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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion

« on: May 19, 2022, 03:26:37 PM »

Ah yes, telling people to repress natural urges is surely the way to a healthy society. I expect nothing different from Madam Jewish Space Laser.

You can't seriously be arguing that acting on your natural urges is the best way to a healthy society. Young adults can have a natural urge to steal things from stores, cheat in school, skip classes to hang out with friends, and watch TV entertainment instead of doing schoolwork. People might also have a natural urge to speed and drive recklessly through town to meet an appointment, strike their pets and children when angry, issue threats to get their way, and on and on.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Size of the Sun

« on: May 19, 2022, 01:35:58 AM »

Coincidentally, hydrogen and helium are lighter than air, and the Sun is right above the atmosphere in FE.

The surface of the Moon is also claimed to be made of Helium-3, possibly based on spectroscopy studies.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion

« on: May 19, 2022, 01:30:42 AM »

I don't see why this is so hard to figure out.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Terrible Political Memes

« on: May 16, 2022, 03:42:18 PM »

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion

« on: May 15, 2022, 06:44:22 PM »

And what do bird eggs have to do with humans?

That's a simple one. If we recognize the life of a developing bird egg at any stage of development and are banning their destruction, then by this level of the recognition of life the we should also recognize human life at any stage of development.

You do not have absolute right over your property, and you do not have absolute right over your body. The US is a system of states which democratically enact their own health and education laws. If the people of a state want to tell women that they need to be personally responsible and can't abort babies anymore, then that is simply democracy in action.

So, to recap.
You are 100% in support of a government agency having legal say over a person's own body.

I think you mean the people of each state democratically managing their own health affairs. The government agency isn't an outside entity.

And yes, we have largely decided as a society that you do not have ultimate authority over your body. We ban drinking and driving, for example. You do not have a right to drink whenever you want. Having bodily autonomy does not mean any person gets to undermine the health, rights or autonomy of others.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion

« on: May 15, 2022, 05:58:56 PM »

I always love watching conservatives, who are very pro-personal liberties, defend the government telling people what they can or can't do with their bodies.

When a woman is pregnant it's not just her body though. There is another entity within her. Laws already tell women that they do not have right over their body, banning abortion after xx weeks in most areas. It is incorrect that a woman has absolute right over her body.

It is also considered homicide if someone causes a woman to lose her baby at any stage of gestation in many areas. It is not merely assault.

There are laws banning you from killing bird eggs:

https://goldengateaudubon.org/conservation/make-the-city-safe-for-wildlife/tree-care-and-bird-safety/laws-protecting-birds

FEDERAL MIGRATORY BIRD TREATY ACT:
703. Taking, killing, or possessing migratory birds unlawful.

“…it shall be unlawful at any time, by any means or in any manner, to pursue, hunt, take, capture, kill, attempt to take, capture, or kill, possess, offer for sale, sell, offer to barter, offer to purchase, deliver for shipment, ship, export, import, cause to be shipped, exported, or imported, deliver for transportation, transport or cause to be transported, carry or cause to be carried, or receive for shipment, transportation, carriage, or export, any migratory bird, any part, nest, or eggs of any such bird, or any product, whether or not manufactured, which consists, or is composed in whole or part, of any such bird or any part, nest, or egg thereof…”

...

CALIFORNIA STATE CODE:

3503. It is unlawful to take, possess, or needlessly destroy the nest or eggs of any bird, except as otherwise provided by this code or any regulation made pursuant thereto.

...

Title 14, Chapter 1, Section 251.1. Harassment of Animals

Except as otherwise authorized in these regulations or in the Fish and Wildlife Code, no person shall harass, herd or drive any game or non-game bird or mammal or furbearing mammal. For the purposes of this section, harass is defined as an intentional act which disrupts an animal’s normal behavior patterns, which includes, but is not limited to, breeding, feeding or sheltering. This section does not apply to a landowner or tenant who drives or herds birds or mammals for the purpose of preventing damage to private or public property, including aquaculture and agriculture crops.

...

SAN FRANCISCO COUNTY MUNICIPAL CODE:
Sec 5.08. It is unlawful to disturb birds.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion

« on: May 15, 2022, 05:24:11 PM »

Yes, it's the woman's body and therefore the woman's right to choose, not the man's.

This is an argument that women have absolute right over their body. They do not.

Do women have the right to choose to not have children?

Yes. If they are not ready for children they can choose not to engage in the actions that result in the creation of children. If they are truly adamant about not having children for some reason they can choose to get their tube tied. If they are unsure and do not want to follow that path, and still wish to be sexually active, then they should be aware of the consequences for that decision.

How hard is it to keep your legs shut until you are at a point that you are ready to be responsible for your actions? Plenty of women throughout history have been able to tell men "not until marriage" and not give in until she knew that she and her partner was ready. Plenty of people also go years without sex, as they focus on schooling, a career, and betterment of themselves. It's not impossible to view sex as a luxury that you can have when you are prepared to have it, like alcohol. It's called self control.

Men are universally told that if they didn't want to be held responsible they shouldn't have done it and that their actions have consequences. Women should likewise be held responsible. They should know that actions have consequences. There is no reason to impose a death penalty on a child in the womb out of selfish or petty reasons.

The law recognizes an unborn child enough to consider it homicide if it is killed by anyone other than the mother - it is not just an assault charge. That should apply to the mother as well. Perhaps the consequences of fetal homicide should not be the same as normal homicide, but there should definitely be consequences.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion

« on: May 15, 2022, 03:54:08 PM »

Not everywhere:

"States that allow for late-term abortions with no state-imposed thresholds are Alaska, Colorado, District of Columbia, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, Oregon, and Vermont."
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/what-states-allow-late-term-abortion

That's 8 out of 50, and DC is not a state. Even liberal cesspits like California and New York impose bans on abortion after a certain number of weeks. Most areas have decided that women do not have a right over their bodies.

And if we were to examine the overall issue based on consensus, the national majority consensus is that RvW should remain in place.

That might hold water if the US was founded to combine state health laws into a unified national laws, but it was decided that states would be largely independent entities with its own laws on a state level. The states decide on their own abortion laws, as illustrated by the xx week bans and other abortion laws already in place. The Supreme Court got rid of the errant national precedent from RvW and rightly turned it over to the states to decide for themselves democratically.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion

« on: May 15, 2022, 03:34:01 PM »

Yes, it's the woman's body and therefore the woman's right to choose, not the man's.

This is an argument that women have absolute right over their body. They do not. It is widely illegal in most areas to abort after a certain number of weeks, even in very liberal areas in the US. The woman is forced by the law to carry the baby and is forced to give birth, even if she doesn't want to. They do not have a choice. This shows that women do not have the right to do what they want with their bodies.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion

« on: May 15, 2022, 04:35:48 AM »

It is considered unacceptable for a man to abandon his unborn child upon learning that his partner was pregnant regardless of whether the child is later born or killed by abortion.

Somehow it is acceptable for a woman to abandon responsibility to her unborn child, but it is unacceptable for a man to do it.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion

« on: May 15, 2022, 03:06:42 AM »

... you are now arguing that abortion is only acceptable for medical reasons.

Um, don't think I am...

I asked why a man abandoning his unborn child was considered unacceptable and why a woman aborting her unborn child was considered acceptable. You answered that it was mainly because a woman faced possible medical complications.

Therefore you are arguing that abortion is only acceptable for medical reasons, as that is the main difference between acceptable and unacceptable according to you.

Granted that this makes no sense since you guys do not believe that, but this is only a consequence of having double standards and poor morals on this abortion subject overall.

I don't know what you mean by "social" ramifications. But I'm unclear if there are ramifications if a man abandons an unborn child. But there are certainly ramifications if a man abandons a born child.

What are the ramifications, "social" or otherwise, for abandoning an unborn child?

I am confident that you can figure that one out for yourself. Try telling your family that you abandoned your unborn child after learning that your partner was pregnant.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion

« on: May 14, 2022, 03:22:43 PM »

A woman gets pregnant and aborts her unborn child to "do what was best for herself". This is considered acceptable.

A man learns that his girlfriend is pregnant and immediately abandons her and his unborn child to "do what was best for himself". This is considered unacceptable.

Why?

There are no medical or social consequences for the man. She might have to suffer medical complications, she might be unable to work at some point over the 9 mth pregnancy and thereafter, and a whole host of other downsides that will not affect the man at all.

In simplistic terms, he's not walking away from the same things as she is. He's shirking support and financial issues only, far lesser issues than the mother.

There are social consequences for a man abandoning his unborn child, that is incorrect.

Sure, there is a difference, and a woman may suffer medical complications. But you are now arguing that abortion is only acceptable for medical reasons. Since we know that this is not what you believe, we can see that this is a disingenuous line of reasoning.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion

« on: May 13, 2022, 02:59:57 PM »

A woman gets pregnant and aborts her unborn child to "do what was best for herself". This is considered acceptable.

A man learns that his girlfriend is pregnant and immediately abandons her and his unborn child to "do what was best for himself". This is considered unacceptable.

Why?

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion

« on: May 12, 2022, 12:24:15 PM »

I was almost 16 and did not want my parents to know  ...

"My parents told me I had one option, abortion or get kicked out of the house and go to a shelter in the city.

So your examples are simply examples of parental intolerance.

Give the choice, without abortion available, your second example would have been kicked out on the street. Is that what you want for the young female populace of the USA?

Parental intolerance exists, correct. People pressure and threaten young women into abortions. It was not right that she was threatened with homelessness. She didn't really have the capacity to choose like the pro-choice narrative says she is given.

And you think the site you posted from is neutral?

The site successfully shows many examples of people who regret their abortions, and of many people who communicate feeling trauma. It is a fiction that it needs to be 'balanced out' with the opposite that you assume exists in abundance. You have yet to prove that women are not generally emotionally saddened and that they treat it as something akin to killing a spider or a meaningless 'clump of cells'. The NHS guide posted previously says that feeling sad is a common reaction to having an abortion.

Why are they only approving some? Where are all the positive stories, are you seriously saying those don't exist?

Where did I say that they didn't exist? Did I say that? No. Learn to read.

There are plenty of feminists on Reddit who will give positive abortion testimonials. However, their positive review will usually just say that it was the best situation for them, not that it was just a meaningless event like killing a spider. Even you know that it is not the same as killing a spider, despite your repeated use of "clump of cells".

You then go on to make a ridiculous false equivalence between killing your mother - someone you've had a lifelong emotional connection with - and a clump of cells which you do not

Where did I make that equivalency? I gave the example to show that just because you did something which you thought was the best thing to do in the situation that it doesn't mean that you did not suffer emotionally. The paper was claiming that if you say it was the right choice it means that you didn't suffer emotionally. That claim is wrong.

I don't think anyone is arguing that abortion is something one should take lightly.

Actually, we can all see that you are being hypocritical here since you were attempting to do just that. You were repeatedly attempting to trivialize it by calling it a "clump of cells".

You have no good rebuttals and are running on empty, which is why you are contradicting yourself and are attempting to make up fictitious arguments.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion

« on: May 12, 2022, 07:12:57 AM »

lol the majority of women do not have any regrets about their abortions and generally rarely think about them. https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/01/416421/five-years-after-abortion-nearly-all-women-say-it-was-right-decision-study
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/study-finds-99-of-women-say-they-do-not-regret-having-an-abortion

Those are puff papers to deny the obvious. Look at the manipulative questions they are asking:

“Even if they had difficulty making the decision initially, or if they felt their community would not approve, our research shows that the overwhelming majority of women who obtain abortions continue to believe it was the right decision,” said Corinne Rocca, PhD, MPH, associate professor in the UCSF Department of Obstetrics, Gynecology and Reproductive Sciences, and first author of the study. “This debunks the idea that most women suffer emotionally from having an abortion.”

It is concluded that if they said it was the right decision it means that they did not suffer emotionally. Ridiculous.

Say something crazy happened in your life and your mother came at you with a knife and you had to kill her. You reflect later that it was the right decision for the situation. Does that mean you didn't suffer emotionally? Does it mean that you didn't wish things could be different? If you stated at some later point that killing your mother was the right decision and a 'researcher' concludes from that that you didn't suffer emotionally in an effort to debunk the people claiming that you did suffer emotionally then it is clearly bunk.

The NHS admits in its "information for patients" wellbeing guide on abortions that it is common for women to feel sad about their abortion:

https://sexualhealthsheffield.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Wellbeing-after-an-abortion.pdf

"Feeling relieved not to be pregnant and yet sad at the same time can be a confusing combination, but is common and understandable. Some women will know 'in their head' that having an abortion was the right decision and do not regret it, but at the same time feel sad 'in their heart' about the end of the pregnancy."

The guide says that 'common experiences' a women can feel are guilt, regret, anger, and post-traumatic stress effects from the procedure. It advises women that:

"What we hope is that in the future you will look back on this time and say 'that was difficult but it was the best decision I could make at that time'."

It is acknowledged that the process of having an abortion is not like killing a spider and going on your way. It is a tragedy that must be processed.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Bye Bye Abortion

« on: May 11, 2022, 11:54:38 PM »

Banning abortion will be a benefit to women. Most women aren't baby-hating feminists who think that babies are parasites and who shun the idea of motherhood. They are just normal girls who would have the baby with their boyfriend if the situation was right. They were tricked by society into thinking that abortion was the easy way out, and often suffer a great deal as result of their mistake. Have a look at sites like https://abortiontestimonials.com -

https://abortiontestimonials.com/the-pain-never-goes-away-2

"39 years later I still think about every detail of that day. It never goes away. I was almost 16 and did not want my parents to know and didn’t feel like I had another choice. My boyfriend was supportive of whatever I decided. Even though it was my choice it doesn’t make the pain I feel go away."

Wow, 39 years of torment. Tricked into doing something by people telling her that there was an easy way out.

https://abortiontestimonials.com/i-will-never-be-the-same

"My parents told me I had one option, abortion or get kicked out of the house and go to a shelter in the city. I didnt want to have to move out, never see my boyfriend again and go to a new school and be pregnant. My boyfriends dad and step mom came over Monday night the night after I told my mom and they all told me I have to get an abortion or it’s going to wreck everyones life. My boyfriend supported me and my thought for adoption. But once his dad came to talk to me and my mom he changed his mind and told me I should get one. The next day my mom called the planned parenthood and made an appointment for that coming friday for me to have an abortion. I will never forget having to wake up at 5 am to get there for an 8 am appointment to do something I didn’t want to do but I felt like I ha no choice to do.

...And now I am living with something I didn’t want to do that everyone else pressured me into, for the rest of my life. I regret it and I want my baby back. I should have never listened to them. I had no support though. My family, even my brother didn’t support my adoption idea and neither did My boyfriends parents or my boyfriend! He backed out on me and stopped supporting me. I felt like the whole world was against me."

In an ideal world those people who pressured her would be in jail.

That site has one sad story after the next, from people who were pressured into it, or who thought that abortion was the easy way out but forgot that they had a conscience.

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Terrible Political Memes

« on: May 11, 2022, 07:01:42 PM »

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: President Joe Biden

« on: May 11, 2022, 12:56:32 PM »

Biden's speeches can be very odd.

It's hilarious, and a bit depressing, how easy it is for FOX to tell you what to think.

So you have no defense at all about Biden whispering into the microphone during speeches?

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: President Joe Biden

« on: May 11, 2022, 12:47:07 PM »

You forgot that a linguist analyzed that speech and concluded that it was natural casual speech.

https://archive.ph/PJcMg

What Trump’s Speech Says About His Mental Fitness
By JOHN MCWHORTER

"As part of the discussion about Donald Trump’s lack of fitness for the presidency, some have argued that his linguistic capacities have worsened, suggesting significant cognitive decline.

...

Casual speech tends towards the repetitious, as we seek to indicate sincerity and make sure our meaning has gotten across. Mr. Trump, because he speaks casually, does a lot of repeating.

...

Real speech tends to be fundamentally subjective rather than objective, and is therefore decorated with what linguists call pragmatic words and constructions, expressing attitude rather than content

...

This passage also has a kind of coherence. Mr. Trump starts out addressing the nuclear deal with Iran, but then interjects some insights about his elevated qualifications for discussing the subject and his resentment of a purportedly biased media that forces him to mention them – and then he does get back to the nuclear subject. Elegant? No, but not demented, either. Facial expression and context, which print obscures, made Mr. Trump’s meaning clear.

...

The difference between the younger man talking in sentences and the older one talking in vocal ejaculations is evidence not of decline but authenticity – he has settled into his normal. Late in life an artless man has learned that he could leave his linguistic fly unzipped and life would go on. It may not be pretty, but it isn't a sign that his pants are going to fall down.

...

John McWhorter is a linguist, an associate professor of English and comparative literature at Columbia, the author of books like “Words on the Move,” and host of Slate’s language podcast “Lexicon Valley.”

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: President Joe Biden

« on: May 11, 2022, 10:21:44 AM »

Covfefe! I remember when Trump mumbled and spoke nonsensically

Yeah, that didn't happen. That was text in a tweet, not a speech.

Biden's speeches can be very odd. On multiple occasions during speeches he just started whispering into the microphone:



Weird.

He did the same creepy whispering in a recent speech a couple of weeks ago.