Offline Action80

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2023, 07:36:47 AM »
”In the space vacuum the exhaust gases form a large free jet, called a plume, which can impinge on neighbouring surfaces.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-0421(91)90008-R
Again, switching between the terms "space," and "deep space," is kinda funny.

Rockets can work at altitudes of 60-80 km.
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2023, 07:40:09 AM »
”In the space vacuum the exhaust gases form a large free jet, called a plume, which can impinge on neighbouring surfaces.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-0421(91)90008-R
Again, switching between the terms "space," and "deep space," is kinda funny.

Rockets can work at altitudes of 60-80 km.

This is a different paper. It makes no mention of 60-80 km. Not surprised you didn’t actually read any of it.
You know the terms “space” and “deep space” aren’t just randomly used interchangeably right?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 07:42:06 AM by Realestfake »

Offline Action80

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2023, 07:48:30 AM »
This is a different paper. It makes no mention of 60-80 km. Not surprised you didn’t actually read any of it.
You know the terms “space” and “deep space” aren’t just randomly used interchangeably right?
There was no "paper," just an abstract and a list of references, so you didn't, "read it," either.

And I agree the terms, "aren’t just randomly used interchangeably," so it would be beneficial for everyone if you stopped doing just that.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 08:21:34 AM by Action80 »
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2023, 04:12:19 PM »
And I agree the terms, "aren’t just randomly used interchangeably," so it would be beneficial for everyone if you stopped doing just that.

I… didn’t? No amount of squirming your way out of it (“heh, pick between space and deep space!”, “erm… but they said 60-80k in the same article when talking about something else…”, “erm… I will ignore the contents of what was sent because IT’S JUST REFERENCES”) changes the fact that scientists call the jet of gases coming out a rocket in space a plume. Your willful avoidance of this is just not a good look on your part  :(


”In the space vacuum the exhaust gases form a large free jet, called a plume, which can impinge on neighbouring surfaces.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-0421(91)90008-R

Anything else you have said since me bringing this up has been painfully obvious avoidance of the topic. You have arbitrarily established that plumes cannot form without pressure. There is literally nothing anywhere that demonstrates or claims this. You made it too easy.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 04:17:15 PM by Realestfake »

Offline Action80

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2023, 05:02:52 PM »
And I agree the terms, "aren’t just randomly used interchangeably," so it would be beneficial for everyone if you stopped doing just that.

I… didn’t?
Yeah, you did...
[/quote]
deep-space .”
space
Anything else you have said since me bringing this up has been painfully obvious avoidance of the topic. You have arbitrarily established that plumes cannot form without pressure. There is literally nothing anywhere that demonstrates or claims this. You made it too easy.
I have not avoided the topic at all.

I already stated how rockets move.

A gas plume from a rocket cannot form in an environment absent of external pressure.

That is the fact of the matter and nothing you have provided states otherwise, aside from the usual gaslighting bs practiced by a bunch of know-nothings trying to pass themselves off as expurtts.

They use a generic term like "space," just like you do, deliberately misleading people into picturing something like a scene from Buck Rodgers, when in fact a rocket will perform work in "space," as long that space has an adequate amount of pressure to allow a plume to form when the rocket ejects the self-contained gas.

A vacuum in "outer space" such as reported by RE-adherents, does not possess enough environmental pressure. 
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2023, 05:35:51 PM »
The ‘plumb’ in space doesn’t have anything to do with the production of a force by the rocket engine.  A rocket contains fuel that has a mass, and an amount of dormant energy.  When combustion occurs, the dormant energy is released, and that energy effectively accelerates the mass of the fuel.  The combusted fuel is accelerating out the back of the rocket.  When you apply Newton’s law you have an equal and opposite amount of force (F = MA) applied on the rocket in the direction opposite to the direction of the exiting combusted fuel.  It doesn’t matter if the rocket’s environment is in air or a vacuum.  Newton’s law applies equally in either environment. 
You can lead flat earthers to the curve but you can't make them think!

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2023, 05:41:55 PM »
Whether a plume can form in a vacuum or not, can you expand on its relevance to propulsion?  Your opening hypothesis is that a plume somehow imparts movement to the rocket, but you have not explained how this happens; what is the science behind this? 

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2023, 05:47:50 PM »
I already stated how rockets move.

You stated how you think rockets move, as did Tom Bishop. Nothing of value was provided as evidence or reasoning.
If I throw a bowling ball while standing on a skateboard, did air resistance move me in the opposite direction?

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2023, 06:22:49 PM »
And I agree the terms, "aren’t just randomly used interchangeably," so it would be beneficial for everyone if you stopped doing just that.

I’m sorry Action, but you’re just fundamentally unprepared for this debate. You were unable to discern the terminology of “space” vs “deep space” and inappropriately attributed to a mistake on MY end.

To quote the article: “satellites, spaceships, space stations and deep-space probes”

This is absolutely correct usage because probes are in fact designed for deep space, while space stations are in LEO. You saying I’m using them “interchangeably” demonstrates your own lack of understanding  :(
I recognize you have nothing to add and honestly? That’s okay. You have time to learn still.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 06:26:48 PM by Realestfake »

Offline Action80

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2023, 07:08:14 PM »
Ronj is going on about a "plumb," he must have pulled out with his thumb over in a corner somewhere. Conveniently forgetting that no "plumb," assigns a big fat 0 to the A in the equation. I don't care if you multiply 1,000,000 M's to the big fat 0 of A, F will end up as a big fat 0.

Donutz is still asking how jets move when he is supposedly a former jet engine mechanic (by the way my nephew is currently employed by United Airlines, having served over 10 years as a former Air Force jet engine mechanic). Jets too, form a plume in the pressurized atmoplane, allowing them to move. The only difference in accomplishing their operation of movement is jets require an intake of external oxygen to achieve combustion (open system), whereas rockets do not have air intakes and have a self-contained material allowing combustion to take place when it is mixed with the fuel.

And faker is going on about who is ill-prepared, when his lack of reasoning has been so thoroughly discredited on this site it is laughable.

You are the one, faker, who was posting the bounce-around terms, clearly subscribing to them, just willy-nilly all over the place.

Really laughable.

Typical.

Rockets work in a pressurized environment where they can form a plume.

No external pressure outside the rocket?

No plume.

No plume?

No movement.

The end.


« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 07:21:25 PM by Action80 »
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2023, 08:04:27 PM »
No external pressure outside the rocket?

No plume.

No plume?

No movement.

The end.

If I throw a bowling ball while standing on a skateboard, did I move backwards because of air resistance?

I’m going to make this incredibly simple.
You want to use the “pushing off an atmosphere” idea.
Okay.
Imagine the inside of an engine. The explosive power of the combustion pushes against the inside of the engine opposite of the plume, moving the rocket. No part of that process required an atmosphere.
The rocket is pushing against something inside itself.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 08:19:56 PM by Realestfake »

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Offline RonJ

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2023, 08:23:02 PM »
You put some rocket fuel inside a rocket and ignite the fuel to release a quantity of energy.  The fuel is transformed from a solid (or liquid) to a very hot expanding gas.  The gas is confined inside the rocket ignition chamber with only one way out.  Pressure builds up and the very hot gas exits thru the engine’s nozzle that helps to accelerate the gas.  The hot exiting gas’s mass will be equal to the mass of the fuel that was burned.  Now you have the mass(M) in the equation.  The hot gas exiting the rocket engine is traveling at a high speed so, since it was almost zero velocity at the start, has accelerated greatly while traveling through the nozzle.  Now you have the (A) acceleration part.  Since the force is equal to the mass times the acceleration, you have a force opposite the direction of the rockets exiting gas.  There’s no air mentioned in the equation anywhere. All that is needed is an accelerating mass.   


If anything, the surrounding air will only slow the rocket’s acceleration.  Any force produced by the air pushing the rocket up will be balanced out by the force of the air pushing back on the nose of the rocket.  If the surface of the earth was a vacuum the acceleration of the rocket would be greater, all things being equal. 
You can lead flat earthers to the curve but you can't make them think!

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2023, 08:24:00 PM »
Donutz is still asking how jets move when he is supposedly a former jet engine mechanic (by the way my nephew is currently employed by United Airlines, having served over 10 years as a former Air Force jet engine mechanic). Jets too, form a plume in the pressurized atmoplane, allowing them to move.

lol   so... Does your nephew agree with you that rockets only work within the confines of an atmosphere? Did he learn that is his Air Force training? You two could challenge everything we know about physics.

If I throw a bowling ball while standing on a skateboard, did I move backwards because of air resistance?

This was all thoroughly debated in another thread and every example was proposed. An astronaut floating in space fires a shotgun, a catapult launching a rock, a dude in a vacuum sits on a hand grenade and doesn't move when it goes off... Apparently, our understanding of physics is all part of some liberal hoax cabal or something. Action80 and his nephew are the only ones who know the truth. You'd think that with such awesome knowledge that they'd be rich and famous engineers making $250,000 USD a year.
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

If the world is flat, it means that I have been deceived by a global, multi-generational conspiracy spending trillions of dollars over hundreds of years.
If the world is round, it means that you’re just an idiot who believes stupid crap on the internet.

Offline Action80

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2023, 08:26:30 PM »
No external pressure outside the rocket?

No plume.

No plume?

No movement.

The end.

If I throw a bowling ball while standing on a skateboard, did I move backwards because of air resistance?
Using an inappropriate analogy isn't going to help you.
I’m going to make this incredibly simple.
You want to use the “pushing off an atmosphere” idea.
Okay.
Imagine the inside of an engine. The explosive power of the combustion pushes against the inside of the engine opposite of the plume, moving the rocket. No part of that process required an atmosphere.
The rocket is pushing against something inside itself.
No concept of a force pair exists in your fake and false description.

Combustion takes place separately and distinctly from the exhaust process.

Your posts are nonsensical and reek of desperation.

Hold onto your folly.

Leave reality to the sane.
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Offline Action80

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2023, 08:29:55 PM »
An astronaut floating in space fires a shotgun, a catapult launching a rock, a dude in a vacuum sits on a hand grenade and doesn't move when it goes off...
I see where the faker gets his nonsensical and fake analogies.
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2023, 08:36:55 PM »
No concept of a force pair exists in your fake and false description.

Combustion takes place separately and distinctly from the exhaust process.

Your posts are nonsensical and reek of desperation.

Hold onto your folly.

Leave reality to the sane.

Explain in detail why it is “fake and false”. The rocket is being pushed against by an internal combustion (which results in gas being accelerated outwards). I really try to not debate with beginner-levels but I do want to help.


”In the space vacuum the exhaust gases form a large free jet, called a plume, which can impinge on neighbouring surfaces.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-0421(91)90008-R
No, a plume cannot form in an environment where there is no pressure.

You not agreeing what a “plume” is against the rest of the world is literally nobody’s problem but yours. Lol.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2023, 08:45:20 PM by Realestfake »

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2023, 08:39:26 PM »
@Action. First of all respect to your nephew; serving his country in the military and then transferring those learned skills to the airline industry.  Similar career path to mine, though in the UK. 

Following up on Dr v-N, I wonder if you have actually discussed jet engine theory with your nephew, or whether you are just throwing in random relatives in the hope that it will lend your argument some kudos.  My sister is a nurse, but that wouldn't reinforce any argument I might make about Covid. 

And I don't like labouring a point, but you still haven't explained how the presence of a plume lends thrust to the jet/rocket. 

Offline Action80

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2023, 09:14:58 PM »
No concept of a force pair exists in your fake and false description.

Combustion takes place separately and distinctly from the exhaust process.

Your posts are nonsensical and reek of desperation.

Hold onto your folly.

Leave reality to the sane.

Explain in detail why it is “fake and false”. The rocket is being pushed against by an internal combustion (which results in gas being accelerated outwards). I really try to not debate with beginner-levels but I do want to help.
Jesus, you double down to claim it is only an internal combustion absent any exhaust resulting in movement.

Unbelievable!


I will spare you the rest here, because you are simply clueless.
”In the space vacuum the exhaust gases form a large free jet, called a plume, which can impinge on neighbouring surfaces.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-0421(91)90008-R
No, a plume cannot form in an environment where there is no pressure.

You not agreeing what a “plume” is against the rest of the world is literally nobody’s problem but yours. Lol.
I agree what a plume is and have already stated as such.

Your LOL is simply you laughing at your own nonsense.

I am not the one with a problem, you are.
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.

Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2023, 09:18:24 PM »
Jesus, you double down to claim it is only an internal combustion absent any exhaust resulting in movement.

…what? Please reread what was said.
Why does a ballerina speed up when they pull their arms in?

Offline Action80

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Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2023, 09:18:47 PM »
@Action. First of all respect to your nephew; serving his country in the military and then transferring those learned skills to the airline industry.  Similar career path to mine, though in the UK. 

Following up on Dr v-N, I wonder if you have actually discussed jet engine theory with your nephew, or whether you are just throwing in random relatives in the hope that it will lend your argument some kudos.  My sister is a nurse, but that wouldn't reinforce any argument I might make about Covid. 

And I don't like labouring a point, but you still haven't explained how the presence of a plume lends thrust to the jet/rocket.
Yes, I have and he understands that a pressurized environment must exist for a plume to form.

The plume is like any appendage and is what allows the rocket or jet to push off the atmoplane.

No defined exhaust (plume)... no movement.
To be honest I am getting pretty bored of this place.