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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2017, 06:05:29 PM »
So here is how it seems to work, it's 7.00 here and I've just come in from doing this. When you look from the moon rising in the east around to the setting sun you invariably swivel, consequently your eyes draw a line parralel to the horizon as the natural line between the two, but it isn't, when you get a piece of string and stretch it, the line is much higher and does indeed bisect the moon as it should, neat, it's an optical illusion, thanks Tom, it's always good to learn something new.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

Offline model 29

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2017, 10:07:27 PM »
One can pretty much do the same thing in a hallway.  Look at the upper corner along the ceiling to your left.  It appears to pointing up towards a spot that should be high above your right.  Look to the right.  That straight line continues to the right apparently downward and much lower.

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2017, 03:02:48 PM »
So here is how it seems to work, it's 7.00 here and I've just come in from doing this. When you look from the moon rising in the east around to the setting sun you invariably swivel, consequently your eyes draw a line parralel to the horizon as the natural line between the two, but it isn't, when you get a piece of string and stretch it, the line is much higher and does indeed bisect the moon as it should, neat, it's an optical illusion, thanks Tom, it's always good to learn something new.

nice, thanks for checking.  i think i was imagining moon/sun configurations that don't happen.  gonna give this a shot myself next time i have a decent view of a daytime moon.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2017, 03:51:00 PM »
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in down to the minute under RET.

Offline Flatout

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2017, 03:56:02 PM »
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in RET down to the minute.
The apparent​ angle difference has nothing to do with sunrise and sunset calculators.  The string is brilliant because it shows that the angles are actually congruent.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2017, 04:05:10 PM »
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in RET down to the minute.
The apparent​ angle difference has nothing to do with sunrise and sunset calculators.  The string is brilliant because it shows that the angles are actually congruent.

You can't claim that there is a perspective effect, or a whatever effect, that is making the sun much lower to the ground than it actually is. This contradicts the claims that we can compute the position of the sun with Round Earth orbital models very easily.

Offline Flatout

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2017, 04:05:49 PM »
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in RET down to the minute.
The apparent​ angle difference has nothing to do with sunrise and sunset calculators.  The string is brilliant because it shows that the angles are actually congruent.

You can't claim that there is a perspective, or whatever, effect that is making the sun much lower to the ground than it actually is. This contradicts the claims that we can compute the position of the sun with Round Earth orbital models very easily.
Perspective isn't making the sun appear lower than it is.  Perspective makes it appear like the angles don't align between the moon and the sun.  Once you put a string between the two you see that the sting bisects each just like it should.  The same thing happens in a long hallway.  The ceiling appears to rise up when looking down each end.  In reality it is straight.  A string works in the hallway too.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 04:08:45 PM by Flatout »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #47 on: April 08, 2017, 04:08:40 PM »
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in RET down to the minute.
The apparent​ angle difference has nothing to do with sunrise and sunset calculators.  The string is brilliant because it shows that the angles are actually congruent.

You can't claim that there is a perspective, or whatever, effect that is making the sun much lower to the ground than it actually is. This contradicts the claims that we can compute the position of the sun with Round Earth orbital models very easily.
Perspective isn't making the sun appear lower than it is.  Perspective makes it appear like the angles don't align.  Once you put a string between the two you see that the sting bisects each just like it should.  The same thing happens in a long hallway.  The ceiling appears to rise up when looking down each end.  I reality it is straight.

You just said that it's a perspective effect with the hallway analogy. Like the sun is just down the hallway!

This actually suggests that the sun is much closer to the earth to be affected so severely by perspective, but I digress:

You cannot claim that the sun is lowered so severely by perspective because we have Round Earth orbital models which can easily and precisely compute the sun's position in the sky. How does that work?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 04:11:55 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Flatout

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #48 on: April 08, 2017, 04:11:03 PM »
Tom, the sun doesn't look lower.  The angle between them just appear to not converge.  Tom, did you try the string like the rest of us?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #49 on: April 08, 2017, 04:38:18 PM »
Tom, the sun doesn't look lower.  The angle between them just appear to not converge.  Tom, did you try the string like the rest of us?

What are you talking about? Does a plane not look lower when it is over head than when it is off in the distance?

That's a perspective effect. You are claiming that the 93 million mile distant sun is lowered due to a perspective effect. The hallway example, the ceiling example, those are perspective effects, something you are attributing this event to.

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2017, 05:34:44 PM »
i sort of see what you're getting at, tom, but you're still not getting the explanation quite right.

you're talking about it as if i'm saying that the sun appears to be in a different location than it really is, but that's not what i'm saying.  i'm saying that the straight line path between the sun and the moon does not appear straight to us.  the moon and the sun are where they appear to be, but the spacial relationship between them is distorted from our vantage point here on earth.

so, for example, the 90 deg intersection of the wall and the ceiling in my room makes a straight line, and it connects two corners; it forms a straight line path between two points.  but this straight line path doesn't appear straight to me.  now, the illusion is not that the corners of my room look lower than they really are.  if i walk toward either corner, i have no trouble finding it.  it is where it appears to be.  but my perspective of the world around me is not perfectly euclidean.  again, sections 3 and 4 of the paper i posted describe all of this in more detail and probably better writing.

in other words, you're making it sound as if the explanation is that these objects appear in different locations than they truly are in euclidean space.  the actual explanation is that the way we see things is not a perfectly euclidean representation of the things we see.
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Offline Flatout

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2017, 06:41:46 PM »
Tom, the sun doesn't look lower.  The angle between them just appear to not converge.  Tom, did you try the string like the rest of us?

What are you talking about? Does a plane not look lower when it is over head than when it is off in the distance?

That's a perspective effect. You are claiming that the 93 million mile distant sun is lowered due to a perspective effect. The hallway example, the ceiling example, those are perspective effects, something you are attributing this event to.
Here are some pictures of my living room.  When I look left (first picture) the ceiling line appears to point up upwards.  When I look right (second picture) the ceiling line appears to point upwards.   In reality neither points upward.  If the moon phase was in the left corner and at a right angle to the to the intersection line it would appear to point upwards from my perspective. In reality it would point directly to the opposite corner.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2017, 06:44:54 PM by Flatout »

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2017, 07:59:11 PM »
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in down to the minute under RET.

Tom, the sun is exactly where it's supposed to be, as is the moon. The optical illusion comes when you try to join them, you can't look at them both at the same time as they are opposite each other, when you do it with just your eyes the angle looks wrong, so you hold the string where the sun is and stretch it over to where the moon is and the angle is right, try it, simple empirical proof.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2017, 08:38:06 PM »
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in down to the minute under RET.

Tom, the sun is exactly where it's supposed to be, as is the moon. The optical illusion comes when you try to join them, you can't look at them both at the same time as they are opposite each other, when you do it with just your eyes the angle looks wrong, so you hold the string where the sun is and stretch it over to where the moon is and the angle is right, try it, simple empirical proof.

The person in the video in the OP already followed the straight line path to where the moon is pointing. It doesn't point towards the sun.

Offline Flatout

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2017, 08:39:26 PM »
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in down to the minute under RET.

Tom, the sun is exactly where it's supposed to be, as is the moon. The optical illusion comes when you try to join them, you can't look at them both at the same time as they are opposite each other, when you do it with just your eyes the angle looks wrong, so you hold the string where the sun is and stretch it over to where the moon is and the angle is right, try it, simple empirical proof.

The person in the video in the OP already followed the straight line path to where the moon is pointing. It doesn't point towards the sun.

Did you try it though?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2017, 09:11:07 PM »
Did you try it though?

I have not. But the straight line path is clearly not pointing towards the sun in that video and there is no reason to think that the video was faked. Gary provided some links showing that other people have seen this as well. I find no reason to call them liars.

Offline Flatout

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2017, 09:16:39 PM »
Did you try it though?

I have not. But the straight line path is clearly not pointing towards the sun in that video and there is no reason to think that the video was faked. Gary provided some links showing that other people have seen this as well. I find no reason to call them liars, unlike some organizations which give us reason to.
No one is saying it's fake.  Several us went outside this week to see it for ourselves.  I'd did the string thing and I held up a ball next to the moon. The phases of the ball and the phase of the moon matched.  I'm just surprised you didn't go out and look at things for yourself.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2017, 10:11:12 PM »
No one is saying it's fake.  Several us went outside this week to see it for ourselves.  I'd did the string thing and I held up a ball next to the moon. The phases of the ball and the phase of the moon matched.  I'm just surprised you didn't go out and look at things for yourself.

If you are not calling him a liar and if you are not denying his observation of the moon phase not lining up with the sun, then how do you explain the event?

Offline Flatout

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2017, 12:02:48 AM »
No one is saying it's fake.  Several us went outside this week to see it for ourselves.  I'd did the string thing and I held up a ball next to the moon. The phases of the ball and the phase of the moon matched.  I'm just surprised you didn't go out and look at things for yourself.

If you are not calling him a liar and if you are not denying his observation of the moon phase not lining up with the sun, then how do you explain the event?
Tom, there have multiple explanations within your own thread here.  Did you not read them?  Secondly, you have never once given an explanation for why it happens on a flat earth.  What is the flat earth explanation for why the angles appear not to align?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2017, 04:17:11 AM »
No one is saying it's fake.  Several us went outside this week to see it for ourselves.  I'd did the string thing and I held up a ball next to the moon. The phases of the ball and the phase of the moon matched.  I'm just surprised you didn't go out and look at things for yourself.

If you are not calling him a liar and if you are not denying his observation of the moon phase not lining up with the sun, then how do you explain the event?
Tom, there have multiple explanations within your own thread here.  Did you not read them?

First I was told that this was an effect of the celestial sphere and the sun and moon were painted on an invisible pane of curved glass, which is pretty ridiculous and not reality. Then I was told that it was a perspective effect which made the sun lower than it actually was, which contradicts our supposed ability to predict the location of the sun with orbital models.

I was told to get a shoe string and trace a line where the phase is pointing and I would reach the sun. The video in the OP provides a direct contradiction to this suggestion.

So where are we at?

Am I to believe that if I booted up Maya 3D or some program like that and put a moon in the sky and the sun shining at it, that we could reproduce this effect? I see that you have access to a 3D modeling program. You should know without even trying that this is impossible.

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Secondly, you have never once given an explanation for why it happens on a flat earth.  What is the flat earth explanation for why the angles appear not to align?

I provide an interpretation here:

I would say that the effect is a confirmation of the long-postulated Flat Earth mechanism which places the sun lower than it actually is over a Flat Earth. There are several mechanisms which have been proposed over the years. Mechanisms have been proposed ranging from an atmospheric effect, to the Electromagnetic Accelerator which bends light rays, to a perspective effect, and further analysis and consideration would need to be conducted to say which effect this observation most strongly supports. The video in the OP shows that the sun actually does appear lower than where the moon thinks it is. If this mechanism did not exist, the sun would at all times be above the surface of the earth and night and day could not exist.