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Offline spoon

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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #160 on: December 04, 2014, 06:46:35 AM »
I thought the original story was that he didn't stop Brown in relation to the robbery at all?

I think the official story is he first asked them to move off the street, then he stopped further down the road and called him to the vehicle as he fit the description of the robber.

iirc, he put his vehicle into reverse to approach Brown after realizing he fit the description of the robber.

This, of course, is the cop's testimony.
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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #161 on: December 04, 2014, 07:35:49 AM »
Well.... this is interesting.



Oh look it's black Jim Jones.

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Offline rooster

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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #162 on: December 04, 2014, 03:43:01 PM »
169 Police Officers have died from the St Louis Metropolitan Police Department.
That's almost 100 more than the Memphis Police Department.

Most cop deaths are always related to gunfire; I wonder how many of those officers were killed by black people.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 06:04:14 PM by rooster »

Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #163 on: December 07, 2014, 06:32:58 PM »
I can't seem to find the post I wanted to quote, so I'll just wing it.  Also, this isn't really meant to be a omg-you're-so-wrong post, but just an explanation of why I believe that people of color in America are still systematically oppressed.  If anyone is interested, I highly recommend the book Racism without Racists.  It's obviously a much more well-researched and persuasive text than this post will be, and you can find it online for free pretty easily.

Quote from: pp
You probably think I'm racist.
For whatever it's worth, I unequivocally do not think that you're a racist, and nothing you've said in this thread makes me think otherwise.  Our viewpoints likely only diverge from one another in just a few places.

I also don't think that systematic marginalization of people of color in America requires anyone in it to hate racial minorities.

Quote from: pp
On institutional racism.
I don't think that racism originates in institutions.  My original statement was that people of color are, in my view, systematically oppressed.  By that I mean that they are discriminated against and marginalized systematically, i.e. as a class; and, that this oppression/discrimination/marginalization is exogenous to skin color.  I believe that that marginalization comes from a multiplicity of sources, some of them institutional (more on that shortly), but most of them diffuse and subtle.

Quote from: pp
On falsifiability
Statements that take the form "All x are y," or "No x is y," are definitely falsifiable.  All swans are white.  No swan is black.  Totally falsifiable.  I don't see why similar statements, like, "No race in America is systematically marginalized," can't be falsified in principle.  It might be difficult, but I see no reason why we can't treat it as a null hypothesis and get to work crunching numbers.

Ultimately, though, I dislike falsifiability as a criterion for belief in this arena.  It's too close to logical positivism for my comfort.  The premise that falsifiability should be my criterion for belief is itself unfalsifiable.  The preponderance of evidence and a healthy dose of skepticism is good enough for me.

Quote from: pp
There is no evidence to support your claims.
This was your original claim, so I'll round things off here.  Again, I suspect that you will find these things unpersuasive, and that's no big deal.  But, for whatever it's worth, here are some of the broad strokes that cause me to believe that people of color are marginalized in American society:

(1) The most obvious in my mind is that people of color in America describe themselves as marginalized and without equality of opportunity.  There is an abundance of narratives to this effect in both academic and popular literature/media.  Not only are the narratives consistent with one another, but also they're consistent with the narratives of other peoples we know were/are oppressed and marginalized.  I have no reason or method to dispute such consistency across millions of accounts.

(2)  There's plenty of empirical research that demonstrates the existence of racial bias in many settings.  It's difficult for me to believe that this bias is unrelated to the material disparity between whites and people of color.  Here is a typical example:

http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/psp-a0035663.pdf
    We find converging evidence that Black boys are seen as older and less innocent and that they prompt a less essential conception of childhood than do their White same-age peers. Further, our findings demonstrate that the Black/ape association predicted actual racial disparities in police violence toward children.

(3)  There are plenty of institutional sources of marginalization and oppression that don't on face discriminate against people of color, and thus can't be solved by Equal Protection.  Property taxes are an excellent example.  Poor urban communities (mostly people of color) face a massive disparity in spending on education, parks, libraries, police and fire, road maintenance, etc.  That white students overwhelmingly get better access to education alone is, to me, hugely debilitating to black communities.

(4)  History is still super relevant to me, and I think that centuries and centuries of literal enslavement are very relevant to the material conditions of today's minority communities.  Even if it were true that racial bias largely disappeared in the second half of the 20th century, I don't see how that alone can even come close to equalizing racial disparity in America today.

These are just some examples, but I'm sure you get the idea at this point.

Quote from: pp
On WWII
Entirely lightheartedly, I'll totally have a history fight with you.  I dunno anything about your family's migration (obviously), but I'd be shocked if one couldn't make the case that your current citizenship is a consequence of WWII.  And your current citizenship has an obvious impact on your current/potential material conditions.  It's hard for me to see how WWII is 'over' in that sense, either for you or your grandfather.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #164 on: December 07, 2014, 11:50:59 PM »
Frankly, I'm tired of this conversation. I'll address a couple of points selectively and probably bail shortly afterwards.

(1) The most obvious in my mind is that people of color in America describe themselves as marginalized and without equality of opportunity.  There is an abundance of narratives to this effect in both academic and popular literature/media.  Not only are the narratives consistent with one another, but also they're consistent with the narratives of other peoples we know were/are oppressed and marginalized.  I have no reason or method to dispute such consistency across millions of accounts.
You do. It would be intellectually dishonest to take their word for it and assume a "guilty until proven innocent" attitude. Otherwise, there would be nothing stopping me from claiming that I'm institutionally oppressed due to WWII still being in full effect, and you'd have to take me as seriously as the Ferguson forensics denialists.

(2)  There's plenty of empirical research that demonstrates the existence of racial bias in many settings.  It's difficult for me to believe that this bias is unrelated to the material disparity between whites and people of color.
So, at the very best, you can make a claim about classism. Unless you're suggesting that a white person and a white person in an identical economic situation would still be subject to this bias, then the bias is not racial.

I don't think that racism originates in institutions.  My original statement was that people of color are, in my view, systematically oppressed. [...]
Systematic oppression is oppression which became institutionalised. At this point, you're claiming that you're talking about racism but not racism, and institutionalised but not institutionalised. The concept you're outlining at this point is not just unfalsifiable, but self-contradictory.

(4)  History is still super relevant to me, and I think that centuries and centuries of literal enslavement are very relevant to the material conditions of today's minority communities.  Even if it were true that racial bias largely disappeared in the second half of the 20th century, I don't see how that alone can even come close to equalizing racial disparity in America today.
I am a very strong opponent of any such equalisation, and I believe I made it clear by insisting on the rigid distinction between the equality of outcome and that of opportunity. More racism is not the answer to past racism. If the bias is gone, the bias is gone, and now the community simply needs time to heal. Hopefully, they will eventually realise it and stop burning their own stuff to the ground.

Entirely lightheartedly, I'll totally have a history fight with you.  I dunno anything about your family's migration (obviously), but I'd be shocked if one couldn't make the case that your current citizenship is a consequence of WWII.  And your current citizenship has an obvious impact on your current/potential material conditions.  It's hard for me to see how WWII is 'over' in that sense, either for you or your grandfather.
Yes, WWII is over. If it weren't, I'd be either dead or a Soviet spy right now. Better red than dead!
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 08:08:28 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #165 on: December 08, 2014, 12:31:17 AM »
Frankly, I'm tired of this conversation.

???

Is there a reason you're being so hostile in this discussion?  All throughout this thread, you've consistently been snide, condescending, and in general just unpleasant to people who seem to be, for the most part, bending over backwards to be respectful to you.  I'm not saying that you're breaking the rules or anything, but couldn't you tone down the snark and backhanded comments a little?  Please?  It would make for a much nicer experience for the rest of us.

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Offline rooster

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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #166 on: December 08, 2014, 03:07:36 AM »
PP has put a lot of effort into this discussion, more than anyone else. I don't blame him for being tired of it.

I see no snide.

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Offline spoon

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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #167 on: December 08, 2014, 04:01:32 AM »
Frankly, I'm tired of this conversation.

Is there a reason you're being so hostile in this discussion?

That's the best you could come up with for an example of hostility?
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Saddam Hussein

Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #168 on: December 08, 2014, 04:13:38 AM »
No, just the latest example.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 12:15:45 AM by Saddam Hussein »

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Offline Rushy

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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #169 on: December 08, 2014, 04:16:37 AM »
Well, feel free to point out more, I for one would be interested in seeing them.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #170 on: December 08, 2014, 07:29:52 AM »
No, I genuinely meant that I'm tired of it. Not because I think less of anyone here, but simply because I'd like to move on soon. I thought it would be better to say it a bit in advance than just stop replying out of the blue.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 07:34:19 AM by pizaaplanet »
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Offline model 29

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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #171 on: December 11, 2014, 05:24:44 AM »
I just had to share this bit of irony....

A white man with "Stop killing black men" written on his shirt, is hit in the head with a hammer by a black man, during a "peaceful protest". 

Saddam Hussein

Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #172 on: January 01, 2015, 10:44:28 PM »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #173 on: January 02, 2015, 12:50:47 AM »
I wonder what would happen if the police just went on strike. 
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline spoon

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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #174 on: January 02, 2015, 12:58:49 AM »
The cops should start killing black people in protest.
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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #175 on: January 02, 2015, 01:26:54 AM »
Great, now the only people who will ever want to be cops in that area will be absolutely insane psychopaths.

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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #176 on: January 02, 2015, 03:00:21 PM »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #178 on: March 12, 2015, 06:30:38 PM »
Great, now the only people who will ever want to be cops in that area will be absolutely insane psychopaths.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: R.I.P. Ferguson
« Reply #179 on: March 12, 2015, 07:04:27 PM »
They also bullied the local chief out of his job. How the hell is their government fucking this up so badly?
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