Offline Flatout

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2017, 04:29:11 AM »
Tom, no model is necessary.  I took a tennis ball and help up right next to the view of the moon.  The phase on the tennis ball was identical to the phase on the moon.

Nobody ever said the sun appeared lower.  That was an invention of your own mind. 

Making the sun lower doesn't solve the problem of angles that appear to be non-congruent.  How is that explanation coherent in your mind?

Did you read this explanation or did you just not understand it?
http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2011/06/todd-lockwood-curvilinear-perspective.html?m=1

Lastly, you've got a few days  to get a piece of string so you line it up and see for yourself.  The string really does bisect the moon phase.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2017, 05:26:39 AM »
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Tom, no model is necessary.

Yes, a model is unnecessary -- because this effect is, quite obviously, impossible to model. The thought of attempting such a thing should not ever enter the mind of anyone with basic spacial reasoning abilities beyond childhood.

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I took a tennis ball and help up right next to the view of the moon.  The phase on the tennis ball was identical to the phase on the moon.

We all have cameras in our pockets now. Why didn't you take a picture?

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Nobody ever said the sun appeared lower.  That was an invention of your own mind.

In the video in the OP the author illustrated that the sun appears lower than where the moon thinks it is. This thread has been proposing  effects to explain why this is. 

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Making the sun lower doesn't solve the problem of angles that appear to be non-congruent.  How is that explanation coherent in your mind?

A mechanism which is bending the light or placing the sun lower than it actually is through other means would present non-congruent angles. The video in the OP seems to verify that there is such a mechanism in operation.

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Did you read this explanation or did you just not understand it?
http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2011/06/todd-lockwood-curvilinear-perspective.html?m=1

This man is claiming that there is an invisible pane of curved glass surrounding the earth and that the moon and sun are painted on that glass. This does not appear to fit the Round Earth model, so we must toss it.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 05:47:36 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Flatout

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2017, 05:51:28 AM »
Tom, the angles appearing to not line up is an illusion.  Get a piece a string lined up.  Once you align the string your brain will interpreted things as they are.

Don't the angles have to appear to line up regardless of a distant sun or a near sun?  If they don't isn't there some explanation needed either way?

You are a zetetist right?  I've got to take pictures now for you too? So the whole time the discussion was happening the moon was up during the day and you didn't look at it for yourself?

The picture is actually difficult to capture.  The camera wants to focus on the ball and blur out the moon. I tried many different balls to try and get the shot.  None turned out very well.  I've designed airplanes for a living but never could take very good photos.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 06:10:52 AM by Flatout »

Offline Flatout

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2017, 05:57:15 AM »
This is the best I could get.  The moon is the fuzzy white spot to the right of the ball. The shot is useless which is why I never posted it.  I think I'll put a ball up on a long stick next time.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 06:11:49 AM by Flatout »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #64 on: April 10, 2017, 06:11:11 AM »
If you say that is the moon's phase I will take your word for it. We must now explain why the angle of the rays which are entering the earth's atmosphere do not match up with the apparent position of the sun in the sky.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 06:18:58 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2017, 06:17:38 AM »


If you say that't the moon's phase I will take your word for it. We must now explain why the angle of the rays which are entering the earth's atmosphere do not match up with the apparent position of the sun in the sky.

But they do, Tom, you're being offset by an effect that leaves you the same illusion as crepuscular rays does.
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Offline Flatout

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2017, 06:23:28 AM »
In reality they do, Tom.  The light from the sun lit the ball in the same manner it lit the moon.  All the curvlinear perspective stuff that you dismissed is how a brain interpretes wide fields.  This is why the the sky is called  a celestial sphere.   It appears to be one. The only things that our brain interpretes as straight are the ones that we directly look at.  When you hold up the string the brain has a reference to interpreted the wide field and the coherent angles can be recognized.     

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2017, 07:14:00 AM »
What nonsense. The celestial bodies are not painted on a curved sphere of glass surrounding the earth.

The person in the video in the OP made a straight line path away from the moon. It did not lead to the sun.

Since you have a 3D modeling program available, perhaps you can put an arrow in the sky pointing at a ball and show us how we can look at it in a way that the arrow does not point at the ball.

Offline Flatout

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #68 on: April 10, 2017, 07:34:06 AM »
Buy some string, Tom.  Starting on the 12th sun will be visible in the western horizon in the morning.  Best to wait until the 16th so you don't have to buy such a long piece.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #69 on: April 10, 2017, 07:54:13 AM »

You're an idiot Tom, I don't think you even understand what the guy in the video was on about.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

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Offline juner

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #70 on: April 10, 2017, 12:23:22 PM »

You're an idiot Tom, I don't think you even understand what the guy in the video was on about.

Please refrain from personal attacks in the upper fora. Warned.

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #71 on: April 10, 2017, 12:42:56 PM »


What nonsense. The celestial bodies are not painted on a curved sphere of glass surrounding the earth.

Who said that? You make up stuff as you go, or refuse to actually try and understand what's being said in our replies, and they are really straight forward answers, Tom.

Just get a string and try for yourself, damnit!
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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #72 on: April 10, 2017, 02:07:31 PM »
1. Tom asks that people perform the experiment.

2. People perform the experiment and confirm that all is working as it should be.

3. Tom, without checking for himself, denies that this is possible based on his common sense.

Good talk.

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #73 on: April 10, 2017, 02:53:18 PM »
I am going to take one more stab at this by first presenting the problem as it appears from a flat earth perspective. Please excuse my poor graphics skills, and also I have yet to figure out how to post images inside the message, so both images will appear at the bottom of this message. Click on the thumbnails to make the images larger.

The first image shows the dilemma from a flat earth perspective. The star is the person standing on earth. The moon is overhead and lit from the side. And the two circles on the right side of the rectangle represent the two apparent positions of the sun. The upper circle is where the light striking the moon suggests that the sun would be located. The lower circle roughly suggests where the person on earth sees the sun in the sky. The dilemma is that since there is only one sun, either the moon's illuminated surface is apparently incorrect, or the person on earth's perspective of where the sun is, is incorrect. The flat earth theory thus requires an explanation for this dilemma that involves something like the light being bent by the atmosphere, or perspective changing the location of the sun for the person on earth, but not for the moon's illumination since the sun is supposedly actually located at the upper position in the diagram.

In order for light bending refraction or perspective to make the sun appear lower than it actually is supposed to be in the flat earth model, these effects must be very extreme as there is a large difference between the sun's location as suggested by the illumination of the moon and as suggested by what the person on earth is seeing. If you draw a line between the person on earth and the upper location of the sun and calculate the degrees of the resulting angle, then the sun is appearing several degrees lower in the sky than where it supposedly actually is.

In the round earth model, the situation is suggested to be more like the lower drawing which is not drawn to scale, but will have to do given the limits on image size where you can still see the separate lines of the rectangle. If it was drawn to scale the upper and lower sides of the rectangle would be 400 times as long as the right and left sides. And in order for the sun which is now 400 times as far away from the observer on earth to appear the same size in the sky, it would need to larger as well as depicted in the second diagram. But once you elongate the rectangle connecting the four points in the diagram (observer, moon, upper position and lower positions of the sun), then the observed differences between the sun in the lower position and the sun in the upper position are very slight, probably an angle of much less than one degree from the observer on earth's perspective. The difference in the angle between a line connecting the moon and the sun in the upper position and a line connecting the moon and the sun in the lower position is also much less than one degree. So the difference in how the moon is illuminated would also be so slight as to be imperceptible by the naked eye.

Now obviously, there is only one sun, but the observations are almost identical whether you place the sun in the upper corner or in the lower corner of the rectangle that is 400 times longer than the rectangle in the first diagram, so the video would appear just as it was recorded when using this round earth model, but whether the sun is in the upper corner or the lower corner would be a moot point as the moon would be illuminated from fundamentally the same direction and so the moon would look fundamentally the same to the observer on earth, and the sun would appear in the same position in the sky within a fraction of one degree. And yes, for this model to work, the sun would also be about 4 times larger than the size of the right side of the now 400 times longer rectangle, but because it is so far away, the sun would still appear the same size as the moon. But putting the center point of the much larger sun at either the lower corner or the upper corner of the rectangle would not change the appearance of its location in the sky enough for the naked eye to be able to discriminate that ever so slight change in the angle from horizontal to a tiny fraction of a degree higher than horizontal.

If you step back for a moment, this is the fundamental issue with all depictions of the sun's location in the flat earth model. How is it possible for a sun up in the sky above the earth to appear as if it has set below the surface of the earth? Again, with a flat earth model, you need to have some dramatic light bending or actually impossible perspective effects to make the sun not only appear below the "horizon", but you also need for those effects to be so extreme that during the darkest periods of night all of the light from the sun is refracted away leaving us in the dark. Or the perspective of the sun's movement away must somehow also prevent all light from the sun which is still above the earth from reaching someone on the surface of the earth. It is impossible for perspective to swallow up all of the light, no matter how small the sun would end up appearing, especially at the scale of distance proposed in the flat earth model. The north star is supposedly much further away and yet it does not disappear due to perspective in the flat earth model.

The same dilemma occurs when the sun appears below the clouds as discussed on this thread: http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6074.new;topicseen#new
In the flat earth model, the light from the sun which is much higher up in the sky than the clouds has to be bent so that it strikes the clouds from underneath, or so that the shadow cast by Mount Rainier travels upward instead of downward.

The round earth solution to all of these dilemmas is simply explained in the lower diagram as the sun's rays do not need to bend to display the observed effects.

Here are the diagrams. Click on the images to see them enlarged, and note that the lower image appears as a simple line until you enlarge it, so you have to click right on the line itself.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 07:43:58 PM by Nirmala »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #74 on: April 10, 2017, 02:53:40 PM »
Buy some string, Tom.  Starting on the 12th sun will be visible in the western horizon in the morning.  Best to wait until the 16th so you don't have to buy such a long piece.

Why should I buy a string rather than a ruler? Are you trying to deceive us by using an instrument that can bend when forcefully held between two points?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #75 on: April 10, 2017, 02:57:11 PM »


What nonsense. The celestial bodies are not painted on a curved sphere of glass surrounding the earth.

Who said that? You make up stuff as you go, or refuse to actually try and understand what's being said in our replies, and they are really straight forward answers, Tom.

Just get a string and try for yourself, damnit!

A string?  ???

Why would I use something can bend to demonstrate a straight line? The most appropriate tool would be something that is a straight line and does not bend. The person in the video in the OP clearly shows the straight line path does not lead to the sun. He makes it very clear.

The person in this link we were talking also admits that the straight line path does not lead to the sun. In his case the phase of the moon was pointing upwards and the sun was not even yet above the horizon.

Why don't you just boot up a 3D modeling program and put an arrow pointing at a ball and show us that there can be a position where the arrow is not pointing at the ball. What is so challenging about that?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 03:03:09 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #76 on: April 10, 2017, 03:02:04 PM »
Buy some string, Tom.  Starting on the 12th sun will be visible in the western horizon in the morning.  Best to wait until the 16th so you don't have to buy such a long piece.

Why should I buy a string rather than a ruler? Are you trying to deceive us by using an instrument that can bend when forcefully held between two points?

No problem, just use a long enough stick then. Obviously, the string that people is using is not longer than their reach, so a 6 foot long wooden dowel would work fine.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #77 on: April 10, 2017, 03:13:12 PM »
Can you guys please attempt an explanation for why a 3D modeling program cannot replicate this effect? Every time I bring it up we get embarrassing silence. We just need an arrow (moon) pointing at a ball (sun), and there should be some position of the objects or camera we can look where the arrow is not pointing at the ball.

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2017, 03:30:35 PM »
Can you guys please attempt an explanation for why a 3D modeling program cannot replicate this effect? Every time I bring it up we get embarrassing silence. We just need an arrow (moon) pointing at a ball (sun), and there should be some position of the objects or camera we can look where the arrow is not pointing at the ball.

Have you tried it on a 3d modeling program using both flat earth proposed distances and round earth proposed distances? What results did you get?

You keep asking for an explanation without first showing us the proof that a 3d modeling program cannot replicate the effect.

Offline model 29

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #79 on: April 10, 2017, 04:01:06 PM »
Tom, I should assume you have access to a straight hallway.  Stand in the middle and look toward one end.  Note the direction the upper corner that runs the length of the hallway appears to point and turn your head toward the other end while following that line (remember, this line is physically straight).  From the starting point, does it appear to point directly to the other end up the hallway?