Baltimore riots

rooster · « **Reply #20 on:** April 29, 2015, 02:04:57 PM »

Quote

police aiming more of their patrols at minority communities due to the higher crime rates there

I guess I'm failing to see how this is racist. If patrols are directed at neighborhoods with a higher crime rate than that has little to do with their race. Sure there is a correlation, but it's not direct racism. If white neighborhoods had a higher crime rate than police would focus on those areas, it's as simple as that. Which seems pretty non-discriminatory to me.

Tau · « **Reply #21 on:** April 29, 2015, 03:50:47 PM »

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/04/how-baltimore-riots-began-mondawmin-purge

Not sure how reliable motherjones is, but this is an interesting take on the situation. If it's true, my opinion has changed slightly. I mean, sure, fuck rioters, but I would largely blame the police response for the current situation. Large groups of people are pretty predictable. It takes a real idiot to decide that the best way to control a crowd is to do everything in your power to piss them off.

Rushy · « **Reply #22 on:** April 29, 2015, 04:28:12 PM »

Quote from: Tausami on April 29, 2015, 03:50:47 PM

Not sure how reliable motherjones is, but this is an interesting take on the situation. If it's true, my opinion has changed slightly. I mean, sure, fuck rioters, but I would largely blame the police response for the current situation. Large groups of people are pretty predictable. It takes a real idiot to decide that the best way to control a crowd is to do everything in your power to piss them off.

I'm looting this pharmacy and its the police's fault?

Tau · « **Reply #23 on:** April 29, 2015, 04:38:15 PM »

Quote from: Irushwithscvs on April 29, 2015, 04:28:12 PM

Quote from: Tausami on April 29, 2015, 03:50:47 PM
Not sure how reliable motherjones is, but this is an interesting take on the situation. If it's true, my opinion has changed slightly. I mean, sure, fuck rioters, but I would largely blame the police response for the current situation. Large groups of people are pretty predictable. It takes a real idiot to decide that the best way to control a crowd is to do everything in your power to piss them off.

I'm looting this pharmacy and its the police's fault?

Individuals have freedom of choice and personal responsibility. Massive crowds, not so much. A crowd is both more and less than just the sum of the individuals in it, and the actions the police took pretty much ensured that the crowd would turn into a riot (according to motherjones, which, as I said, I'm not sure about as a source). Any individual has responsibility for the actions they take, but it seems like the police have responsibility for inciting the riot. Completely different type of at-fault. I'm not saying that the rioters shouldn't get pepper-sprayed and locked up, I'm just saying that if the police hadn't flipped the fuck out the might not have been a riot in the first place. Also, not letting people go home is the opposite of crowd control. The point of crowd control is to make the crowd disperse, not make it as big and unruly as possible. I can't fathom what the police were thinking. I guess they were just afraid.

Also, armchair generaling

Lord Dave · « **Reply #24 on:** April 29, 2015, 05:07:52 PM »

http://conservativetribune.com/black-business-sign/

Conservative media have spin material!

As if blacks rioting wasn't enough.

Rushy · « **Reply #25 on:** April 29, 2015, 05:28:15 PM »

Quote from: Tausami on April 29, 2015, 04:38:15 PM

Individuals have freedom of choice and personal responsibility. Massive crowds, not so much. A crowd is both more and less than just the sum of the individuals in it, and the actions the police took pretty much ensured that the crowd would turn into a riot (according to motherjones, which, as I said, I'm not sure about as a source). Any individual has responsibility for the actions they take, but it seems like the police have responsibility for inciting the riot. Completely different type of at-fault. I'm not saying that the rioters shouldn't get pepper-sprayed and locked up, I'm just saying that if the police hadn't flipped the fuck out the might not have been a riot in the first place. Also, not letting people go home is the opposite of crowd control. The point of crowd control is to make the crowd disperse, not make it as big and unruly as possible. I can't fathom what the police were thinking. I guess they were just afraid.

Also, armchair generaling

I'm not falling for this le epic ruse. No one thinks this way.

Tau · « **Reply #26 on:** April 29, 2015, 05:36:18 PM »

Quote from: Irushwithscvs on April 29, 2015, 05:28:15 PM

Quote from: Tausami on April 29, 2015, 04:38:15 PM
Individuals have freedom of choice and personal responsibility. Massive crowds, not so much. A crowd is both more and less than just the sum of the individuals in it, and the actions the police took pretty much ensured that the crowd would turn into a riot (according to motherjones, which, as I said, I'm not sure about as a source). Any individual has responsibility for the actions they take, but it seems like the police have responsibility for inciting the riot. Completely different type of at-fault. I'm not saying that the rioters shouldn't get pepper-sprayed and locked up, I'm just saying that if the police hadn't flipped the fuck out the might not have been a riot in the first place. Also, not letting people go home is the opposite of crowd control. The point of crowd control is to make the crowd disperse, not make it as big and unruly as possible. I can't fathom what the police were thinking. I guess they were just afraid.

Also, armchair generaling

I'm not falling for this le epic ruse. No one thinks this way.

No one thinks what way? Inciting a riot is fucked up. If you incite a riot you have some responsibility for the fact that a riot is happening. How is this a controversial line of thinking?

Rushy · « **Reply #27 on:** April 29, 2015, 05:52:52 PM »

Quote from: Tausami on April 29, 2015, 05:36:18 PM

No one thinks what way? Inciting a riot is fucked up. If you incite a riot you have some responsibility for the fact that a riot is happening. How is this a controversial line of thinking?

You'll do anything to mentally establish this isn't their fault, won't you? "It isn't their fault!

the police made them do it! The police made them mad!"

Haha. Shut the fuck up. I am utterly disgusted by your spouting of this bullshit. It's not their fault because they're in a crowd? They're human beings. They should act like them, not these goddamn animals in the street. I'm not surprised at all the cops in these cities are utter assholes. Look at who they have to police day in and day out for years and years as a career. I wouldn't piss on these people if they were on fire.

You are what is wrong with politics today. You and everyone like you. You're so busy trying to make excuses for them. What kind of people do you think do this in the first place? What kind of people wait for a funeral and then start burning down their city? Rob pharmacies and beauty parlors? They do that because "fuck the police"? No. They do that because "fuck you, I'll get mine." These people care about no one but themselves and all you can seem to do is try to find flaws with the only people who care enough to keep the place from falling apart entirely.

If the police are so goddamn awful why don't you and your buddies become cops? Help make the system better? Oh, man, but wait, cops don't make much money. Cops have a hard job. You wouldn't like that at all. Damn. Guess you better go back to whatever it is the hell you fools do once you get out of that liberal arts circus.

Tau · « **Reply #28 on:** April 29, 2015, 06:11:27 PM »

Some serious strawmanning going on here.

The entirety of what I said here was 'hey, according to this article the Baltimore police made some idiotic decisions that helped start the riot. I guess it's a bit more gray than just rioters ruining everything as usual, although I'm not sure about how reliable this source is'. I never said 'everything is the police's fault and we're all just victims'. That is not a position I have ever had or made. Being a police officer is really fucking hard, and although there are certainly some bad seeds I think that the police is general are not the problem. I think they reacted badly to this situation. If that's the case, then the solution would be for the Baltimore PD to admit that they fucked up and to change their policies (or create policies, if they don't exist) for future incidents. It's not like I'm saying we should lock up all the police.

Rushy · « **Reply #29 on:** April 29, 2015, 06:55:34 PM »

Quote from: Tausami on April 29, 2015, 06:11:27 PM

Some serious strawmanning going on here.

The entirety of what I said here was 'hey, according to this article the Baltimore police made some idiotic decisions that helped start the riot. I guess it's a bit more gray than just rioters ruining everything as usual, although I'm not sure about how reliable this source is'. I never said 'everything is the police's fault and we're all just victims'. That is not a position I have ever had or made. Being a police officer is really fucking hard, and although there are certainly some bad seeds I think that the police is general are not the problem. I think they reacted badly to this situation. If that's the case, then the solution would be for the Baltimore PD to admit that they fucked up and to change their policies (or create policies, if they don't exist) for future incidents. It's not like I'm saying we should lock up all the police.

It is literally a case of rioters ruining everything as usual. These people are dumbasses, and no amount of "cops incited them!" will change that. People who are reacting to cops being assholes aren't actually going to go "well, I'm going to rob the CVS, so take that!"

No one comes to the conclusion that if cops are mean to me I should rob more stores. Just like no one comes to the conclusion that this is anything other than the rioters' faults. Goddammit your stupid le epic ruse worked.

Tau · « **Reply #30 on:** April 29, 2015, 08:16:33 PM »

Quote from: Irushwithscvs on April 29, 2015, 06:55:34 PM

Quote from: Tausami on April 29, 2015, 06:11:27 PM
Some serious strawmanning going on here.

The entirety of what I said here was 'hey, according to this article the Baltimore police made some idiotic decisions that helped start the riot. I guess it's a bit more gray than just rioters ruining everything as usual, although I'm not sure about how reliable this source is'. I never said 'everything is the police's fault and we're all just victims'. That is not a position I have ever had or made. Being a police officer is really fucking hard, and although there are certainly some bad seeds I think that the police is general are not the problem. I think they reacted badly to this situation. If that's the case, then the solution would be for the Baltimore PD to admit that they fucked up and to change their policies (or create policies, if they don't exist) for future incidents. It's not like I'm saying we should lock up all the police.

It is literally a case of rioters ruining everything as usual. These people are dumbasses, and no amount of "cops incited them!" will change that. People who are reacting to cops being assholes aren't actually going to go "well, I'm going to rob the CVS, so take that!"

No one comes to the conclusion that if cops are mean to me I should rob more stores. Just like no one comes to the conclusion that this is anything other than the rioters' faults. Goddammit your stupid le epic ruse worked.

Have you actually read the article? I feel like you're arguing against a position I'm not making.

Have you actually read the article?

Rushy · « **Reply #31 on:** April 29, 2015, 08:18:36 PM »

Quote from: Tausami on April 29, 2015, 08:16:33 PM

Have you actually read the article? I feel like you're arguing against a position I'm not making.

Have you actually read the article?

How is that relevant to what you said? The nonsense you're claiming makes me wonder if you even read that article.

Tau · « **Reply #32 on:** April 29, 2015, 08:29:53 PM »

Alright, let's take this from the top. So, the police received threats that some students were gonna go on a rampage and possibly hurt some people. There were possible gang connections involved. The police responded to that threat by closing down all public transportation and not letting students go home, and just generally being super authoritarian and threatening. They showed up in full riot gear, kicked everyone off the buses, closed the subways, etc. In other words, they intentionally created a massive crowd of pissed-off teenagers, knowing that there was a possibility that some of them were planning to riot.

This means that they a) put kids who wanted nothing to do with the situation at risk by stranding right in the the center of things, and b) unintentionally helped the riot to form by congregating large groups of pissed off people into small areas while wearing full riot gear. I'm making the argument that these actions were dumb as fuck. I'm also saying that, because they made bad decisions that helped to make everything worse, they're partially culpable for all of the chaos. Finally, I'm musing that perhaps this is more of an unfortunate series of idiots being dumb (and to be clear, I include the assholes robbing the CVS etc. under the flag of 'idiots') than the standard 'rioters ruining everything' situation.

Rushy · « **Reply #33 on:** April 29, 2015, 08:36:59 PM »

No amount of police incitement justifies actually starting a riot. The police expected violence and brought riot gear, so these people reacted by becoming violent, thus necessitating the riot gear. That is, if anything, giving the police what you claim they wanted.

I'm not arguing the police are justified. I'm arguing (and have been the entire time) that this is the rioters' faults, because it is. It's funny that you scream strawman at me but it seems this entire offshoot of blaming the police is one huge strawman for this riot. If the people didn't start a riot, guess what, the police would be getting a lot of shit right now for being in riot gear for no reason at all. But guess what? There was a riot! Looks like that was justified afterall, eh?

Unless you claim the police mind controlled these people, I will always blame them for tearing shit up. These aren't dogs in a cage, they're human beings, and should have been rational in a tense situation.

Tau · « **Reply #34 on:** April 29, 2015, 08:52:40 PM »

Quote from: Irushwithscvs on April 29, 2015, 08:36:59 PM

No amount of police incitement justifies actually starting a riot.

I'M NOT DISAGREEING WITH YOU

rooster · « **Reply #35 on:** April 29, 2015, 09:03:12 PM »

I think Tausami is going the route of slight victim blaming. Was it the woman's fault that the man raped her? No. But it would never have happened if she hadn't been drunk in a rough neighborhood and dressed in a tight dress with hooker boots.

Is that what you're saying?

Rushy · « **Reply #36 on:** April 29, 2015, 09:16:58 PM »

Alright, Tausami. I give up. I don't understand what your argument is apparently; since I said the police aren't at fault and you agree with that, I guess there is no problem I have with what you said.

garygreen · « **Reply #37 on:** April 29, 2015, 09:25:59 PM »

Who is ultimately responsible for the crime and violence of the Baltimore riots? The people doing the crime and the violence. I don't think anyone actually disputes this.

What caused the people who rioted to act as they did? They're all just a bunch of assholes. This is where I diverge from people like Irush and PP (and I think it's what Tausami is trying to dispute, but I don't want to speak for Tausami).

Anyone who thinks this is any more complicated than 'violent assholes acted like violent assholes' is an intolerable, brainwashed idiot who can't think for themselves, or who has some bizarre ulterior motive for arguing against a position that they know must be false. This is why I can never take your divergence seriously.

Pete Svarrior · « **Reply #38 on:** April 29, 2015, 09:59:17 PM »

Quote from: garygreen on April 29, 2015, 09:25:59 PM

What caused the people who rioted to act as they did? They're all just a bunch of assholes.

For the record, I don't think they're assholes. I think they're misguided, not malicious.

Tau · « **Reply #39 on:** April 29, 2015, 10:04:59 PM »

Quote from: rooster on April 29, 2015, 09:03:12 PM

I think Tausami is going the route of slight victim blaming. Was it the woman's fault that the man raped her? No. But it would never have happened if she hadn't been drunk in a rough neighborhood and dressed in a tight dress with hooker boots.

Is that what you're saying?

No. I'm saying it's not the driver's fault that a deer ran out into the road and they collided, but that the driver actively swerved into the deer and that if they'd swerved the other way, or just not swerved, things might have turned out differently.

Quote from: garygreen on April 29, 2015, 09:25:59 PM

Who is ultimately responsible for the crime and violence of the Baltimore riots? The people doing the crime and the violence. I don't think anyone actually disputes this.

What caused the people who rioted to act as they did? They're all just a bunch of assholes. This is where I diverge from people like Irush and PP (and I think it's what Tausami is trying to dispute, but I don't want to speak for Tausami).

Anyone who thinks this is any more complicated than 'violent assholes acted like violent assholes' is an intolerable, brainwashed idiot who can't think for themselves, or who has some bizarre ulterior motive for arguing against a position that they know must be false. This is why I can never take your divergence seriously.

I'm not saying they aren't a bunch of assholes. I think that that's not the entirety of their motivation, but I also think that you have to be a bit of a dickhead to start torching businesses. Literally my entire argument is that the police share some culpability for actively encouraging and cultivating the conditions under which a riot can develop instead of doing literally anything to let tensions die down.