Offline Action80

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2023, 09:20:33 PM »
Jesus, you double down to claim it is only an internal combustion absent any exhaust resulting in movement.

…what? Please reread what was said.
Why does a ballerina speed up when they pull their arms in?
Do everyone a favor, okay?

Go peddle your nonsensical crapola elsewhere.

I am done with your dissimilar anologies.
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2023, 09:24:14 PM »
The plume is like any appendage and is what allows the rocket or jet to push off the atmoplane.

No defined exhaust (plume)... no movement.

Yeahh you’re going to need some supporting evidence or reasoning. Your claim is wildly inconsistent with basic observation.

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2023, 09:25:32 PM »
Do everyone a favor, okay?

Go peddle your nonsensical crapola elsewhere.

I am done with your dissimilar anologies.

Okay. Do you believe in conservation of angular momentum? If not, explain why (according to Action80ian physics) a ballerina speeds up when they pull their arms in.
I don’t know which part was nonsensical. Please be specific  :)
Or at the very least - try to keep up!
« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 09:39:58 PM by Realestfake »

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2023, 09:59:05 PM »
Yes, I have and he understands that a pressurized environment must exist for a plume to form.

Do his superiors and the engineers that designed the equipment he works on understand it?
If he were to ask the people who trained him about rockets and vacuums what would they say?

Are you smarter than them or are they lying to hide the truth?
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

If the world is flat, it means that I have been deceived by a global, multi-generational conspiracy spending trillions of dollars over hundreds of years.
If the world is round, it means that you’re just an idiot who believes stupid crap on the internet.

Offline Action80

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2023, 10:03:24 PM »
Do everyone a favor, okay?

Go peddle your nonsensical crapola elsewhere.

I am done with your dissimilar anologies.

Okay. Do you believe in conservation of angular momentum? If not, explain why (according to Action80ian physics) a ballerina speeds up when they pull their arms in.
I don’t know which part was nonsensical. Please be specific  :)
Or at the very least - try to keep up!
What "angular momentum?" A rocket is pointed toward a direction during the propulsion phase (i.e., linear momentum).  If a rocket, taking off in a pressurized environment, enters a non-pressurized environment, it will continue to move until an equal opposite force acts upon it. But its movement will soon cease because the plume can no longer maintain its integrity.

Take any one of your analogies and feel free to apply the adjective "nonsense."

Is that specific enough for you? I hope so because it is true.

Very true.
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Offline Action80

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2023, 10:05:33 PM »
Yes, I have and he understands that a pressurized environment must exist for a plume to form.

Do his superiors and the engineers that designed the equipment he works on understand it?
Of course they do.

If he were to ask the people who trained him about rockets and vacuums what would they say?
Pretty much the same thing I am.

Are you smarter than them or are they lying to hide the truth?
Lying about what?
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2023, 10:41:50 PM »
What "angular momentum?"

I’m not talking about rockets in this case. I’m asking simply if you believe the concept of conservation of angular momentum to be correct. Out of curiosity. Literally a yes or no question.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 10:52:14 PM by Realestfake »

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2023, 11:20:13 PM »
Yes, I have and he understands that a pressurized environment must exist for a plume to form.

Do his superiors and the engineers that designed the equipment he works on understand it?
Of course they do.

If he were to ask the people who trained him about rockets and vacuums what would they say?
Pretty much the same thing I am.

Are you smarter than them or are they lying to hide the truth?
Lying about what?


You have an admirable confidence that:
a.   You have understood what your nephew means, and vice versa.
b.   You nephew has fully understood what he has been taught. 
c.   The jet engine designers, engineers and technicians are also in accordance with you. 

However;

http://www.valentiniweb.com/piermo/meccanica/mat/Rolls%20Royce%20-%20The%20Jet%20Engine.pdf

This is a link to a pdf version of a go-to publication in the UK, and also much of the English-speaking world.  It is called "The Jet Engine" (ISBN 0 902121 2 35) and its published by Rolls Royce, who know a couple of things about them.  The book is standard reading for anyone in the UK who is embarking on a career in aircraft engines.  It outlines the principles of theory, design, construction and maintnenane, and not just of Rolls Royce products. 

I draw your attention to Part 1 "Basic mechanics", page 2, Paras 6 thru 9:

6. Jet propulsion is a practical application of Sir
Isaac Newton's third law of motion which states that,
'for every force acting on a body there is an opposite
and equal reaction'. For aircraft propulsion, the 'body'
is atmospheric air that is caused to accelerate as it
passes through the engine. The force required to
give this acceleration has an equal effect in the
opposite direction acting on the apparatus producing
the acceleration. A jet engine produces thrust in a
similar way to the engine/propeller combination. Both
propel the aircraft by thrusting a large weight of air
backwards (fig. 1-3), one in the form of a large air
slipstream at comparatively low speed and the other
in the form of a jet of gas at very high speed.
7. This same principle of reaction occurs in all forms
of movement and has been usefully applied in many
ways. The earliest known example of jet reaction is
that of Hero's engine (fig. 1-4) produced as a toy in
120 B.C. This toy showed how the momentum of
steam issuing from a number of jets could impart an
equal and opposite reaction to the jets themselves,
thus causing the engine to revolve.
8. The familiar whirling garden sprinkler (fig. 1-5) is
a more practical example of this principle, for the
mechanism rotates by virtue of the reaction to the
water jets. The high pressure jets of modern firefighting equipment are an example of 'jet reaction',
for often, due to the reaction of the water jet, the hose
cannot be held or controlled by one fireman. Perhaps
the simplest illustration of this principle is afforded by
the carnival balloon which, when the air or gas is
released, rushes rapidly away in the direction
opposite to the jet.
9. Jet reaction is definitely an internal phenomenon
and does not, as is frequently assumed, result from
the pressure of the jet on the atmosphere.
In fact, the
jet propulsion engine, whether rocket, athodyd, or
turbo-jet, is a piece of apparatus designed to
accelerate a stream of air or gas and to expel it at
high velocity. There are, of course, a number of ways .....

I can find no mention of "plume" in the book, but be my guest.  Perhaps you could discuss this further with your nephew. 

Edit; my Bold, btw.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 11:22:33 PM by DuncanDoenitz »

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Offline markjo

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2023, 11:37:02 PM »
What "angular momentum?"

I’m not talking about rockets in this case. I’m asking simply if you believe the concept of conservation of angular momentum to be correct. Out of curiosity. Literally a yes or no question.
You should have asked about conservation of momentum in general rather than angular momentum in particular.

I'm still curious about what quality of an exhaust plume allows it to push off a medium less dense than itself.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2023, 11:48:37 PM »
Are you smarter than them or are they lying to hide the truth?
Lying about what?
You know,
Rockets going to the moon.... satellites 20,000 miles up and all that.
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

If the world is flat, it means that I have been deceived by a global, multi-generational conspiracy spending trillions of dollars over hundreds of years.
If the world is round, it means that you’re just an idiot who believes stupid crap on the internet.

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2023, 11:51:09 PM »
What "angular momentum?"

I’m not talking about rockets in this case. I’m asking simply if you believe the concept of conservation of angular momentum to be correct. Out of curiosity. Literally a yes or no question.
You should have asked about conservation of momentum in general rather than angular momentum in particular.

I'm still curious about what quality of an exhaust plume allows it to push off a medium less dense than itself.

I agree. I’m just curious on whether he accepts a “subcategory” as an explanation for some things but not other things.

Offline Action80

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2023, 05:46:52 AM »
9. Jet reaction is definitely an internal phenomenon
and does not, as is frequently assumed, result from
the pressure of the jet on the atmosphere.
I

I can find no mention of "plume" in the book, but be my guest.  Perhaps you could discuss this further with your nephew. 

Edit; my Bold, btw.
I am only going to concern myself with this portion.

So, all internal...

And yet all the arrows in Figure 1-1 show the exhaust traveling to to the rear.

If it truly was all internal, then the thrust would be traveling to the front, like some other jokers like to claim here.

It doesn't matter what your source claims, there is a plume related to all jets and rockets (i.e., we see what is typically called a contrail), and that plume reacts with the pressurized external environment to form a force pair, which results in movement. No force pair, no movement.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2023, 12:50:32 PM by Action80 »
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2023, 05:56:25 AM »
It doesn't matter what your source claims, there is a plume related to all jets and rockets (i.e., we see what is typically called a contrail), and that plume reacts with the pressurized external environment to form a force pair, which results in movement. No force pair, no movement.

A plume is a jet of plasma. A contrail is condensed water. What does a contrail have to do with anything?
Also, the “force pair” is the gas pushing against the rocket and the rocket itself. Hope this helps!
« Last Edit: December 08, 2023, 06:03:47 AM by Realestfake »

Offline Action80

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2023, 07:38:50 AM »
It doesn't matter what your source claims, there is a plume related to all jets and rockets (i.e., we see what is typically called a contrail), and that plume reacts with the pressurized external environment to form a force pair, which results in movement. No force pair, no movement.

A plume is a jet of plasma. A contrail is condensed water. What does a contrail have to do with anything?
Also, the “force pair” is the gas pushing against the rocket and the rocket itself. Hope this helps!
The exhausted gas is part of the rocket. A rocket is a closed system.

No force pair.
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2023, 08:29:26 AM »

It doesn't matter what your source claims, there is a plume related to all jets and rockets (i.e., we see what is typically called a contrail), and that plume reacts with the pressurized external environment to form a force pair, which results in movement. No force pair, no movement.

The "source" which designs, develops and manufactures jet engines, refuted by Action80's superior insight.  And possibly his nephew. 

Offline Action80

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2023, 09:12:45 AM »

It doesn't matter what your source claims, there is a plume related to all jets and rockets (i.e., we see what is typically called a contrail), and that plume reacts with the pressurized external environment to form a force pair, which results in movement. No force pair, no movement.

The "source" which designs, develops and manufactures jet engines, refuted by Action80's superior insight.  And possibly his nephew.
If your source claims there is no force pair, then it doesn't fucking matter what anybody says, that source is fucking wrong.

Jesus, how do you think you are going to get away with posting bullshit and somebody is not going to call you out for it?

A force pair is needed.

That is plain, pure simple physics (to quote the penguin). I cannot help you cannot read or understand what your source is claiming.
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #56 on: December 08, 2023, 09:36:00 AM »
Exhaust gas accelerates right.  Reaction applies a force left.  Force pair.  Can you specify where the RR Book denies this? 

And going back a couple of posts, can you clarify you meant Fig 1.5?  That's a garden sprinkler. 

Offline Action80

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2023, 12:50:04 PM »
Exhaust gas accelerates right.  Reaction applies a force left.  Force pair.  Can you specify where the RR Book denies this? 

And going back a couple of posts, can you clarify you meant Fig 1.5?  That's a garden sprinkler.
Figure 1-1, corrected.

The exhaust is part of the jet or rocket. You must have one thing reacting with an entirely separate thing, not just part of itself.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2023, 12:51:37 PM by Action80 »
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2023, 01:48:41 PM »
Exhaust gas accelerates right.  Reaction applies a force left.  Force pair.  Can you specify where the RR Book denies this? 

And going back a couple of posts, can you clarify you meant Fig 1.5?  That's a garden sprinkler.
Figure 1-1, corrected.

The exhaust is part of the jet or rocket. You must have one thing reacting with an entirely separate thing, not just part of itself.

You and your nephew have some pretty big balls to stand up in public and say that Newton's 3rd law of physics isn't real. I'm sure you must have some amazing proof that will blow away centuries of science. Do you have any evidence that doesn't come from your own mind or from YouTube?
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

If the world is flat, it means that I have been deceived by a global, multi-generational conspiracy spending trillions of dollars over hundreds of years.
If the world is round, it means that you’re just an idiot who believes stupid crap on the internet.

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2023, 02:06:10 PM »


So, all internal...

And yet all the arrows in Figure 1-1 show the exhaust traveling to to the rear.

If it truly was all internal, then the thrust would be traveling to the front, like some other jokers like to claim here.



Got the correction; thanks.  This is a simplified diagram of the gas flow through the engine; it does not illustrate thrust.  It shows air being inducted from the left, compressed and impelled centrifugally by the compressor, diffused and entering the combustion chamber (to the right), passing though the turbine and exiting (to the right).  (Incidentally, the fact that the intake is to the left is just a convenience.  Many engines draw their air from all around, it doesn't matter.  The only important vector is that exhaust goes right, reactive thrust goes left). 

It is a simplified diagram is explaining the gas path.  To the target audience, the fact that thrust acts to the left does not require explanation.  Why would any of the arrows point left? 

An equivalent diagram for a road vehicle might show the engine, pistons, transmission and wheels going round.  The fact that the wheels try to push the road backwards does not need to be explained.