In Flat Earth Model, How do Migratory Birds Navigate
« on: May 17, 2021, 02:02:58 AM »
Hey there, I've become obsessed with a certain topic lately and I'm EXTREMELY interested in the opinions of members of this forum.  I originally posted this on reddit and am reposting it here.

A little under half world's bird population migrate long distances every year. Typically, the birds spend half the year up north during the summer and half the year down south during the winter. The whole process is really impressive; reportedly some birds like the Arctic tern fly from the north to south pole every year. Apparently, over short distances and with familiar paths, birds usually use landmarks to navigate. However, on long trips, birds supposedly don't need landmarks and do just fine at night, in the dark, and when it's overcast (IE they don't rely on the sun, moon, or stars).
There's a lot of content online about Migratory bird navigation systems that I don't 100 percent understand. In Youtube videos and articles on Movebank.org (the big migratory animal hotspot), scientists use terms like quantum biology, and internal GPS. I guess the basic gist is that birds have an internal navigation system that allows them to go towards the north and south pole like a compass. The theories make intuitive sense to me but at the same time are super hard to believe.
Basically, I want to know how FE people explain migratory bird's ability to navigate. Am I overthinking this whole thing? Perhaps this topic has come up already. I personally believe the world is round but am super skeptical of NASA and anything related to space.
lol As I mentioned, I've done a lot of research on this topic. There's LOTS of NASA related websites where they talk about how they use satellites to map bird migration routes, anticipate changes, etc. The below link mentions some of NASAs commitment to protect migratory animals, prevent invasive species etc. lol I totally believe migratory birds can routinely navigate thousands of miles (which, BTW, is an amazing thing) but am super skeptical of ANYTHING NASA says. Maybe NASA spends 90 percent of the time taking pictures/videos of migratory birds and spend the rest of the 10 percent faking ridiculous shuttle missions. Seems plausible to me
https://www.nasa.gov/emd/nrm-regulatory-drivers

Re: In Flat Earth Model, How do Migratory Birds Navigate
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2021, 10:40:17 AM »
This applies to fish as well.

youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4Nm1TMalI&t=149s

We do know that we can make birds act wacky under magnetic and electric fields - which leads some to speculate that one or more of those factors are involved in their “internal gps”.  Like most everything else in science, this has no relevance to the shape of the entire world.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 9098
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: In Flat Earth Model, How do Migratory Birds Navigate
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2021, 12:12:07 PM »
My input on this topic is that the mechanics of bird navigation is another example of how science pretends to "know" how something works, but in reality is just another falsity in the end. Science does not know much of anything outside of the hard sciences (due to difficulty of direct experimentation on all elements), including how birds navigate. You were told in school that we knew how birds navigate but, alas, this was a lie.

CornellLab - All About Birds - https://www.allaboutbirds.org/news/the-basics-migration-navigation/

Quote
Homing pigeons have been used extensively as test subjects in order to develop a better understanding of migration and homing abilities. They have exhibited almost unbelievable navigation skills.

In one noted experiment, German scientist Hans Wallraff transported homing pigeons to a very distant location. To ensure that the birds did not receive any external navigational information, they were transferred under stringent conditions. The pigeons were transported in closed, airtight cylinders and provided bottled air. Light was turned on and off at random times and loud white noise was played. The cylinders were enclosed in magnetic coils that provided a changing magnetic field. Finally, the cylinders were mounted on a tilting turntable connected to a computer that varied both the rotation and tilt of the cylinders. After release at the distant and completely unknown area, the birds were able to fly home to their roost, apparently without trouble (other than an initial case of nausea).

The pigeons’ ability to fly home from a totally strange and distant location indicates that somehow the birds have both an internal compass and an internal map. A compass by itself would not be helpful, since the bird would not know if it were north, south, east or west of its home. The question of how a bird has a map of a location to which it has never been before (and was transferred to under such isolated conditions in the above test) and the sense of the direction it must take to return home remains a puzzle. Some possible explanations have been proposed, as follows:

Internal Maps

The Nose Knows Theory


How could a bird possibly have a map of places it has never been? One very surprising theory suggests that homing pigeons may use an olfactory map.

Visualize a pigeon in its home loft with the smell of pine trees from one direction and the smell of an onion farm in another. If the bird moves closer to the pine trees, the odor of pine will presumably grow stronger while the odor of onions grows weaker. In theory, a gradient map of odors could be created that would provide some directional information, even if the pigeon were suddenly dropped into a new location. Floriano Papi and others from the University of Pisa initiated this theory and have some evidence that olfactory navigation may extend to a distance of 310 miles. This theory remains controversial.

Magnetic Map Theory

A second theory suggests that birds use the earth’s magnetic field to obtain at least a partial map of its position. The earth’s magnetic field becomes stronger as you travel away from the equator and toward the poles. In theory, a bird might be able to estimate its latitude based on the strength of the magnetic field. While the change in strength is very small from one location to the next, there is some indication that homing pigeons have the sensitivity to detect even tiny changes in the strength of the magnetic field. Even if true, this would provide only a limited indication of the bird’s latitude.

At this time there is no clear evidence that either of these theories is the complete story and the mapping skills of birds remains largely unexplained.

The educators and writers had too much pride to simply admit that bird navigation was "largely unexplained" so they propagated some nonsense based on incomplete science to placate you with. You should be disgusted.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2021, 11:02:25 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: In Flat Earth Model, How do Migratory Birds Navigate
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2021, 07:52:03 PM »
Thanks for responding.  As I mentioned before, I find this subject matter very interesting; all the theories intuitively make sense but are so HARD for me to believe.  I think the general consensus here is that scientists can't 100 percent explain the phenomenon anyway and FE people don't think the shape of the earth would effect the migration.   Is that correct?  I was kind of hoping a flat-earth model could explain birds ability better.  It looks like nobody's going to be able to explain this shit for a long time and will remain a mystery.

One more thing, NASA, SPACEFORCE, and various other country air forces say that they have used satellites to map bird migration routes, protect habitats, prevent invasive species, etc.  I've heard that man FE people are very suspicious of satellites in general.  Do you think NASA is lying here.  Are satellites able to track quickly moving small objects like birds over long distances?  Again, I'm seriously curious about this topic and am VERY interested what the community thinks. 

Re: In Flat Earth Model, How do Migratory Birds Navigate
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2021, 01:42:22 AM »
Mr. Bishop, migratory birds navigation has already mostly been explained. Your chosen article is a branch off from the topic, and far more interesting.

Your article focuses on homing pigeon navigation in their ability to fly home after long travel periods of great sensory deprivation. Scientists may have an incomplete understanding of how homing pigeons achieve this, but the nose knows theory and magnetic map theory are far from nonsensical. Scientists have confirmed the presence of magnetite in homing pigeon beaks which may act as a tiny gps unit for the pigeon, giving it information about its position relative to earth's poles.

There are places around the world with magnetic anomalies that repeatedly confuse the direction of homing pigeons, offering proof they rely on magnetic navigation to a degree. Infrasound has also been suggested as used by homing pigeons.

I should be disgusted if no theory were offered up by science to explain homing pigeon ability. From your flat earth studies, do you have a more complete explanation, Mr. Bishop?

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 9098
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: In Flat Earth Model, How do Migratory Birds Navigate
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2021, 02:17:04 AM »
Mr. Bishop, migratory birds navigation has already mostly been explained. Your chosen article is a branch off from the topic, and far more interesting.

Your article focuses on homing pigeon navigation in their ability to fly home after long travel periods of great sensory deprivation. Scientists may have an incomplete understanding of how homing pigeons achieve this, but the nose knows theory and magnetic map theory are far from nonsensical. Scientists have confirmed the presence of magnetite in homing pigeon beaks which may act as a tiny gps unit for the pigeon, giving it information about its position relative to earth's poles.

There are places around the world with magnetic anomalies that repeatedly confuse the direction of homing pigeons, offering proof they rely on magnetic navigation to a degree. Infrasound has also been suggested as used by homing pigeons.

I should be disgusted if no theory were offered up by science to explain homing pigeon ability. From your flat earth studies, do you have a more complete explanation, Mr. Bishop?

As the article states, magnetism alone isn't enough for the precise navigation performed. In migration birds need to know where to migrate and how to migrate back home.

https://www.kaytee.com/learn-care/wild-bird/10-facts-about-migrating-birds

Quote
4. Migrating birds know where to go

Instinctively, migrating birds know where to migrate and how to navigate back home. They use the stars, the sun, and earth’s magnetism to help them find their way. They also almost always return home to where they were born. Because of this, you could be right if you think you see the same bird each year in your yard.

https://abcbirds.org/blog/five-fantastic-bird-migration-facts/

Quote
Migratory birds can remember and return to the exact location where they were born.

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Bird_migration

Quote
Migrations typically occur along established routes called "flyways." The migrating species often return to the area of their birth to breed.

https://indianapublicmedia.org/amomentofscience/birds-migrate-reach-destination-map.php

Quote
Birds all over the world are completing their migratory journeys. Sometimes their journeys are as long as 22,000 miles!

How Do They Do That?!

One bird in particular, the Arctic Tern, is able to migrate back to where it was born even if it has been separated from its parents.

Many parents leave the nest before young birds are able to fly. Yet, even without parental guidance, the young birds are able to travel home. Birds all over the world are completing their migratory journeys. Sometimes their journeys are as long as 22,000 miles!

When they are alone, they travel in darkness and may even create landmarks when flying over water.

Another theory is that the birds are somehow able to access the earth's magnetic north/south pole lines. The young birds use the sun and these lines to safely guide themselves. However, scientists have not been able to prove that the birds use landmarks, magnetic lines, or some other guidance system.

The birds return to where they were born. Yes, this does need to be explained in order to be able to claim to know how birds migrate.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 02:44:57 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline scomato

  • *
  • Posts: 112
    • View Profile
Re: In Flat Earth Model, How do Migratory Birds Navigate
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2021, 04:48:36 AM »
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature13290

This is some fascinating research that proves in an elegant way that birds use electomagnetism to orient themselves in the direction they are supposed to migrate.

These birds kept in an urban lab would just bounce around in random directions, confused, but when taken to the countryside, the birds would know which way to orient themselves. They hypothesized that the electromagnetic 'noise' permeating the urban lab was responsible for disrupting the birds' ability to orient themselves in the direction of migration.

Fun fact, a compass will still work inside a Faraday cage. So, they covered the urban birds' cages with a Faraday cage to block any outside electromagnetic interference and lo and behold, the birds' ability to orient in the direction of migration was returned. Even though the exact bio-magnetic mechanisms are not fully understood, the experiment proves that birds' navigational abilities are due to their ability to sense electromagnetism.




Re: In Flat Earth Model, How do Migratory Birds Navigate
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2021, 05:20:58 AM »
Mr Bishop, are you not familiar with the work of Melissa Mayntz? Mrs Mayntz has written a 2020 article titled, "Bird Migration - How it works, How do birds migrate correctly?"

You seem to have missed this article in your long list of book references? To paraphrase, she asserts scientific research has been completed on a number of migratory birds and several techniques for birds navigation have been discovered. These include, magnetic sensing, geographic mapping, star and sun orientation, and learned routes.

Therefore, scientists as well as teachers are well within their rights to claim they know how birds migrate, along with the who, what, where, and when. Electromagnetism as Mr Scomato says, is a powerful navigational tool used by birds, but not the exclusive tool.

But, why only concentrate on birds? There is considerable documentation that cats and dogs when taken away from their homes, have been known to travel hundreds and sometimes  thousands of kilometres to return to their home.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 9098
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: In Flat Earth Model, How do Migratory Birds Navigate
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2021, 11:53:55 PM »
No, actually those are just hypotheses. What experiment demonstrated that birds are studying the positions of stars while in flight?

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature13290

This is some fascinating research that proves in an elegant way that birds use electomagnetism to orient themselves in the direction they are supposed to migrate.

These birds kept in an urban lab would just bounce around in random directions, confused, but when taken to the countryside, the birds would know which way to orient themselves. They hypothesized that the electromagnetic 'noise' permeating the urban lab was responsible for disrupting the birds' ability to orient themselves in the direction of migration.

If a human was disoriented when you filled his brain with electromagnetic noise and disrupted his brain activity it obviously could be unrelated related to how humans navigate on a higher level. Correlation does not equal causation. There is a lot more to prove there.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 12:05:19 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: In Flat Earth Model, How do Migratory Birds Navigate
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2021, 01:44:20 AM »
No, actually those are just hypotheses. What experiment demonstrated that birds are studying the positions of stars while in flight?

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature13290

This is some fascinating research that proves in an elegant way that birds use electomagnetism to orient themselves in the direction they are supposed to migrate.

These birds kept in an urban lab would just bounce around in random directions, confused, but when taken to the countryside, the birds would know which way to orient themselves. They hypothesized that the electromagnetic 'noise' permeating the urban lab was responsible for disrupting the birds' ability to orient themselves in the direction of migration.

If a human was disoriented when you filled his brain with electromagnetic noise and disrupted his brain activity it obviously could be unrelated related to how humans navigate on a higher level. Correlation does not equal causation. There is a lot more to prove there.

Ahhhhhh, Mr. Bishop. Moment please. Your humble expert servant is happy to easily answer your query.

Is your internet search function broken? Simple google search reveal in the 1960's, German ornithologists Franz and Eleanour Saver discovered birds navigate the night sky using stars. They collected data from a series of experiments conducted inside an enclosed planetarium. They determined they used stars to migrate, using a genetically coded map of the stars.

A decade later, Cornell scientist Stephen Emlen, experimented with indigo buntings also inside an enclosed planetarium. He discovered they are programmed to orient to the north star, Polaris. They require a rotating sky to fix on Polaris.

Not just hypotheses afterall.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 9098
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: In Flat Earth Model, How do Migratory Birds Navigate
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2021, 02:30:08 AM »
There are some contradictory results to that:

https://www.sandiegocounty.gov/content/dam/sdc/pds/ceqa/Soitec-Documents/Final-EIR-Files/references/rtcref/ch9.0/rtcrefaletters/F1%202014-12-19_Emlen1975.pdf




If birds who haven't seen stars and are not around birds who have migrated/seen stars/done the migration, then those birds can't orient themselves North-South in relation to the stars. If the birds can't do it without this then it might not be genetic inherited knowledge that they naturally do as a survival mechanism. It could be learned tribal effect of limited veracity.


The author concludes, unsurprisingly, that despite all their efforts that they still don't know for sure how birds migrate:

« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 02:50:22 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: In Flat Earth Model, How do Migratory Birds Navigate
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2021, 05:05:26 PM »
Once again Mr Bishop, flat earther not unsurprisingly reach too obvious a conclusion. The eyes see the words in the article, but do not read them.

Observe: Mr. Bishop says, " The author concludes, unsurprisingly, that despite all their efforts, that they still don't know for sure how birds migrate." Not so. Navigation by starlight has been discovered as one of many tools, birds use to migrate. Note my use of the word "birds".

The author is not referring to birds in the final words of the final paragraph, and is instead referring to an individual bird. Observe: Author says, "Although our understanding of the migratory navigation of birds has come a long way since Kramer began the experimental approach some twenty years ago, the total of our knowledge is still not enough to fully explain how an individual bird finds it's way between it's breeding territory and it's wintering grounds."

Birds migrating can be explained, Mr. Bishop. It is the individual bird migrating which still retains unanswered questions according to that author.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 05:10:36 PM by Harry Hoo »

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 9098
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: In Flat Earth Model, How do Migratory Birds Navigate
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2021, 07:48:08 AM »
Actually the author mentions both bird and birds in that last sentence:

"Although our understanding of the migratory navigation of birds has come a long way"

He is clearly indicating that he is talking about the migratory navigation of birds here. "Although our understanding" suggests that we do not fully understand the migratory navigation of birds.

*

Offline J-Man

  • *
  • Posts: 943
    • View Profile
Re: In Flat Earth Model, How do Migratory Birds Navigate
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2021, 10:56:50 PM »
I've dealt with swallows from S. America to West Coast of Cali.  My guess is they basically learn the path South after birth, from a leader paying attention with all their senses. They return the next year with the best navigators leading the colony back to the birthing zone. Rinse and repeat. Shipyards, oceans breezes, factories, fields of flowers etc. all give markers like driving a car home without thinking much, just happens. They aren't stupid, when you knock down their nests, they do try to rebuild but eventually they move on. It took me 3 years to completely eradicate a large colony (couple hundred nests) from returning and never did I see another single bird on our building. Predators and the difficult journey can take out upwards of 1/3 but these suckers are born to live, so their colony is somewhere else in my mind, still making the long haul. I just pissed em off.

Word of caution, oh how cute. Double triple every year. Not so cute, dirty messy. Eggs/babies protected under migratory bird act. Not-endangered.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 11:03:23 PM by J-Man »
What kind of person would devote endless hours posting scientific facts trying to correct the few retards who believe in the FE? I slay shitty little demons.