If you take the time to study the history of the clippers you'll appreciate that these voyages were matters of great public interest. Routes, exact times, everything about the voyages were and are well known. How did the clippers navigate?
How did they make the distances in known times?Distance and time using the model that you have provided would be considered round earth distance and round earth time because they weaken the flat earth theory.
How could this possibly be consistent with the FE map?
There must be a correct way to navigate. Otherwise ships would get hopelessly lost.
If you take the time to study the history of the clippers you'll appreciate that these voyages were matters of great public interest. Routes, exact times, everything about the voyages were and are well known. How did the clippers navigate?
The clippers navigated using stars which exist on both a round earth and a flat earthHow did they make the distances in known times?Distance and time using the model that you have provided would be considered round earth distance and round earth time because they weaken the flat earth theory.
A round earth second is different than a flat earth second when discussing the travel times oversea.
A round earth mile is different than a flat earth mile when discussing travel times oversea.How could this possibly be consistent with the FE map?
These round earth distances and round earth travel times are impossible on a flat earth. This is why they must be incorrect or inaccurate and why the real (flat earth) distances and times must be accurate.There must be a correct way to navigate. Otherwise ships would get hopelessly lost.
The way we navigate, according to the flat earth theory, is that we use navigation systems specifically designed to support round earth distances and times when the earth is really flat.
Has anyone checked out the live interactive tracking map (http://"https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:45.5/centery:-27.4/zoom:2") yet? It's pretty sweet.
https://i.imgur.com/qSW1qaA.jpg
Notice all the ships in the southern hemisphere? I know people talk a lot about southern hemisphere flights: but the shipping routes are even more ridiculous on a flat earth.
Has anyone checked out the live interactive tracking map (http://"https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:45.5/centery:-27.4/zoom:2") yet? It's pretty sweet.
https://i.imgur.com/qSW1qaA.jpg
Notice all the ships in the southern hemisphere? I know people talk a lot about southern hemisphere flights: but the shipping routes are even more ridiculous on a flat earth.
What "Flat Earth map" are you talking about?
Has anyone checked out the live interactive tracking map (http://"https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:45.5/centery:-27.4/zoom:2") yet? It's pretty sweet.
https://i.imgur.com/qSW1qaA.jpg
Notice all the ships in the southern hemisphere? I know people talk a lot about southern hemisphere flights: but the shipping routes are even more ridiculous on a flat earth.
What "Flat Earth map" are you talking about?
Exactly. If you dont have a map, dont bother criticising the one people have spend time creating one that works.
Do your own, and before you ask for money, Again, I am not going to pay you to do it.
Make your own before saying the others dont work.
Has anyone checked out the live interactive tracking map (http://"https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:45.5/centery:-27.4/zoom:2") yet? It's pretty sweet.
https://i.imgur.com/qSW1qaA.jpg
Notice all the ships in the southern hemisphere? I know people talk a lot about southern hemisphere flights: but the shipping routes are even more ridiculous on a flat earth.
What "Flat Earth map" are you talking about?
Exactly. If you dont have a map, dont bother criticising the one people have spend time creating one that works.
Do your own, and before you ask for money, Again, I am not going to pay you to do it.
Make your own before saying the others dont work.
The maps we gave out were for visualization purposes. If you're not going to give us data showing conclusively what the layout of the world is, then I am not sure it is possible for you to critique anything.
Why are you leaving it to us to deal with round earth coordinate system assumptions, flight delays, jet streams, lack of a good source for direct (not computed) logs, the fact that planes and ships don't take direct paths for legal and territorial reasons?
If it is your effort to debunk a Flat Earth, then you must assess all data and elements and conclude that a Flat Earth is impossible.
If it is your [aim] to debunk a Flat Earth, then you must assess all data and elements and conclude that a Flat Earth is impossible.
What "Flat Earth map" are you talking about?Any flat earth map. The geometry prevents any projection onto a flat surface whatsoever. I showed this a while ago using just six distances.
If you're not going to give us data showing conclusively what the layout of the world is, then I am not sure it is possible for you to critique anything.
Has anyone checked out the live interactive tracking map (http://"https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:45.5/centery:-27.4/zoom:2") yet? It's pretty sweet.
https://i.imgur.com/qSW1qaA.jpg
Notice all the ships in the southern hemisphere? I know people talk a lot about southern hemisphere flights: but the shipping routes are even more ridiculous on a flat earth.
What "Flat Earth map" are you talking about?
The maps we gave out were for visualization purposes. If you're not going to give us data showing conclusively what the layout of the world is, then I am not sure it is possible for you to critique anything.You've hit the nail on the head. There have been maps that are essentially correct, though incomplete for at least half a millennium and those maps are projections of a Globe.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .You flat-earthers are "the new kids on the block" and have to prove your case if you ever hope for wide acceptance.
This 1698 map of the known world sure does not look like a map of the flat earth:Please explain why many early navigators carried terrestrial Globes with then. Look at these old Dutch sailors with their Terrestrial and Celestial Globes:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/World_Map_1689.JPG/300px-World_Map_1689.JPG)
Map of the world produced in 1689by Gerard van Schagen.And
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Licht_der_Zeevaert%2C_Frontispiz.jpg/653px-Licht_der_Zeevaert%2C_Frontispiz.jpg)
"The light of navigation", Dutch sailing handbook, 1608, showing compass, hourglass,
sea astrolabe, terrestrial and celestial globes, divider, Jacob's staff and astrolabe.QuoteIn 1537, Pedro Nunes published his Tratado da Sphera. In this book he included two original treatises about questions of navigation. For the first time the subject was approached using mathematical tools. This publication gave rise to a new scientific discipline: "theoretical or scientific navigation".No, these old sailors knew the earth was a Globe, no question about it!
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Why are you leaving it to us to deal with round earth coordinate system assumptions, flight delays, jet streams, lack of a good source for direct (not computed) logs, the fact that planes and ships don't take direct paths for legal and territorial reasons?You claim that "planes . . . . don't take direct paths for legal and territorial reasons". There are few cases of that these days and they are usually minor deviations.
HistoryThere is more in: Wikipedia, Prime meridian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_meridian#History)
The invention of a geographic coordinate system is generally credited to Eratosthenes of Cyrene, who composed his now-lost Geography at the Library of Alexandria in the 3rd century BC. A century later, Hipparchus of Nicaea improved on this system by determining latitude from stellar measurements rather than solar altitude and determining longitude by timings of lunar eclipses, rather than dead reckoning. In the 1st or 2nd century, Marinus of Tyre compiled an extensive gazetteer and mathematically-plotted world map using coordinates measured east from a prime meridian at the westernmost known land, designated the Fortunate Isles, off the coast of western Africa around the Canary or Cape Verde Islands, and measured north or south of the island of Rhodes off Asia Minor. Ptolemy credited him with the full adoption of longitude and latitude, rather than measuring latitude in terms of the length of the midsummer day.
Ptolemy's 2nd-century Geography used the same prime meridian but measured latitude from the equator instead. After their work was translated into Arabic in the 9th century, Al-Khwārizmī's Book of the Description of the Earth corrected Marinus' and Ptolemy's errors regarding the length of the Mediterranean Sea, causing medieval Arabic cartography to use a prime meridian around 10° east of Ptolemy's line. Mathematical cartography resumed in Europe following Maximus Planudes' recovery of Ptolemy's text a little before 1300; the text was translated into Latin at Florence by Jacobus Angelus around 1407.
See more in: Wilipedia, Geographic coordinate system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_coordinate_system#History)
If it is your effort to debunk a Flat Earth, then you must assess all data and elements and conclude that a Flat Earth is impossible.If there was a coherent to debunk it would be one thing, but no-one seems to have one.
We have.
Let's be generous and say that, hypothetically, there are an infinite number of possible flat earth maps, and included in that number is 'the best one'.Max, please remember that you are posting in the upper fora. Keep messages along the lines of "NUH UH!!!" to CN and AR. Warned.
Can anyone argue with that?
That's your flat Earth map. And it still won't work.
Why are you leaving it to us to deal with round earth coordinate system assumptions, flight delays, jet streams, lack of a good source for direct (not computed) logs, the fact that planes and ships don't take direct paths for legal and territorial reasons?