Max_Almond

Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« on: May 22, 2018, 01:05:20 AM »
For some reason people on both sides of the FE issue rarely talk about this: How many ships have sailed between the continents in the last 500 years?

Just one trivial example: The clipper ships. When there was a premium for the first new crop of tea from China, the clippers took this route:



When steam, the Suez canal, and new tea plantations in India, Ceylon, etc made the the tea clippers obsolete, they started to transport wool from Australia; this time going east around the horn:



If you take the time to study the history of the clippers you'll appreciate that these voyages were matters of great public interest. Routes, exact times, everything about the voyages were and are well known. How did the clippers navigate? How did they make the distances in known times? How could this possibly be consistent with the FE map?

Then you have to start thinking about all of naval history for the last 500 years. How many commercial voyages were there in the 16th century, the 17th century, the 18th century, the 19th century, the 20th century? How many military voyages? How many yachts? Pirates even?

As of January 2016, there were 51,405 ships in the world's merchant fleets.

Here is an interactive map for the year 2012: https://www.shipmap.org/

And here is a real time interactive map: https://www.marinetraffic.com

There are also detailed maps of the world's shipping routes.

There must be a correct map. Otherwise ships would get hopelessly lost.

There must be a correct way to navigate. Otherwise ships would get hopelessly lost.

Only one map can be compatible to the known times, distances, and directions of millions of voyages.

A web of millions of voyages, made by people who were just pragmatically trying to get around, has tested and verified the proper map.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 12:12:37 AM by Max_Almond »

Max_Almond

Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2018, 01:09:19 AM »
The flat earth conversation is dominated by discussions about theory. But theory has to be tested. Which model and which map has passed the test?

FE belief is predicated on the odd idea that the map of the world is unknown and down right mysterious. But people have been traveling between the continents for hundreds of years. It's now a mundane activity.

Point one: There must be a true map. How would ships find their way across thousands of miles of ocean otherwise? Which direction would they set off? What's the distance? Someone somewhere must have a true map.

Point two: The map that sailors have been using is the globe earth map. Let's not get sidetracked into the argument that charts are flat pieces of paper.   We're talking about directions and distances. The directions and distances of the globe earth map have guided sailors for hundreds of years.

Point three: There have been millions of voyages, and the distances and directions always match up to the GE map, and could not match up with any FE map. Any FE map must have different directions and distances and could not compatible with the sphere earth map. The differences are most notable south of the equator. The FE map shows a vastly larger surface south of the equator compared to the GE map. The GE map has been tested millions of times. Not one of the hundreds of thousands of sailors in history has reported that the GE map doesn't work, or reported the huge distances in the southern hemisphere that would have to be there according to any FE map.

How do you draw a FE map that is consistent with every known sea voyage? Make the continents a different shape and size to "shrink" the oceans? Then how do you make that consistent with all the land trips made inside the continents? Put the continents at different distances from one another to make a voyage between two of them (somewhat) consistent? Then inevitably you must be increasing the distance somewhere else. E.g. Australia, Africa and South America.

Point four: Because we know the globe earth map is correct any theory that seemingly supports a FE must be a mistake. It's as simple as that.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2018, 11:19:41 PM »

If you take the time to study the history of the clippers you'll appreciate that these voyages were matters of great public interest. Routes, exact times, everything about the voyages were and are well known. How did the clippers navigate?




The clippers navigated using stars which exist on both a round earth and a flat earth

How did they make the distances in known times?
Distance and time using the model that you have provided would be considered round earth distance and round earth time because they weaken the flat earth theory.
A round earth second is different than a flat earth second when discussing the travel times oversea.
A round earth mile is different than a flat earth mile when discussing travel times oversea.


How could this possibly be consistent with the FE map?

These round earth distances and round earth travel times are impossible on a flat earth. This is why they must be incorrect or inaccurate and why the real (flat earth) distances and times must be accurate.



There must be a correct way to navigate. Otherwise ships would get hopelessly lost.

The way we navigate, according to the flat earth theory, is that we use navigation systems specifically designed to support round earth distances and times when the earth is really flat.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 11:21:56 PM by iamcpc »

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2018, 11:55:24 PM »

If you take the time to study the history of the clippers you'll appreciate that these voyages were matters of great public interest. Routes, exact times, everything about the voyages were and are well known. How did the clippers navigate?




The clippers navigated using stars which exist on both a round earth and a flat earth

How did they make the distances in known times?
Distance and time using the model that you have provided would be considered round earth distance and round earth time because they weaken the flat earth theory.
A round earth second is different than a flat earth second when discussing the travel times oversea.
A round earth mile is different than a flat earth mile when discussing travel times oversea.


How could this possibly be consistent with the FE map?

These round earth distances and round earth travel times are impossible on a flat earth. This is why they must be incorrect or inaccurate and why the real (flat earth) distances and times must be accurate.



There must be a correct way to navigate. Otherwise ships would get hopelessly lost.

The way we navigate, according to the flat earth theory, is that we use navigation systems specifically designed to support round earth distances and times when the earth is really flat.

The stars in the Southern Hemisphere on the few attempts to describe them i have seen, bear no resemblance to the actual stars and movement i have seen. Sonsidering the clippers were originally navigating a fair portion of their journey in the southern ocean, then they would have lost their way trying to use the FE version of the stars.

Tom is fond of telling people that almanacs are inaccurate, but there is no FE almanac for the southern stars, so it would be impossible to navigate using them.

Also the stars are not used as much as the sun is for navigating. Mostly the stars are used for a morning or afternoon fix at twighlight, using the horizon (with corrections for dip due to height of the observer) to give a fix. There is very few times when there is a clear enough horizon at night to take a fix. And steering by compass is much more reliable than trying to steer by a star. Believe me i have tried it.

As for distances,
Are we to somehow believe that just co incidentally, that the distances, and maps we use for navigation, and that work, are all wrong, but somehow,  by some as yet unexplained phernomenum, that the magically work out right?? Really??? I would prefer to believe that i get magically transported by fairies in my sleep without noticing. It holds the same credence as the coincidence theory.

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Max_Almond

Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2018, 12:08:10 AM »
Has anyone checked out the live interactive tracking map yet? It's pretty sweet.



Notice all the ships in the southern hemisphere? I know people talk a lot about southern hemisphere flights: but the shipping routes are even more ridiculous on a flat earth.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 10:13:19 PM by Max_Almond »

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2018, 12:44:15 AM »
Its amazing isn’t it?

Look at the published distances from a few points there, Cape of good hope (Southern tip of Africa) Cape Horn (southern tip of America) Perth (Western Australia) Recife (north east Brazil) mumbai(India) Lombok straits (Bali) and you have a pretty good cross section of distances in the Southern Hemisphere.

They and plot those distances on a flat earth map and see what happens?

Or use them to make a flat earth map. Sorry it wont work.....
It does however work on a globe. I wonder why??

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2018, 12:46:40 AM »
Has anyone checked out the live interactive tracking map yet? It's pretty sweet.

https://i.imgur.com/qSW1qaA.jpg

Notice all the ships in the southern hemisphere? I know people talk a lot about southern hemisphere flights: but the shipping routes are even more ridiculous on a flat earth.

What "Flat Earth map" are you talking about?

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2018, 12:52:49 AM »
Has anyone checked out the live interactive tracking map yet? It's pretty sweet.

https://i.imgur.com/qSW1qaA.jpg

Notice all the ships in the southern hemisphere? I know people talk a lot about southern hemisphere flights: but the shipping routes are even more ridiculous on a flat earth.

What "Flat Earth map" are you talking about?

Exactly. If you dont have a map, dont bother criticising the one people have spend time creating one that works.

Do your own, and before you ask for money, Again, I am not going to pay you to do it.

Make your own before saying the others dont work.

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2018, 01:27:44 AM »
Has anyone checked out the live interactive tracking map yet? It's pretty sweet.

https://i.imgur.com/qSW1qaA.jpg

Notice all the ships in the southern hemisphere? I know people talk a lot about southern hemisphere flights: but the shipping routes are even more ridiculous on a flat earth.

What "Flat Earth map" are you talking about?

Exactly. If you dont have a map, dont bother criticising the one people have spend time creating one that works.

Do your own, and before you ask for money, Again, I am not going to pay you to do it.

Make your own before saying the others dont work.

The maps we gave out were for visualization purposes. If you're not going to give us data showing conclusively what the layout of the world is, then I am not sure it is possible for you to critique anything.

Why are you leaving it to us to deal with round earth coordinate system assumptions, flight delays, jet streams, lack of a good source for direct (not computed) logs, the fact that planes and ships don't take direct paths for legal and territorial reasons?

If it is your effort to debunk a Flat Earth, then you must assess all data and elements and conclude that a Flat Earth is impossible.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 02:14:56 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2018, 02:47:07 AM »
Has anyone checked out the live interactive tracking map yet? It's pretty sweet.

https://i.imgur.com/qSW1qaA.jpg

Notice all the ships in the southern hemisphere? I know people talk a lot about southern hemisphere flights: but the shipping routes are even more ridiculous on a flat earth.

What "Flat Earth map" are you talking about?

Exactly. If you dont have a map, dont bother criticising the one people have spend time creating one that works.

Do your own, and before you ask for money, Again, I am not going to pay you to do it.

Make your own before saying the others dont work.

The maps we gave out were for visualization purposes. If you're not going to give us data showing conclusively what the layout of the world is, then I am not sure it is possible for you to critique anything.

Why are you leaving it to us to deal with round earth coordinate system assumptions, flight delays, jet streams, lack of a good source for direct (not computed) logs, the fact that planes and ships don't take direct paths for legal and territorial reasons?

If it is your effort to debunk a Flat Earth, then you must assess all data and elements and conclude that a Flat Earth is impossible.

Sorry you got that wrong.

The GE have maps, charts and representations of how the world looks, it is backed up by hundreds of years of observatiuons, experiences, (all very Zetetic) as well as distances, flight times, and a co ordinate system, as well as a method of navigating the globe, all of which ties in.
It is accepted by the vast majority of the world as true, and real scientists as being the case.

The flat earth on the other hand........

If you want people to believe a flat earth you should at least make an effort to show you are realistic, and have some form of data that backs up your ideas, such as evidence of where the continents are, distances between the different places that are regularly travelled, and at least what is on the world, ie 1 Center pole, or 2 poles, and how that works.

Without any of that you are pretty much saying we think this is the shape of the world because someone wrote it in a book 150 years ago..... and he cannot be wrong. And if you want us to show you, give me money.....

So if you are really serious about persuading people you are right, then do so, not just spout off top each other about how you are right, and everyone else is wrong.....

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

Max_Almond

Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2018, 03:26:42 AM »
If it is your [aim] to debunk a Flat Earth, then you must assess all data and elements and conclude that a Flat Earth is impossible.

We have.

Offline edby

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Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2018, 06:45:00 AM »
What "Flat Earth map" are you talking about?
Any flat earth map. The geometry prevents any projection onto a flat surface whatsoever. I showed this a while ago using just six distances.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2018, 06:48:40 PM »

 If you're not going to give us data showing conclusively what the layout of the world is, then I am not sure it is possible for you to critique anything.




700 years of cartography is not enough data to show the layout of the world?



What about Google? Google has literally driven around damn near every road on the planet with these cars that have super fast spinning cameras creating maps. Maps that I have personally found to be VERY accurate in terms of navigation. They have photographic evidence



https://www.google.com/maps

Based on my experience taking dozens of trips over the united states, Hawaii, and a few trips across parts of Europe, South America, and Australia I would say that these maps are pretty accurate. Not only based on personal experience but because they also provide photographic evidence when using the street view.

Millions and millions of interactive photographs taken at ground level from the Google cars that I've personally seen taking pictures is not data showing what the layout of the world is?

Max_Almond

Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2018, 06:49:43 AM »
Has anyone checked out the live interactive tracking map yet? It's pretty sweet.

https://i.imgur.com/qSW1qaA.jpg

Notice all the ships in the southern hemisphere? I know people talk a lot about southern hemisphere flights: but the shipping routes are even more ridiculous on a flat earth.

What "Flat Earth map" are you talking about?

Let's be generous and say that, hypothetically, there are an infinite number of possible flat earth maps, and included in that number is 'the best one'.

Can anyone argue with that?

That's your flat Earth map. And it still won't work.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2018, 12:59:14 PM »
The maps we gave out were for visualization purposes. If you're not going to give us data showing conclusively what the layout of the world is, then I am not sure it is possible for you to critique anything.
You've hit the nail on the head. There have been maps that are essentially correct, though incomplete for at least half a millennium and those maps are projections of a Globe.
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This 1698 map of the known world sure does not look like a map of the flat earth:

Map of the world produced in 1689
by Gerard van Schagen.
Please explain why many early navigators carried terrestrial Globes with then. Look at these old Dutch sailors with their Terrestrial and Celestial Globes:

"The light of navigation", Dutch sailing handbook, 1608, showing compass, hourglass,
sea astrolabe, terrestrial and celestial globes, divider, Jacob's staff and astrolabe.
And
Quote
In 1537, Pedro Nunes published his Tratado da Sphera. In this book he included two original treatises about questions of navigation. For the first time the subject was approached using mathematical tools. This publication gave rise to a new scientific discipline: "theoretical or scientific navigation".
No, these old sailors knew the earth was a Globe, no question about it!
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You flat-earthers are "the new kids on the block" and have to prove your case if you ever hope for wide acceptance.
You are quite free to believe what you like, nobody can expect to change that but no-one else is going to try to make an accurate map for you - they know it is impossible.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Why are you leaving it to us to deal with round earth coordinate system assumptions, flight delays, jet streams, lack of a good source for direct (not computed) logs, the fact that planes and ships don't take direct paths for legal and territorial reasons?
You claim that "planes . . . . don't take direct paths for legal and territorial reasons". There are few cases of that these days and they are usually minor deviations.
I have been on a flight that diverted around Syria (for obvious reasons) and flew over, of all places, Baghdad!

Long distance ocean flights, especially between South America, Australia and South Africa have no such problems.
Even those unimpeded flights cannot be fitted onto either the
Ice-Wall map, because of massive excessive distance and directions, or
Bi-polar map, still excessive distance and grossly incorrect directions.

For the obvious reason that the Globe earth co-ordinate has been used with the only significant variations being the choice of the Prime meridian and
Quote
History
The invention of a geographic coordinate system is generally credited to Eratosthenes of Cyrene, who composed his now-lost Geography at the Library of Alexandria in the 3rd century BC. A century later, Hipparchus of Nicaea improved on this system by determining latitude from stellar measurements rather than solar altitude and determining longitude by timings of lunar eclipses, rather than dead reckoning. In the 1st or 2nd century, Marinus of Tyre compiled an extensive gazetteer and mathematically-plotted world map using coordinates measured east from a prime meridian at the westernmost known land, designated the Fortunate Isles, off the coast of western Africa around the Canary or Cape Verde Islands, and measured north or south of the island of Rhodes off Asia Minor. Ptolemy credited him with the full adoption of longitude and latitude, rather than measuring latitude in terms of the length of the midsummer day.

Ptolemy's 2nd-century Geography used the same prime meridian but measured latitude from the equator instead. After their work was translated into Arabic in the 9th century, Al-Khwārizmī's Book of the Description of the Earth corrected Marinus' and Ptolemy's errors regarding the length of the Mediterranean Sea, causing medieval Arabic cartography to use a prime meridian around 10° east of Ptolemy's line. Mathematical cartography resumed in Europe following Maximus Planudes' recovery of Ptolemy's text a little before 1300; the text was translated into Latin at Florence by Jacobus Angelus around 1407.

See more in: Wilipedia, Geographic coordinate system
There is more in: Wikipedia, Prime meridian

Quote from: Tom Bishop
If it is your effort to debunk a Flat Earth, then you must assess all data and elements and conclude that a Flat Earth is impossible.
If there was a coherent to debunk it would be one thing, but no-one seems to have one.
Rowbotham proposed one with the North Pole in the centre and the sun and moon circling above, but you seem to discard that for a more implausible continental layout and sun path.
But few others seem to follow your lead. In other words, there seem to be as many "flat earths" as there are genuine "flat earthers".

So, what's to debunk? As soon as one "model" is debunked, someone comes out and claims "that is not what we believe" even though it might be in the Wiki and FAQ.

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« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 11:21:15 PM by rabinoz »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2018, 01:29:10 PM »
We have.
Let's be generous and say that, hypothetically, there are an infinite number of possible flat earth maps, and included in that number is 'the best one'.

Can anyone argue with that?

That's your flat Earth map. And it still won't work.
Max, please remember that you are posting in the upper fora. Keep messages along the lines of "NUH UH!!!" to CN and AR. Warned.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

If we are not speculating then we must assume

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Using shipping to verify the Earth's shape
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2018, 01:42:42 PM »

Why are you leaving it to us to deal with round earth coordinate system assumptions, flight delays, jet streams, lack of a good source for direct (not computed) logs, the fact that planes and ships don't take direct paths for legal and territorial reasons?

For shipping the above statement is not really accurate.

UNCLOS allows for the right of innocent passage, which pretty much allows most ships as close as 3 miles to a countries coast, and certainly as close as 12 miles.

The reasons ships dont take direct routes always, is for avoidance of navigational hazards.

However i have shown that the calculated distances between 2 points on the globe earth are verified and measured by ships, therefore the distances provided in published tables (using the same calculation methods as the airline industry) are accurate to within 2%.

Therefore i am confident of the published tables being accurate to that level, and we can use the distances.

Trying to use those distances results in a failure to be able to plot them on a plane earth.

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.