Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #340 on: August 26, 2014, 12:06:24 PM »
Actually, no. But its easy enough to find. I read it quite awhile back, and didn't feel it necessary to keep a link to it. It shouldn't be hard to find, however.

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Offline markjo

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #341 on: August 26, 2014, 12:28:10 PM »
If Israel could make peace with Egypt, then why can't they work something out with Hamas?  After all, if I make them my friend, have I not destroyed them as an enemy?
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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #342 on: August 26, 2014, 12:30:23 PM »
If Israel could make peace with Egypt, then why can't they work something out with Hamas?  After all, if I make them my friend, have I not destroyed them as an enemy?
Because they like money more than foreigners.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #343 on: August 26, 2014, 12:49:29 PM »
Actually, no. But its easy enough to find. I read it quite awhile back, and didn't feel it necessary to keep a link to it. It shouldn't be hard to find, however.
Found it.
It doesn't say that all Jews must be killed, only that they are enemies for (in some cases) good reasons.  It does state that Jews can live peacefully under Islam so long as they don't try to claim dominance over Islam. (Paraphrasing)

Though they are going to dissolve Israel.  Also, Hama's has politically denounced the charter as irrelevant and not being followed.
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Offline Lord Wilmore

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #344 on: August 26, 2014, 01:19:19 PM »
The problem is that Yaakov thinks most of the world hates Israel because its Jewish, whereas most of the world actually hates Israel because of the shit it stirs up. This leads to overall Jewish hate. Basically, he suffers from "don't hate me because I'm beautiful" syndrome.


So in until 1947 people just hated Jews for being Jews, but then in 1948 everyone magically stopped hating Jews, and from then on focussed their anger on the world's only Jewish state (what a coincidence!), which was constantly stirring things up giving people an excuse to hate Jews. So really it's the Jews who are responsible for antisemitism!


There's no doubt that anti-zionism is a distinct political position from antisemitism. But you're kidding yourself if you think antisemitism is not a huge undercurrent in both anti-zionist and pro-Palestinian circles.


A really good example of this is the campaign to boycott Israel by pro-Palestinians. One might think that right from the off, people of white European ancestry would find the idea of boycotting the world's only Jewish state a bit uncomfortable - 'gee guys, isn't this power dynamic a bit too familiar, could we maybe think of something else?' - but apparently not. However, when the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas explicitly opposed the boycotting of Israeli goods and services, so-called 'pro-Palestinians' were outraged! Hell, even Chomsky thinks boycotting Israel is going too far, but it seems some Europeans just can't resist the urge to get back to old habits and boycott the Jews! Even when it's not in the interest of (or supported by) the people they're supposedly trying to help.


I think it says worlds about the BDS movement that they are more attached to their tactics than their cause.


The UK was regularly rocked by IRA bombs between the 60s to the 90s. My own town has a momument to the people killed by explosions deliberately planted in pubs. We didn't respond by levelling half of Dublin or expanding Northern Ireland ever southwards with the backing of bulldozers. We responded with a long, patient, police and intelligence mission, identifying those individuals responsible and arresting them (sometimes wrongly, but at least we could release the Birmingham Six, rather than scraping them out of body bags). We eventually came to a settlement and talks continue to this day.


Chris, I'm no republican, but this is essentially nonsense. There was a military occupation of Northern Ireland, with over 27,000 British troops deployed in the province at the height of the conflict (for context, that is far more than were ever stationed in Afghanistan, and for extra context about 46,000 troops were used in the invasion of Iraq in 2003). The SAS were used aggressively to hunt down and ambush IRA members/units, there were numerous incidents of the state killing unarmed civilians, and last year it came to light that the British Army operated state-sanctioned death squads for 18 months in west Belfast. And that's before you get to incidents like Bloody Sunday and state collusion with Loyalist forces.


All in all, I don't think the conflict in Northern Ireland is necessarily the best place to launch a critique of Israeli policy from, especially as the conflict has its roots in the settlement of Ulster by British colonists, and the resulting displacement and subjugation of Catholics.


If Israel could make peace with Egypt, then why can't they work something out with Hamas?  After all, if I make them my friend, have I not destroyed them as an enemy?


Those are very different situations. After all, even Egypt doesn't get on with Hamas. I think people need to realise that Hamas are not like Fatah, and that militancy and Jihad are central to the spirit and aims of their organisation. That being said, Israel hasn't exactly jumped over itself to draw up a peace deal with Fatah either, so it's only half of an excuse.


Actually, no. But its easy enough to find. I read it quite awhile back, and didn't feel it necessary to keep a link to it. It shouldn't be hard to find, however.
Found it.
It doesn't say that all Jews must be killed, only that they are enemies for (in some cases) good reasons.  It does state that Jews can live peacefully under Islam so long as they don't try to claim dominance over Islam. (Paraphrasing)

Though they are going to dissolve Israel.  Also, Hama's has politically denounced the charter as irrelevant and not being followed.


Yeah, but they also say it can't be changed for "internal reasons". It's hard to see what that could mean other than it having significant internal support, even if Hamas would like to gloss over it in public.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Offline Rushy

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #345 on: August 26, 2014, 02:04:07 PM »
Israel isn't and never has been "the jews." Israel is a country, one that only gets away with the shit they do because they have a cozy political tie with the US. When you start thinking about boycotting Israel and say "no, no, you shouldn't boycott 'the jews'" you've already missed the point. There is no reason to ever defend what Israel is doing and the country should not, nor ever, exist. It was the dumbest idea in the history of the UN to form an aggressive land-dominating state right in the middle of one of the most war-torn areas in the history of man.

Quote
So really it's the Jews who are responsible for antisemitism!

In some ways, it unfortunately is. For every x amount of normal Jews that shouldn't be hated, you'll have at least one Yaakov that gears everyone up for the hate train. It's easy to hate people like Yaakov and it's even easier to hate them because he is a Jew, but correlation isn't causation. Someone like Yaakov would look down on other people, regardless of whether he was born a Jew or not. It's just his vile personality.

There is no group in the world that doesn't have some hatred from another group. It's what people do. I happened to hate a country, and I can tell you right now it isn't because it is mostly Jewish.

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Offline Lord Wilmore

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #346 on: August 26, 2014, 03:23:06 PM »
Israel isn't and never has been "the jews." Israel is a country, one that only gets away with the shit they do because they have a cozy political tie with the US. When you start thinking about boycotting Israel and say "no, no, you shouldn't boycott 'the jews'" you've already missed the point.


Israel is the world's only Jewish state. There is quite clearly a link between Israel and Jewish people. To deny this is ridiculous, and to claim that antisemitism does not motivate a great deal of anti-Israeli sentiment is also ridiculous. I'm not saying it's behind all of it, but a lot of people seem to want to imagine antisemitism away, and pretend that it can't possibly be part of the debate surrounding Israel. This is either naive, or worse, dishonest. It is ridiculous to claim, as you have done, that Israel is the cause of antisemitism, when antisemitism long predates the state of Israel.


There is no reason to ever defend what Israel is doing and the country should not, nor ever, exist. It was the dumbest idea in the history of the UN to form an aggressive land-dominating state right in the middle of one of the most war-torn areas in the history of man.


I don't have to defend what Israel is doing to think that boycotting the country is a bad idea, and to question the motives of westerners who support a boycott in spite of Palestinian insistence that there shouldn't be a boycott. I don't have to defend the Israeli occupation of the West Bank (and effective occupation of Gaza) to recognise that to say Israel "should not, nor ever, exist" is a statement as antithetical to the principle of self-determination as anything Yaakov has said.


Whether Israel should have been created or not is irrelevant. It was, and is thoroughly established. There are adults living in Israel whose families have been there for three generations. The whole problem is that Israelis have given themselves meaningful self-determination whilst denying it to the Palestinians. You're suggesting that instead of fixing the problem, it should be recreated in reverse. That is patently dumb.


In some ways, it unfortunately is.


I guess black people are also responsible for racism, women are responsible for sexism, yada yada. That line of argument doesn't end well.



For every x amount of normal Jews that shouldn't be hated, you'll have at least one Yaakov that gears everyone up for the hate train. It's easy to hate people like Yaakov and it's even easier to hate them because he is a Jew, but correlation isn't causation. Someone like Yaakov would look down on other people, regardless of whether he was born a Jew or not. It's just his vile personality.

There is no group in the world that doesn't have some hatred from another group. It's what people do. I happened to hate a country, and I can tell you right now it isn't because it is mostly Jewish.


Cool, good for you. But a lot of people do hate Israel for reasons that are antisemitic in nature. For reference:


http://www.deesillustration.com/artwork.asp?item=682&cat=satire

http://www.deesillustration.com/artwork.asp?item=337&cat=satire

http://www.deesillustration.com/artwork.asp?item=598&cat=satire

http://www.deesillustration.com/artwork.asp?item=326&cat=satire

http://www.deesillustration.com/artwork.asp?item=140&cat=satire

http://www.deesillustration.com/artwork.asp?item=516&cat=satire

http://www.deesillustration.com/artwork.asp?item=696&cat=satire


I really could go on and on. Long story short, there is a lot of overlap between antisemitism and anti-Israeli sentiment. Read the Guardian article I posted. This is not just a few kooks on the internet. I'm not saying that you personally are antisemitic. But you're just plain wrong when you say it's not a factor.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 03:24:39 PM by Lord Wilmore »
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Offline Rushy

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #347 on: August 26, 2014, 03:29:03 PM »
I never said it isn't a factor, but the majority of dislike for Israel is because of what it has done, not what it is.

I guess black people are also responsible for racism, women are responsible for sexism, yada yada. That line of argument doesn't end well

Uhh, yeah. That is actually precisely what I am saying. Except not people, persons. For example, persons like Yaakov are responsible for Jewish stereotypes and hatred. It only takes one to sow hatred for thousands. One bad black person could result in a thousand good black people taking flak.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #348 on: August 26, 2014, 03:53:05 PM »
This is a problem that a lot of debates where equality is a factor at all. One side argues that it has nothing to do with equality, while the other claims that it's got everything to do with it. The truth usually lies somewhere in between, but even when people are able to acknowledge it, the conversation usually gets derailed early on.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #349 on: August 26, 2014, 04:44:34 PM »
Shouldn't the Israeli government be aware that their actions might lead to negative repercussions for Jews elsewhere? Maybe they could refrain from blowing shit up and breaking international law.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #350 on: August 26, 2014, 07:12:50 PM »
Shouldn't the Israeli government be aware that their actions might lead to negative repercussions for Jews elsewhere? Maybe they could refrain from blowing shit up and breaking international law.
That would only make sense if they cared about Jews elsewhere, or anywhere for that matter.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Thork

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #351 on: August 26, 2014, 09:23:48 PM »
Ok, death to the Arabs. I changed my mind. They are worse than the Jews. The Jews only want our money.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

How on earth do we send them all home? This keeps happening.

Ghost of V

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #352 on: August 26, 2014, 09:40:56 PM »
Arabs are like dirty human cockroaches. You can try to stamp them out but they will always return. They are also remarkably tolerant to nukes and radiation. The only way to kill them is with one's bare hands.


You can also leave them to their own devices and they will all end up killing each other, but this could take thousands of years.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 10:02:46 PM by Vauxhall »

Rama Set

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #353 on: August 26, 2014, 10:20:20 PM »
Ok, death to the Arabs. I changed my mind. They are worse than the Jews. The Jews only want our money.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

How on earth do we send them all home? This keeps happening.

Rotherham sounds like hell on Earth

Thork

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #354 on: August 26, 2014, 10:43:20 PM »
Ok, death to the Arabs. I changed my mind. They are worse than the Jews. The Jews only want our money.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

How on earth do we send them all home? This keeps happening.

Rotherham sounds like hell on Earth
All our cities with Asians in them are like that.
Oxford
Derby
Rochdale
Bradford
Leeds
High Wycombe

Of course it would be racist to suggest Arabs are have a significantly high paedophile tendency. ::)

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #355 on: August 26, 2014, 10:51:19 PM »
The news reports say that the perpetrators were mainly of Pakistani heritage, not Arabs.

Thork

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #356 on: August 26, 2014, 10:52:47 PM »
Its all the same place. >:(

Rama Set

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #357 on: August 27, 2014, 12:40:55 AM »
Ok, death to the Arabs. I changed my mind. They are worse than the Jews. The Jews only want our money.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

How on earth do we send them all home? This keeps happening.

Rotherham sounds like hell on Earth
All our cities with Asians in them are like that.
Oxford
Derby
Rochdale
Bradford
Leeds
High Wycombe

Of course it would be racist to suggest Arabs are have a significantly high paedophile tendency. ::)

Correction: it would be racist to suggest this without a greater context and some sort of statistical analysis.

Eddy Baby

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #358 on: August 27, 2014, 03:42:46 AM »
Also why do they soup their cars up so much, it's weird, also I don't care if you can do 120 in a 30.

Yaakov ben Avraham

Re: ISIS and the Middle East
« Reply #359 on: August 27, 2014, 04:05:08 AM »
What it ultimately comes down to is the following: Lord Wilimore has it correct. ISRAEL EXISTS. You can't make it unexist. And Jews have a claim to the land, they can prove continuous presence there, for 4500 years. It isn't a question of whether a God gave them land. Ok. Let's say God doesn't exist. The fact is, persons related to modern Jews by ethnic and religious ties (commonly called Hebrews and Israelites) have resided in that territory of the Levant for 4500 years, at various times ruling over it as an independent state.

Now, you can object to my personality all you want. I don't frankly give a rat's ass. But to undo Israel's existence, or to advocate for same, is simply to make yourself look like a schmuck. And to object to the way Israel fights wars, while not objecting to the way Hamas fights wars, is to be hypocritical at best, and deliberately stupid at worst. It requires a willful amount of unforgivable blindness and stupidity to think that way.

I might expect that out of a high school graduate. But a person who claims to be college educated should understand geopolitics better, and should understand ethics better. Their failure on both counts simply proves them to be a fool.