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Topics - xenotolerance

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Flat Earth Theory / House of Cards
« on: February 14, 2018, 04:34:38 PM »
Thread inspired by this recent post from the good doctor Tommy B:
Astronomy, Geometry, Physics, many more fields; the foundation of which is all built on a house of cards at a fundamental level.

I challenge the author and other Pyrrhonic believers to use this thread to identify specific problems with the foundations of those three fields, astronomy, geometry, and physics, and thereby knock down the house of cards that is mainstream science.

Here's some solid goodness:

Quote from: Metabunk
A classic experiment to demonstrate the curvature of a body of water is to place markers (like flags) a fixed distance above the water in a straight line, and then view them along that line in a telescope. If the water surface is flat then the markers will appear also in a straight line. If the surface of the water is curved (as it is here on Earth) then the markers in the middle will appear higher than the markers at the ends. Here's a highly exaggerated diagram of the effect by Alfred Russel Wallace in 1870:

This is a difficult experiment to do as you need a few miles for the curvature to be apparent. You also need the markers to be quite high above the surface of the water, as temperature differences between the water and the air tend to create significant refraction effects close to the water.

However Youtuber Soundly has found a spot where there's a very long line of markers permanently fixed at constant heights above the water line, clearly demonstrating the curve. It's a line of power transmission towers at Lake Pontchartrain, near New Orleans, Louisiana.

What do you think, fellow free thinking person? Good shit, or bunk shit?

Flat Earth Theory / Flat Earth belief as a buckets problem
« on: November 02, 2017, 12:39:53 AM »
Yo dudes, I was just reading this cool blog over here, and I thought of our hosts.

There’s a story I like, about this little kid who wants to be a writer.  So she writes a story and shows it to her teacher. 

 “You misspelt the word ‘ocean’”, says the teacher. 
 “No I didn’t!”, says the kid. 
 The teacher looks a bit apologetic, but persists:  “‘Ocean’ is spelt with a ‘c’ rather than an ‘sh’; this makes sense, because the ‘e’ after the ‘c’ changes its sound…” 
 “No I didn’t!” interrupts the kid. 
 “Look,” says the teacher, “I get it that it hurts to notice mistakes.  But that which can be destroyed by the truth should be!  You did, in fact, misspell the word ‘ocean’.” 
 “I did not!” says the kid, whereupon she bursts into tears, and runs away and hides in the closet, repeating again and again: “I did not misspell the word!  I can too be a writer!”.
I like to imagine the inside of the kid’s head as containing a single bucket that houses three different variables that are initially all stuck together:

To briefly give several more examples, without diagrams (you might see if you can visualize how a buckets diagram might go in these):

  • Carol is afraid to notice a potential flaw in her startup, lest she lose the ability to try full force on it.
  • Don finds himself reluctant to question his belief in God, lest he be forced to conclude that there's no point to morality.
  • As a child, I was afraid to allow myself to actually consider giving some of my allowance to poor people, even though part of me wanted to do so.  My fear I was that if I allowed the "maybe you should give away your money, because maybe everyone matters evenly and you should be consequentialist" theory to fully boot up in my head, I would end up having to give away *all* my money, which seemed bad.
  • Eleanore believes there is no important existential risk, and is reluctant to think through whether that might not be true, in case it ends up hijacking her whole life.
  • Fred does not want to notice how much smarter he is than most of his classmates, lest he stop respecting them and treating them well.
  • Gina has mixed feelings about pursuing money -- she mostly avoids it -- because she wants to remain a "caring person", and she has a feeling that becoming strategic about money would somehow involve giving up on that.

It seems to me that in each of these cases, the person has an arguably worthwhile goal that they might somehow lose track of (or might accidentally lose the ability to act on) if they think some *other* matter through -- arguably because of a deficiency of mental "buckets".

One example related to flat Earth belief:

  • The Earth is flat
  • My science teachers couldn't explain how gravity works

If these both point to one bucket, flipped to Yes, it becomes impossible to change item 1 by itself if this person's teacher really did say some boneheaded things about gravity. If there is a longer list of points that includes, say, Rowbotham's ideas on perspective, electromagnetic acceleration, and the space travel conspiracy, and these are all in one bucket, there can be no adjustment of any of the related points.

This can be seen in the topic overlaps in many of the ongoing threads on this site: Proving A' would mean B, but it must be !B because !C, and I know !C because !D. Heated arguments ensue about each topic. Meanwhile, the thread's original topic A is left unaddressed.

With the buckets model in mind:

Is it possible to isolate the sub-topics involved in arguing the shape of the Earth?

Is there a most important topic that could settle the question, if sufficiently answered?

Does flat Earth belief correlate with bucket shortage?

Flat Earth Theory / Homemade footage of curvature of the earth
« on: September 13, 2017, 09:11:52 PM »
+ Not exactly homemade, but not a space agency
+ ~118,000 feet
+ Mute this one
+ 114,758 feet

There are many more recordings using GoPros with their default fisheye lens which distort curves.

The kneejerk response from flat earth proponents will be to attempt to discredit the videos that show curvature of the earth, by accusations of fakery, lens issues, or other more creative issues. Ignore these, and consider what a flat earth model should actually predict:

1) The sun should get less intense, as a spotlight does when you are not directly in the beam
2) The sun's apparent altitude should change according to the model's proposed height of the sun
3) The moon should be visible
4) In models that propose an infinite plane, there should be no visible edge at all
5) There should be no visible curvature - or more to the point, the horizon should rise

These predictions are not substantiated in experiment. Or, in other words,

The earth is not flat.

Flat Earth Community / Flat earth is not a viable model
« on: September 12, 2017, 01:09:35 AM »
A few points, in part just summarizing 3DGeek's threads:

1) The religious basis for flat earth is not well supported in the Bible:

2) There does not exist a testable map or model of a flat earth that is consistent with observation
a - examples include hurricanes, clouds being lit from underneath during sunrise and sunset, mountains being lit from the side, distances between cities requiring a curved surface, and other observations that are impossible on a flat earth
b - without a working model of flat earth, making experimental predictions is impossible

3) There is overwhelming photographic and experimental evidence of the earth's curvature
a - not just NASA's photo collections ( ...
b - but all the high-altitude photos that show a horizon distance consistent with a spherical earth (, and ...
c -

4) The Zetetic method leads to a conclusion of a round earth
a - keeping an open mind, gather observations to a form a conclusion; the above constitutes sufficient observation to conclude the earth is round
b - flat earth requires immense unsupported assumptions, including folded space time or universal acceleration or faulty laws of perspective, and relying on unobserved or even unobservable phenomena is incompatible with Zetetics


All that said, while I'm happy to discuss with whoever wants to chime in, I am not here to try and change anyone's mind, but to provide good information to anyone who wanders to this forum not knowing for sure which model is more accurate.

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