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Offline Tau

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #120 on: August 14, 2014, 06:11:52 PM »
There's no reason to put things on hold. The denizens of the other forum have every opportunity to come over here and chime in as they desire. And, changes to the council's membership shouldn't really have any effect on the constitution. It is what it is, and it's supposed to be able to hold up to many different iteration of the Council.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #121 on: August 14, 2014, 08:09:06 PM »
I'm not suggesting the society do anything with the database at all. Only that it is deemed their property. Not Daniel's. Not PP's. Not Parsifal's. The content was generated by the society, it should belong to the society.

All this Lord Dave bollocks about hosting and maintenance is nonsense. The IP should belong to the society.

OOoohhh is THAT what you mean?  I assumed you meant something less useless.

Well, why don't you go get a lawyer to do the legal work of making this the Official Flat Earth Society and copyrighting the forum and it's posts?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline markjo

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #122 on: August 14, 2014, 08:11:05 PM »
I'm not so much concerned with the constitution holding up to different iterations of the council as I am with the constitution holding up to different iterations of the society.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #123 on: August 14, 2014, 10:21:49 PM »
Apologies in advance for a disorganised post.

So something a bit more positive. If the site merges (and we all know I am not keen on that), but if it merges Daniel owns the domain name. Frankly, I think we should own the forum database. We are the ones that put all the content in there in the first place. All those millions of posts were written by the society, and should belong to the society.
Can you clarify what you mean by "own the database"?

If you mean literally own the database, then I don't really agree that this is an option, or that it will ever be. There's a plethora of concerns, security and otherwise, associated with this idea - Lord Dave has done a great job explaining some of the most important ones.

If you mean ownership of the content of posts from a copyright perspective (as later indicated by your "I'm not suggesting the society do anything with the database at all" post), that's not only legally complex (and in some countries outright invalid), but also horribly restrictive. It also brings us no legitimate benefit whatsoever, as far as the mission statement of the FES1 goes.

The only potential use I can see for this is malicious: If someone posted a piece of their own creative content and then profited from a derivative thereof, you'd have a vague case for demanding royalties. We have always been opposed to policing people's posts beyond necessity.

Of course, comments are welcome, and if the majority decide that that's what they want to do, then that's what we will take to Daniel, but as far as I'm concerned, the posts should belong to the posters (as they do by default under most countries' copyright, so this requires no action on anyone's part) and not to an organisation - that is what I see as the community owning its content. Anything else would be taking the control away from the community.

I still don't see any valid reason why Daniel would make a bad Queen of England.
I feel that this isn't representative of the agreement we've come up with in this thread. By what we agreed upon, Daniel wouldn't really be the Queen of England - rather, he would be deputised when absent. See below for my response to markjo.

I'm know that Parsifal and PizzaPlanet have been discussing the technical aspects of the merger with Daniel, but I have seen little discussion of the leadership of the merged society.  Perhaps the ZC should be discussing any potential leadership changes with Daniel and the other FES members before they get too far into the new constitution.
We did discuss it to some extent in this very thread. Here's my understanding of things, please correct me if anyone feels I misunderstood or misrepresented: Parsifal opened this thread by saying: "To summarise, please consider whether you would like to see a reunion where Daniel heads the Society and myself and pizaaplanet head the online community (forum and wiki). If no, but you would be open to a reunion under different broad terms, please say so. [...]" There was some contention regarding Daniel's leadership, of which I think the key turning point was Tom Bishop's proposal and my counter-proposal based on Tom's concerns. In the end, my suggestion was met with overwhelming support, so unless a new popular suggestion arises or any major difficulties come up, we'll be going with that.

I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that with Parsifal and PP on the job, the process should take significantly less than 2 years.  My WAG (wild ass guess) would be closer to 2-3 months.
That sounds like a decent guess, but I wouldn't want to put a timeline on it just yet.


1 - I'm going with Daniel's FES here, since ours doesn't really have a mission statement per se.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 10:30:28 PM by pizaaplanet »
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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #124 on: August 14, 2014, 10:41:10 PM »
In the end, my suggestion was met with overwhelming support
No it wasn't.

so unless a new popular suggestion arises or any major difficulties come up, we'll be going with that.
I really don't want to see reunification but somehow you seem to have made yourself in charge of our destiny and are now telling us what you have decided to do. Don't we even get a vote?

I'm still waiting for someone to give me a reason why we need Daniel.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #125 on: August 14, 2014, 10:43:51 PM »
Is anybody other than Thork opposed to this?
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Offline markjo

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #126 on: August 14, 2014, 11:00:32 PM »
I'm still waiting for someone to give me a reason why we need Daniel.
Check me if I'm wrong, but PP just said that the proposed new power structure would essentially see Daniel giving up control over the merged site, so I don't see what you're worried about.  Or are you still confusing the site with the society?  If so, then think of it this way:  The society is the members while the site is the pub where the members hang out.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2014, 11:02:09 PM by markjo »
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Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #127 on: August 14, 2014, 11:02:28 PM »
I'm still waiting for someone to give me a reason why we need Daniel.
Check me if I'm wrong, but PP just said that the proposed new power structure would essentially see Daniel giving up control over the merged site, so I don't see what you're worried about.  Or are you still confusing the site with the society?
No, he said Daniel was in charge, unless he was away and then we all run around picking up his slack. Again, why do we need Daniel?

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Offline markjo

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #128 on: August 14, 2014, 11:13:25 PM »
No, he quoted Parsifal as saying:
...where Daniel heads the Society and myself and pizaaplanet head the online community (forum and wiki).
Again, the site (online community) and society are not one in the same.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Thork

Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #129 on: August 14, 2014, 11:24:46 PM »
Yes, so its very easy for PizzaPlanet to relinquish all control of the society back to Daniel, huh? I don't think we need him. In fact, I just see him undoing things when he returns thanks to the 'Daniel is in charge when he is around', clause. It seems like a very unsatisfactory state of affairs.

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Offline Snupes

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #130 on: August 15, 2014, 12:10:01 AM »
In the end, my suggestion was met with overwhelming support
No it wasn't.

so unless a new popular suggestion arises or any major difficulties come up, we'll be going with that.
I really don't want to see reunification but somehow you seem to have made yourself in charge of our destiny and are now telling us what you have decided to do. Don't we even get a vote?

Er...who, other than you and like one other person, doesn't support this?


I'm still waiting for someone to give me a reason why we need Daniel.

Because just about nobody else is going out and doing FES stuff in the real world. He's gotten a huge archive of historical flat earth documents and literature, which nobody else has bothered to do. While I don't deny at all that this site could succeed without him, we haven't exactly done much to push the Society itself forward.
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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #131 on: August 15, 2014, 12:22:51 AM »
In the end, my suggestion was met with overwhelming support
No it wasn't.

It looks like DuckDodgers, Tom, Tausami, Junker, Gayer, markjo, spoon, Foxbox, The Terror, Dave, Tintagel, jroa, beardo, Particle Person, Vindictus, gotham, Snupes, Blanko, and I are all in support of the reunion.  Hell, even sandokhan approves.  The only people who actively oppose it are apparently you and maybe squevil.  So yes, this does have overwhelming support.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #132 on: August 15, 2014, 12:38:15 AM »
In the end, my suggestion was met with overwhelming support
No it wasn't.
I'm sorry, Thork, but it's you versus world, and quite literally so. We have to act in the interest of the community, and not your vision of it.

I really don't want to see reunification but somehow you seem to have made yourself in charge of our destiny and are now telling us what you have decided to do. Don't we even get a vote?
You do, as stated here:

If large factions of this site end up not happy with the terms and conditions, we simply won't go back.
That is our position as well. We will not implement a solution that is not popular with a vast majority of the userbase. The way I see it, this general idea has gathered a lot of support and not that much dissent, so it could potentially work out. Once we have a more concrete policy sketched, we'll open it for comments, and if we reach a point where it doesn't seem like much more needs changing, we'll put it to a vote. That should hopefully address most concerns and stop any such large factions from forming.

And here:

So in the interest of transparency, are we going to get to see the PM? It effects everyone, right? Its not like you'd secretly negotiate without informing everyone what you are saying, would you?
[...]
After that's done, and we've hammered out the general terms of reunification based on the consultation we've had before, we will open it for comments, amend as necessary, and put it to a vote. Please see my previous response to you here:

Here:

Please don't do this again, Thork. We're working pretty hard to make good things happen, and your attempts at spreading dissent are just tactless. You've had your say during consultation, and you'll have your say before and during the final vote. If at any point a subject that's not a personal or petty technical issue, people will also be consulted.

Also here:

I still haven't been given a reason why merging the sites would be good for users.
You have, you simply don't like those reasons. And that's fine, we'll take it into account during the democratic vote.

Note that each of these posts was addressed to you, in response to your concerns. 3 separate posts and 4 separate statements. Let me say it again. Yes, Thork, you will get a vote.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 01:18:38 AM by pizaaplanet »
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Offline markjo

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #133 on: August 15, 2014, 01:36:20 AM »
Yes, so its very easy for PizzaPlanet to relinquish all control of the society back to Daniel, huh? I don't think we need him. In fact, I just see him undoing things when he returns thanks to the 'Daniel is in charge when he is around', clause. It seems like a very unsatisfactory state of affairs.
Perhaps you might feel better if Daniel's, Parsifal's and PizzaPlanet's roles in the merged society were clearly defined in the constitution?
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Offline Tau

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #134 on: August 15, 2014, 01:51:41 AM »
Yes, so its very easy for PizzaPlanet to relinquish all control of the society back to Daniel, huh? I don't think we need him. In fact, I just see him undoing things when he returns thanks to the 'Daniel is in charge when he is around', clause. It seems like a very unsatisfactory state of affairs.
Perhaps you might feel better if Daniel's, Parsifal's and PizzaPlanet's roles in the merged society were clearly defined in the constitution?

Nope. We're not going down that path again. The constitution has nothing to do with the website and that's that.

Thork, it's not gonna be a bad thing. It's not. Have some faith in everyone around you. Have some faith in the dozen or so other regulars who think this is a good deal. If it turns out you're right, you at the very least get a massive told-you-so, and then we can renegotiate. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Offline xasop

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #135 on: August 15, 2014, 03:14:37 AM »
I'm not suggesting the society do anything with the database at all. Only that it is deemed their property. Not Daniel's. Not PP's. Not Parsifal's. The content was generated by the society, it should belong to the society.

All this Lord Dave bollocks about hosting and maintenance is nonsense. The IP should belong to the society.

What do you mean by "own" it? It's not possible to own a database, and the only IP law I'm aware of which could possibly apply to a forum database is copyright law. Since (in most jurisdictions) authors have automatic copyright over their work, we would need to get everyone to agree to hand copyright for their posts over to some legal entity, which would need to be valid in the USA (where the primary copy of the forum database is stored) and Australia (where the backups are stored).

Even assuming you did all that, what are you going to do to enforce it? Take me or Daniel to court if things don't go the way you like? Seriously, Thork?
when you try to mock anyone while also running the flat earth society. Lol

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #136 on: August 19, 2014, 04:15:46 PM »
Good Lord, all this talk of 'reunification,' 'zetetic councillors,' 'constitutions,' 'elections' seems to overlook one serious point.

We're a website with about 20 regular members. This isn't reunifying East and West Berlin, it's reuniting the Window and Door sides of my bedroom when my brother and I had an argument when we were kids. (For the record, Window was always willing to look at merging our communities, but it was Door's insistence of keeping control of immigration matters which stalled the process)

I don't know about the rest of you but I'll just post where there happens to be interesting conversation.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #137 on: August 20, 2014, 01:16:04 AM »
Good Lord, all this talk of 'reunification,' 'zetetic councillors,' 'constitutions,' 'elections' seems to overlook one serious point.

We're a website with about 20 regular members. This isn't reunifying East and West Berlin, it's reuniting the Window and Door sides of my bedroom when my brother and I had an argument when we were kids. (For the record, Window was always willing to look at merging our communities, but it was Door's insistence of keeping control of immigration matters which stalled the process)

I don't know about the rest of you but I'll just post where there happens to be interesting conversation.
Some of us care about this society. You are more than welcome not to.
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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #138 on: August 20, 2014, 07:58:01 AM »
I do, I just don't care for the pomposity.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: On the notion of FES reunification
« Reply #139 on: August 20, 2014, 02:08:46 PM »
I do, I just don't care for the pomposity.
Okay. Well, we're trying to merge the two groups back into one, and make sure that everyone enjoys things more as a result. I agree that everything else is mostly word salad, but I don't think it's really harmful in any way.
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