Offline iamcpc

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2019, 08:45:19 PM »
No, I have not and I will not

Forming an opinion without doing any research whatsoever.  I hope that works out for you.

Atmospheric conditions, particulate count, humidity, whatever, cannot make buildings shorter.  The gradient from ground up cannot be so steep so as to totally obscure one floor while the one above is perfectly clear.  To say that it can is a ridiculous argument and you know it.

Hmm if atmospheric conditions can't do those things then this video is just showing a magical floating ship? I don't think so.




According to this something as simple as temperature can trick you brain into making an image of a floating ship! So Atmospheric conditions can make ships fly but not possibly stretch something? Unlike you I present evidence.

https://www.metabunk.org/simulating-atmospheric-refraction.t7881/

Here's a video in which someone has attempted to simulate refraction and I notice that things do appear to be stretching, warping, and reflecting


This is a very basic simulator which I don't believe counts for the dozens, if not hundreds, of variables which can be present and affect the path light takes when traveling through the atmosphere.

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Offline stack

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2019, 09:19:41 PM »
Quote
That image is a wonderful demonstration of predicted observations in a vacuum. Unfortunately we don't live in one. How would that look over a mile at sea level, with a a high barometric pressure, 80 degreess, medium pollen count, low air quality, in Florida in September?

I have no idea.  But pollen and humidity don't make buildings shorter, as they clearly are in image 2.  And pollen and humidity cannot explain why there is a clear demarcation between the tops and bottoms of the buildings as in image 1.  If the 19th floor (or whatever it is) in image 1 is completely obscured and the 20th is crystal clear, that cannot be explained by air quality.

I would also say that pollen and humidity do not account for a setting sun that slowly glides below the horizon, disappears for 12 hours or so, then rises up somewhere behind you. Perspective doesn't account for this, as the sun doesn't get smaller as it sets. Some sort of odd atmospheric magnification doesn't account for it not becoming smaller due to 'perspective' as evidenced by solar filtering and clear skies. You would have to have the exact same atmospheric magic miraging occur everywhere a sunset can be viewed on the planet. So yeah, atmospheric refraction/miraging accounts for some things we observe. But not each and every sunset, each and every day, all around the world.

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #62 on: August 02, 2019, 10:06:31 PM »
No, I have not and I will not

Forming an opinion without doing any research whatsoever.  I hope that works out for you.

Atmospheric conditions, particulate count, humidity, whatever, cannot make buildings shorter.  The gradient from ground up cannot be so steep so as to totally obscure one floor while the one above is perfectly clear.  To say that it can is a ridiculous argument and you know it.

Hmm if atmospheric conditions can't do those things then this video is just showing a magical floating ship? I don't think so.




According to this something as simple as temperature can trick you brain into making an image of a floating ship! So Atmospheric conditions can make ships fly but not possibly stretch something? Unlike you I present evidence.

https://www.metabunk.org/simulating-atmospheric-refraction.t7881/

Here's a video in which someone has attempted to simulate refraction and I notice that things do appear to be stretching, warping, and reflecting


This is a very basic simulator which I don't believe counts for the dozens, if not hundreds, of variables which can be present and affect the path light takes when traveling through the atmosphere.

Well now you've lost me.  Are you saying that weird atmospheric conditions are responsible for those images in #19?  Because that's what several of us have been arguing all along.  Of course it's a false image.  But if you are saying that it is a real actual image and it's only distorted by atmospherics, then no sale.    Picking and choosing  facts based on the argument is not a good look.  "Don't trust your eyes, they can play tricks on you" one moment, "Of course you can see Chicago from across the lake.  This image proves it."  the next.


Offline iamcpc

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #63 on: August 02, 2019, 10:16:37 PM »

Well now you've lost me.  Are you saying that weird atmospheric conditions are responsible for those images in #19? 

what is #19?

Because that's what several of us have been arguing all along.  Of course it's a false image.  But if you are saying that it is a real actual image and it's only distorted by atmospherics, then no sale.

What image are you talking about? I linked two videos.

   Picking and choosing  facts based on the argument is not a good look.  "Don't trust your eyes, they can play tricks on you" one moment, "Of course you can see Chicago from across the lake.  This image proves it."  the next.

I've already explained this to you. I'm saying don't 100% form an opinion based entirely on a small set of visual observations. Visual observations can be incorrect and her are examples why:

I'm only presenting evidence. Which you have failed to do throughout this entire discussion.

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #64 on: August 02, 2019, 10:18:00 PM »
Quote
what is #19?

Post #19

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2019, 10:27:05 PM »
Quote
what is #19?

Post #19

Ahh ok then I can respond.

Of course it's a false image. 

Well since you love making things up and backing it up with no evidence I can do the same.

The image of post #19 was verified to be correct and accurate by the Harvard Optics department as well as the MIT optics department.

When you make things up it really does not help your case at all.

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2019, 10:28:40 PM »
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I've already explained this to you. I'm saying don't 100% form an opinion based entirely on a small set of visual observations.

I see the sun set below the horizon every day.  that's not a small set.  I have thousands of hours of flight time.  Unless I'm in the clouds, I can always see further than I can on the ground.  And the higher up, the further I can see.  That's not a small set.  It happens every single time.  Take off in an airplane shortly after sunset heading west.  Soon the sun will rise above the horizon, and keep rising until you level off.  If you go fast enough, it will set very slowly even though it is completely dark below.  Every time.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #67 on: August 02, 2019, 10:57:47 PM »
And the higher up, the further I can see.  That's not a small set.  It happens every single time. 

Every single time you go to higher altitude you are experience the earth from a very different atmosphere than the one you experience at sea level. Very different atmospheric composition, different density, different temperature etc.

I've already provided evidence which suggests something as simple as temperature layers can make our brains think a ship is flying in the air. We are talking about temperature layers now and atmosphere layers, and whole plethora of chaotic variables that you simply REFUSE to acknowledge could possibly have an impact on the observations you make.

 Atmospheric refraction is real. You should at least make an attempt to factor it into your observations before you become so adamant about believing what you see. You are outright ignoring it. Just like, when I make a flying ship observation, I (and the rest of the scientific community) try to understand what's really going on before standing up and saying "LOOK!!! A FLYING SHIP!!!"

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #68 on: August 02, 2019, 11:02:14 PM »
Quote
Every single time you go to higher altitude you are experience the earth from a very different atmosphere than the one you experience at sea level. Very different atmospheric composition, different density, different temperature etc.

Yes.  We have been through this.  And the math doesn't work to support your assertions.  It simply doesn't. I shown the calculations earlier in this thread.  I'm not going to do them again.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #69 on: August 02, 2019, 11:34:49 PM »

Yes.  We have been through this.  And the math doesn't work to support your assertions.  It simply doesn't. I shown the calculations earlier in this thread.  I'm not going to do them again.

The math that I saw was a triangle and you made no attempt whatsoever to even ATTEMPT to account for chaotic atmospheric viewing conditions.


You should at least make an attempt to factor it into your observations before you become so adamant about believing what you see. You are outright ignoring it. Just like, when I make a flying ship observation, I (and the rest of the scientific community) try to understand what's really going on before standing up and saying "LOOK!!! A FLYING SHIP!!!"

You, on the other hand, Ignore any sort of optical anomalies and have proudly proclaimed the ship to be flying while also presenting no evidence whatsoever that the ship is flying.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 11:36:29 PM by iamcpc »

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #70 on: August 02, 2019, 11:45:46 PM »
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The math that I saw was a triangle and you made no attempt whatsoever to even ATTEMPT to account for chaotic atmospheric viewing conditions.

Because it doesn't matter.  It makes no logical sense that a light ray parallel to the surface gets blocked by chaotic atmospheric viewing conditions at ~ 7 miles, but one with a degree or 2 rise can be viewed from hundreds of miles away.  If it were a little further, I could concede your point.  But we are talking more than an order of magnitude further.  And not just once in a while, every single time there is not cloud interference, which is to say, most of the time. 

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #71 on: August 03, 2019, 02:00:19 AM »
Because it doesn't matter.
Another claim presented with no evidence which I will put in the made up pile.

It makes no logical sense that a light ray parallel to the surface gets blocked by chaotic atmospheric viewing conditions at ~ 7 miles, but one with a degree or 2 rise can be viewed from hundreds of miles away.  If it were a little further, I could concede your point.  But we are talking more than an order of magnitude further.  And not just once in a while, every single time there is not cloud interference, which is to say, most of the time.

To me it make no sense that warm air above cold air makes ships fly in the air but that's what science and our modern understanding of optics says happens.

Also keep in mind that our current understanding of optics changes as technology improves and allows for

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #72 on: August 03, 2019, 02:17:08 AM »
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To me it make no sense that warm air above cold air makes ships fly in the air but that's what science and our modern understanding of optics says happens.

No. That makes perfect sense.  One that can be explained by science.  Light that travels parallel to the ground is blocked at about 7 miles or less every time, but light with a 1.5 degree angle of incidence can travel for hundreds of miles unimpeded cannot. 

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Offline stack

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #73 on: August 03, 2019, 02:23:45 AM »
And the higher up, the further I can see.  That's not a small set.  It happens every single time. 

Every single time you go to higher altitude you are experience the earth from a very different atmosphere than the one you experience at sea level. Very different atmospheric composition, different density, different temperature etc.

I've already provided evidence which suggests something as simple as temperature layers can make our brains think a ship is flying in the air. We are talking about temperature layers now and atmosphere layers, and whole plethora of chaotic variables that you simply REFUSE to acknowledge could possibly have an impact on the observations you make.

 Atmospheric refraction is real. You should at least make an attempt to factor it into your observations before you become so adamant about believing what you see. You are outright ignoring it. Just like, when I make a flying ship observation, I (and the rest of the scientific community) try to understand what's really going on before standing up and saying "LOOK!!! A FLYING SHIP!!!"

I don't think anyone is saying atmospheric effects account for nothing. Sometimes they are massively in play, sometimes not at all and everywhere inbetween. But to make the sun disappear, literally like clockwork, every day for everyone on earth, for 12 hours or so, can't be chalked up to the same atmospheric effects. To do so would be to say at every sunset, ""LOOK!!! A FLYING SHIP!!!"

Offline Zonk

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #74 on: August 03, 2019, 02:35:51 AM »
And the higher up, the further I can see.  That's not a small set.  It happens every single time. 

Every single time you go to higher altitude you are experience the earth from a very different atmosphere than the one you experience at sea level. Very different atmospheric composition, different density, different temperature etc.

I've already provided evidence which suggests something as simple as temperature layers can make our brains think a ship is flying in the air. We are talking about temperature layers now and atmosphere layers, and whole plethora of chaotic variables that you simply REFUSE to acknowledge could possibly have an impact on the observations you make.

 Atmospheric refraction is real. You should at least make an attempt to factor it into your observations before you become so adamant about believing what you see. You are outright ignoring it. Just like, when I make a flying ship observation, I (and the rest of the scientific community) try to understand what's really going on before standing up and saying "LOOK!!! A FLYING SHIP!!!"

I don't think anyone is saying atmospheric effects account for nothing. Sometimes they are massively in play, sometimes not at all and everywhere inbetween. But to make the sun disappear, literally like clockwork, every day for everyone on earth, for 12 hours or so, can't be chalked up to the same atmospheric effects. To do so would be to say at every sunset, ""LOOK!!! A FLYING SHIP!!!"

The time of the sunset is predictable, every day, without fail.  It does not depend on atmospheric effects.  Even if there is cloud cover, the position of the sun can be inferred with exact  precision. It never varies. 

I have  no idea what the temperature, humidity, pollen count, etc, will be for Chicago next Friday.  But I know the sun will set at 8:09 PM.  And it will.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2019, 02:46:53 AM by Zonk »

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #75 on: August 05, 2019, 08:45:30 PM »
The time of the sunset is predictable, every day, without fail.  It does not depend on atmospheric effects.  Even if there is cloud cover, the position of the sun can be inferred with exact  precision. It never varies. 

I have  no idea what the temperature, humidity, pollen count, etc, will be for Chicago next Friday.  But I know the sun will set at 8:09 PM.  And it will.

According to the article below you are wrong.

https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/refraction.html



"So, if you watch the Sun set in an area of high pressure on a cold day, you may have to wait several seconds for the upper edge of the Sun to disappear behind the horizon, compared to a day with average pressure and temperature."

So the difference between high pressure and low temperature and average pressure and average temperature is several seconds.

What about humidity? What about air quality? What about pollen and smog? What about cloud cover/fog? What about wind speed?


What is the difference between high pressure and low temperature and low pressure and high temperature? Several minutes?



Furthermore just because you see the sun rise or set does not mean that the sun really has rise or set.

This article provides evidence that when you see the sun "setting" it has, in reality, already set.
https://www.hko.gov.hk/m/article_e.htm?title=ele_00493

« Last Edit: August 05, 2019, 10:11:23 PM by iamcpc »

Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #76 on: August 06, 2019, 12:05:39 AM »
Ok, firstly thanks for the replies! Made some interesting reading. A few things I will point out, it's already been stated but there are many instances where either side says "my proof is I've seen it with my own eyes" or similar and the other debunks it because they haven't seen it. That's childish view points in my opinion.

One thing I would like to point out is in post #12 in reply to my second lot of questions/statements about "spinning objects" so to do exactly what I just said was childish in the previous paragraph, I have literally seen toilets spin the opposite way round in Australia to what it does here in the UK. Every time I went to the toilet in the 12 days I was in Australia and New Zealand (I traveled to 10 cities across both countries) and each time they spun the opposite direction to here. Every time. That was using different toilets in different buildings in different cities. Simply saying no they don't isn't a helpful way to have this discussion. What would it take? Me to stay by your side and repeat the trip to Australia (to ensure I'm not using setup toilets you could choose the city and toilet in this hypothetical experiment) and compare and record them using your own tested to be accurate camera? Trees are the same, I've always been fascinated by twists in trees and these again differ, I could provide photos but someone would just say I doctored the image or something.

Here is a question then. If you had the means to do so, and you flew 300,000metres above the surface of the Earth using something you built yourself would that be evidence enough for you to see for yourself whether it was or wasn't flat?

Another question. If the sun and the moon rotate around the disk, how come I can't see the sun (a burning ball of fire or whatever it is in FE models) from any point of the land? I don't understand how it can go from directly above my head to below the horizon in a FE model? Surely it would just get smaller and less visible the same height in the sky until it faded away? Or move across in a straight line until it started curving through its rotation?

For the posts quoting the Bible, you are talking to the wrong person here. I am not in the slightest interested in what the Bible says. Or any religious book for that matter. The religious books became a means for the weak to control the strong but that's a separate discussion.

EDIT: are there any links to articles where a FE believer became a RE believer?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 12:07:57 AM by Tr1ggsy »

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Offline stack

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #77 on: August 06, 2019, 12:09:35 AM »
The time of the sunset is predictable, every day, without fail.  It does not depend on atmospheric effects.  Even if there is cloud cover, the position of the sun can be inferred with exact  precision. It never varies. 

I have  no idea what the temperature, humidity, pollen count, etc, will be for Chicago next Friday.  But I know the sun will set at 8:09 PM.  And it will.

According to the article below you are wrong.

https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/refraction.html

"So, if you watch the Sun set in an area of high pressure on a cold day, you may have to wait several seconds for the upper edge of the Sun to disappear behind the horizon, compared to a day with average pressure and temperature."

So the difference between high pressure and low temperature and average pressure and average temperature is several seconds.

What about humidity? What about air quality? What about pollen and smog? What about cloud cover/fog? What about wind speed?

What is the difference between high pressure and low temperature and low pressure and high temperature? Several minutes?

Furthermore just because you see the sun rise or set does not mean that the sun really has rise or set.

This article provides evidence that when you see the sun "setting" it has, in reality, already set.
https://www.hko.gov.hk/m/article_e.htm?title=ele_00493

From your article:

"For example in Hong Kong, the atmospheric refraction causes the sunrise and sunset to appear about 2 minutes early and late respectively when compared to the situation without the atmospheric refraction."

Two points here. There are places on earth that at a various times experience refraction effects and some that don't. For example, if next Friday in Chicago there happens to be a lot of refraction elements mucking about, Zonk's observed sunset will be at 8:11. If it's clear as a bell, his observed sunset will be at 8:09 as stated/predicted. 2 minutes difference.

We are not talking about 2 minutes. We're talking about 12 hours +/-. Zonk can set his watch to the sunset and worst case scenario, be off by 2 minutes or so. A sunset/sunrise is just that predictable. What's not in the mix is atmospheric conditions causing the sun to set, slip behind the horizon, turn day to night, completely disappear only to reappear behind you some 12 hours later. That's what we're talking about.

totallackey

Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #78 on: August 06, 2019, 10:42:34 AM »
Ok, firstly thanks for the replies! Made some interesting reading. A few things I will point out, it's already been stated but there are many instances where either side says "my proof is I've seen it with my own eyes" or similar and the other debunks it because they haven't seen it. That's childish view points in my opinion.

One thing I would like to point out is in post #12 in reply to my second lot of questions/statements about "spinning objects" so to do exactly what I just said was childish in the previous paragraph, I have literally seen toilets spin the opposite way round in Australia to what it does here in the UK. Every time I went to the toilet in the 12 days I was in Australia and New Zealand (I traveled to 10 cities across both countries) and each time they spun the opposite direction to here. Every time. That was using different toilets in different buildings in different cities. Simply saying no they don't isn't a helpful way to have this discussion. What would it take? Me to stay by your side and repeat the trip to Australia (to ensure I'm not using setup toilets you could choose the city and toilet in this hypothetical experiment) and compare and record them using your own tested to be accurate camera? Trees are the same, I've always been fascinated by twists in trees and these again differ, I could provide photos but someone would just say I doctored the image or something.
Water going down a toilet or sink has nothing to do with the shape of the earth.

Please perform more research.

This topic has been adequately debunked.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Questions after watching documentaries
« Reply #79 on: August 06, 2019, 10:50:14 AM »
I have literally seen toilets spin the opposite way round in Australia to what it does here in the UK.
Regardless of your views on the shape of the Earth, what you have "literally seen" is an urban myth, peddled primarily by con artists living around the equator. There are many factors at play here, but Coriolis is not one of them - in the Round Earth model, the force would simply be too weak to be of any significance.

Some aids:

This is a recurring question, one almost as good as "I have literally seen the curvature of the Earth on my overnight flight to Atlanta!" - you literally haven't. Humans are excitable and biased creatures. Your senses are the best way of learning about the world around you, and you should absolutely trust them. But you should also know their limitations, and account for them when necessary.

And, frankly, I doubt you actually paid as much attention to your toilets as you claim - don't you thing it sounds a bit strange to claim that you carefully observed every toilet you've used in Australia and New Zealand, noting the direction of the spin, and comparing it to every toilet you've witnessed in the UK? Surely you weren't that bored when you needed to pee?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 10:53:06 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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