling its influence through an intermediary non-solid media.

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How would systemic friction be related to a function of the user's latitude?

What if the drift nut is there to accommodate constant friction, AND there were something else causing varying deflection on top of that? Of course there are many other possibilities. I encourage you to use your imagination, and to avoid the cul de sac of “what I know, and/or was taught, must be right / is the only possibility”.

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Again, you seem to think that being in the sky (or sea?) somehow disconnects the system from the planet's rotation. That simply isn't the case. The earth, the sea, the atmosphere - the whole thing is rotating.

In your belief, yes.  In reality, likely not.  Even if they did all rotate, they would not (and do not) rotate as one due to the mechanical properties of the medias themselves.  The jet stream travels faster than the presumed rotation of the earth, and in the wrong direction.  It is very silly to think that everything would rotate as one, but it is one of those fantastically silly things we learn by rote under the guise of education.  It is in part to handle/rationalize the paradox that helicopters, balloons, and drones pose to the rotating globe model.
 
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That's a cop out - let's hear your actual explanation, and not some hint, shrouded in mystery.

I’m not intending to provide mystery. I’m providing criticism and encouragement to use ones imagination.  While providing criticism I am under no obligation (nor is anyone) to provide an alternative to what is being rightly criticized.  However, in the process of calibration I am suggesting that the systemic frictions of the mechanical system (when the gyro is mechanical and has a drift nut) as well as another influencer on the gyro are intended to be factored out as well as possible to maintain fixed bearing.

It is not the data that is in question, it is the interpretation of that data contingent on unvalidated assumption.

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Flat Earth Community / Re: i dont understand someone help please
« on: May 06, 2021, 09:40:55 AM »
But Jack, we've been here before. We've talked about gyros, for example - we had a deep conversation about drift nuts in directional gyros, which correct for the drift error caused by the earth's rotation - 15 degrees per hour multiplied by the sine of the latitude. I showed you some links too - you can see for yourself. There's also plenty more information about the various other types of gyro error.

We did discuss drift nuts and gyro function, which I am all too happy to do.  These things make ronj’s “theoretical” data more problematic, not less.  The deflection witnessed (and relied upon) in gyros and pendulums is not a significant part of the current discussion - and the absurdity required to expect a drift nut to function (or be consistent) while NOT connected to the supposed rotating earth is pretty apparent.

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What possible physical layout of our planet could possibly account for such an error, other than a rotating globe?

You misunderstand, the physical layout of the planet (should such a thing there be) is not what causes such errors.  Nor is measuring a gyro’s deflection a way to measure the shape of the world.  It is merely believed to be, based on scores of other unvalidated assumptions. 

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If this stuff wasn't real

No one in this conversation is saying it isn’t.  It is the belief over why that is in contention.

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15 degrees per hour multiplied by the sine of the latitude is not a random error - there has to be a physical explanation for it.

I agree.  However you are incorrect that (ignoring other impacts to the gyro) friction could not manifest in such a way.  Noise is random, systemic friction is not.  Your certainty stems from lack of imagination as to alternatives.

 
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It would make no sense at all on a flat earth - what is special about the equator that would cause the error to be zero, for example?

Musing on that question can be helpful.  The deflection (and rate thereof) suggests that something is rotating, though that thing need not be the earth.  If the deflection occurs when disconnected from the earth (such as in flight, for instance), that is strong evidence that the earth (and its supposed rotation) is not, in fact, the cause.

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Doesn't this stuff give you cause to think 'maybe it is a globe after all?'.

Once upon a time, before I had conducted adequate research to verify/validate such claims (and the larger tapestry of which they are a part, and dependent upon for potential inference on the shape of the world) - yes.  You are getting hung up by believing that your learned interpretation of the data (which does not itself alter) is the only possible one.  This is due chiefly to lack of imagination.

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Flat Earth Community / Re: i dont understand someone help please
« on: May 04, 2021, 05:44:27 PM »
This is just another polite way of saying "I don't care how much data you have or what your measuring instruments are, don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up".

Not at all! The main point is that you don’t have that data.  Furthermore, if you did we would still have to discuss the interpretation of it - which is heavily contingent on preexisting bias.

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The next question then would be:  Would you be willing to stake you life on what you think you KNOW?  I KNOW the earth is spherical, I've confirmed it, and on that I'm willing to bet my life on what I KNOW.  Sailors do it often.

My certainty varies with specific fact/knowledge, as with all of us.  The shape of the world is not part of sailing, the skills to sail are.  I know that you ardently believe the world is spherical, and are willing to “bet your life” on that faith - however that is very different and distinct from your sailing knowledge and ability!

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Those who live in their mother's basement don't and frequently troll just for fun.  Do you KNOW that?

Lol, ad hom will not help you understand or be understood (quite the opposite!).

In fairness, I don’t like the trolls either (regardless of where they live or how much income, or sailing experience, they have).  I will not troll you, nor anyone if I can help it.  I can only hope to convey my sincerity adequately through repeated interaction.  I come here for rational discourse above all else.

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Flat Earth Community / Re: i dont understand someone help please
« on: May 04, 2021, 05:29:08 PM »
Yet you reject any conclusion that has been reached by application of the scientific method.

Quite the opposite! However it will take time and your earnest interest to recognize that.

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You judging anybody for being "vain", is just too rich.  ::)

My statement was inclusive, not exclusive. It is OUR vain beliefs that we struggle against when we endeavor to be objective/scientific.  Our intuition/belief/bias most often gets in the way of that.

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