21

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 19, 2019, 10:16:51 AM »

proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?

I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.

Are you in Jail? Why can't you watch YouTube? Perhaps a country that prevents it? No wonder we're having such a difficult time communicating. 
a country,yes
You didn't tell us why the hula hoop example doesn't fit the horizon. You simply said a whole bunch of words in various font colors that literally make no sense. Now English may not be your first language and you speak it far better than I could speak what I could imagine to be your first language, but for what it's worth, you are speaking gibberish.
no,not first language.
So you think the earth is flat. Not a globe. You look around at sea and see just a horizontal horizon line in all directions. A horizontal horizon line in all directions means to you, somehow, that you're not standing on a ball shaped earth because the horizontal horizon line around you would have to be a circle. And that just can't be. Why?
Because a circle is a finite size and a closed graph, a finite size and a closed graph means that if the front and back of the horizon are straight lines, they overlap, so that the horizon doesn't appear in both directions at the same time.If the horizon is not straight and has a small curvature there will be a significant curvature on the left and right sides of the horizon.

So this proves that the horizon is not a circle flattened to look like a straight line.Because they don't overlap in a line, and they don't have curvature on either side.
Let me add.The horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time.

Point missing: the earth is massive. You don't see it's curvature from just staring out at the horizon. The number one argument: It looks flat.

But what I think you're describing is earth shape agnostic. On a flat earth the horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time. To use your words. On a globe earth, the horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time. So what's your point?
<<<<<

exactly.If the horizon were a circle, it would appear in only one direction, not two.Because the circle is connected, the two straight segments that are connected with two intersecting points will overlap and become one.So it's impossible to have a horizon in front and behind at the same time.
If it is not a straight line, then a rapidly increasing curvature is observed on the left and right sides.That's the law of ellipses.
This translation software may not fully express what I want to say.

22

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 19, 2019, 10:09:06 AM »

proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?

I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.

Are you in Jail? Why can't you watch YouTube? Perhaps a country that prevents it? No wonder we're having such a difficult time communicating. 

>>>> a country,yes


You didn't tell us why the hula hoop example doesn't fit the horizon. You simply said a whole bunch of words in various font colors that literally make no sense. Now English may not be your first language and you speak it far better than I could speak what I could imagine to be your first language, but for what it's worth, you are speaking gibberish.

>>> no,not first language.

So you think the earth is flat. Not a globe. You look around at sea and see just a horizontal horizon line in all directions. A horizontal horizon line in all directions means to you, somehow, that you're not standing on a ball shaped earth because the horizontal horizon line around you would have to be a circle. And that just can't be. Why?

Because a circle is a finite size and a closed graph, a finite size and a closed graph means that if the front and back of the horizon are straight lines, they overlap, so that the horizon doesn't appear in both directions at the same time.If the horizon is not straight and has a small curvature there will be a significant curvature on the left and right sides of the horizon.

So this proves that the horizon is not a circle flattened to look like a straight line.Because they don't overlap in a line, and they don't have curvature on either side.

Let me add.The horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time.

If you want to insert answers into a quote, you need to use the colours, and possibly other markers such as line breaks to mark them out.

I've corrected it for you above, for clarity.

thank you.

23

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 19, 2019, 09:52:07 AM »

If the sea line is an arc with high in the middle and low on the left and right ends it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.

What you really mean by "sea line"?  The horizon?  If yes, it is not a line.  A line is something that connects two points, and it is straight, if not it will be a "curve".

So, rephrasing your first sentence, "If the sea curve is an arc, with high in the middle and low on the sides, it will not close around, It's a simple fact".... and NO, it can close on the bottom.  An arc can be part of a round circle or ellipsoid closed object.   Why you say it can not close around? as a fact... ?   That is what nobody is understanding.  What you mean by that?  By any chance are you saying it will not "close around horizontally"?  If yes, you need to put more words in the text, so we don't get confused.

Your second sentence makes no sense at all.  "If the sea line(?) is straight and the sea surface is a sphere, the sea line(?) will close in a circle". 

Again, this is a very difficult (for me) to understand what you mean by "sea line".  What you mean by "sea line is straight"?

The sea surface is not a sphere, never is.  A sphere represents a globe, the Earth's oceans do not make a globe, they are over a globe, the patches of land above the water makes it not a spherical water.   Think with me, when you submerge an orange under water, still a spherical orange, even when you remove from water and it still all wet, still a spherical orange.  The water could be covering a spherical orange, spherical planet and ultimate copying its format, but it is not a sphere.

Rethink and rephrase, mostly about the "sea line".

Thank you for your advice. I really didn't express myself clearly enough

24

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 19, 2019, 09:37:05 AM »

proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?

I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.

Are you in Jail? Why can't you watch YouTube? Perhaps a country that prevents it? No wonder we're having such a difficult time communicating. 
a country,yes
You didn't tell us why the hula hoop example doesn't fit the horizon. You simply said a whole bunch of words in various font colors that literally make no sense. Now English may not be your first language and you speak it far better than I could speak what I could imagine to be your first language, but for what it's worth, you are speaking gibberish.
no,not first language.
So you think the earth is flat. Not a globe. You look around at sea and see just a horizontal horizon line in all directions. A horizontal horizon line in all directions means to you, somehow, that you're not standing on a ball shaped earth because the horizontal horizon line around you would have to be a circle. And that just can't be. Why?
Because a circle is a finite size and a closed graph, a finite size and a closed graph means that if the front and back of the horizon are straight lines, they overlap, so that the horizon doesn't appear in both directions at the same time.If the horizon is not straight and has a small curvature there will be a significant curvature on the left and right sides of the horizon.

So this proves that the horizon is not a circle flattened to look like a straight line.Because they don't overlap in a line, and they don't have curvature on either side.
Let me add.The horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time.

25

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 19, 2019, 08:48:36 AM »

proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?

I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.

I want to emphasize this simple fact to you.A flat hula hoop will look straight only if the point of view is completely parallel to it. Otherwise, even the smallest curvature will increase sharply on the left and right sides of the hoop, because it is an ellipse.

26

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 19, 2019, 08:34:53 AM »

I had a whole long explanation all typed out, but it took so long I was timed out and it's gone.
Not typing it all again.
short version: What does a circle look like if you're right in the center of the circle?
Get a hula hoop and hold it at eye level. Seriously, get a hula hoop and hold it at eye level. Now tell me how it can't be a circle because it looks like a straight line.
It's a hula hoop. It's a circle. Held at eye level, it looks like a straight line from any angle.

My online friends, I totally understand what you mean by hula hoops.I'll tell you what's wrong with this example. Take a closer look.
When you're standing on an ocean or a plain, you can see a horizon in front and a horizon behind you, right?
When you put the hula hoop completely out of the way, it looks straight, right?
If you don't flatten it out completely, you can only see arcs instead of straight lines.
So do you get it?A hula hoop is a finite size circle that looks like a straight line when completely flat.one line
But the horizon is in front, back, left, right, it's not a line but an infinite number of lines.
It proves by itself that this situation can only be observed in an infinite plane, not in a finite circle.
A two-dimensional graph of finite size can only be connected and closed when viewed at the same height with it, thus overlapping into a straight line.It's only when you look at a plane of infinite size that you can see straight lines in all directions without closing them.

27

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 19, 2019, 07:28:48 AM »

What I'm saying is that they can't be connected in a circle

Why? Earth is huge, massive, in fact. Now I'm not running in and saying earth is a globe. Just trying to illustrate how massive earth is, why it may be curved, yet look flat:

I have already mentioned that a line with curvature on the same side in the vertical direction cannot go around to form a closed figure.
As I explained in my last reply to you just now, the horizon just looks straight at any Angle, it can't be a circle.

So what else do you need me to explain to you?Can you take arcs that have curvature on the same side of the vertical direction, go around them and connect them?When two straight lines intersect at two points, they're the same line, they don't go in two directions.I'm just saying the simple truth.

28

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 19, 2019, 05:54:40 AM »

Dear proponent,
Let me be extremely clear. I do not understand you. You use certain words incorrectly, but it is clear from your pattern that you don't realize this. In order for us to understand you, please DEFINE THESE WORDS:
"sea line"
"radian"

I THINK "sea line" means horizon. The line between the ocean and the sky. Is that correct?
correct
My best guess is that "radian" means curve. Like when you say, "it's a small radian," you mean "it isn't perfectly straight." Is that right?
right
If I may attempt to rephrase your question based on my best guesses about what you mean... please tell me is this what you are trying to ask?

If I look out over the ocean, the horizon is a perfectly straight line. The horizon is flat and level. The REs tell me that the horizon is slightly curved, but it looks very flat to me. If it WERE curved, that would mean the edges are slightly lower than the middle. If so, then as I turn in a circle, the horizon must dip lower in the back and raise up again as I come all the way around. It doesn't do that.
I will explain this by making a panoramic photo. Look North at the horizon and take a photo. Now turn East 10 degrees and take another. Go all the way around taking photos every 10 degrees. Now print those photos out and try to line them up. If the horizon were truly curved, we could not line those photos up along a straight line - it would have to curve.

How's that? Is that what you're trying to talk about?
What I'm saying is that they can't be connected in a circle

The classic example of this is an orange slice. Imagine an ant standing on an orange. The ant cannot see all the way around the orange. Let's say the ant can see 1 cm in front of him on the orange - because the orange is curved. He can also see 1 cm to the right, 1 cm to the left, and 1 cm behind. Draw a circle on the orange 1 cm in radius (2 cm diameter) with the ant at the center. This line you just drew is the ant's horizon. Now slice the orange right through the line you drew. That slice you just made is everything the ant can see. Look at that shape from different angles to understand exactly what we're talking about.

Is that what we're talking about?
You don't understand what I'm saying, so you're giving the wrong example, where if the ant sees a circle, it will see an arc, and if it doesn't see an arc, it can't be a circle.
Please try to understand the following words.If the horizon is a circle, if it just looks like a straight line, then one cannot see a straight line in front and a straight line in the back, and they are not yet connected to one straight line, because they are a whole, and they intersect.Then the horizon is not a circle, and indeed it can only be a straight line in any direction, proving that the surface of the sea or the ground between the horizons is a plane, not a sphere.

Thank you for your patience. Please read my reply carefully.

29

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 19, 2019, 05:37:44 AM »

If I look out over the ocean, the horizon is a perfectly straight line. The horizon is flat and level. The REs tell me that the horizon is slightly curved, but it looks very flat to me. If it WERE curved, that would mean the edges are slightly lower than the middle.

That is the thing... the distance you can see the horizon on open sea is not long, the curvature exist but you can not see it, because you are in the middle of the very narrow and small angle "dome" of water.  The curvature is not on the horizon in front of you, understand that, the curvature is what makes the horizon, FROM YOU to where you can see.  Imagine a million horizontal concentric circles, you are in the middle of the smaller, and this smaller is a little bit above the others, you can't see the curvature, you see the larger circles disappearing all around you. 

The image below, the ridges from the center to the bottom are the curvature. If you are small (cat) on the top, those ridges will produce a horizon for you, after that horizon you can not see the roof anymore.  May be the horizon coincide with one of the horizontal circles.  The circles you can see have no curvature to the ground, they make just flat horizontal circles around you, and because you are in the center, you see a straight (leveled line) circle.  This is the same reason why you can not see "curvature" of the ocean, because they are much more pronounced on distance from you to away from you, not on horizon.  The reason is that the far horizon over the sea, even if you are on land, is just a piece of such circle all around you when you are on open ocean, same explanation, can't see a curved horizon, only if you are very far and over, making this ball smaller to see the whole at once.

If the Earth was a flat polished sphere, like a billiard ball, any place you go you would see a vast area around you, perfect horizontal circled horizon, not curved horizontally.

Have you ever thought about distant objects looking smaller?Do you know that the horizon in the distance is just a straight line of objects reduced to a point?If you haven't thought about it, then I have told you these things and you don't have to reply to me.

30

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 18, 2019, 01:27:24 PM »

I don't really want to know what the first picture you gave me was about.

Why the feck should I bother with you, then?

If you're going to wilfully ignore what others do to try to interact with you, then why are you here?

Well, I'll just take that as an end. Thank you for coming.

31

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 18, 2019, 01:04:29 PM »

In fact, I didn't look at your drawing, because it didn't help me to express it.

>>> What's the point, then, if you're not going to look at what I draw in order to find common ground?


I just quoted the ellipse in it to express what I wanted to say. I don't know what you mean by the green dot.

It represents where the observer would be in the middle of the ocean, looking out over a spherical cap. The ellipse represents the limit of his vision. Is this what you mean by "the sea line" ?

You can SEE the green dot in the image, can't you?
I can't see the green dots in the first picture you gave me. I'm not color blind.I told you I couldn't see the second one.

I don't really want to know what the first picture you gave me was about.Since I have explained my point of view with my own image, if you want to give advice, please point it out.I'll try to figure it out.

32

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 18, 2019, 12:58:19 PM »

I don't know English. Please forgive me.

OK.
thank you~

I'm trying to explain to you that what you're saying, "the straight line case," is an incorrect example.
Because if the circle is straight in front and back, then the observer has to be at the same vertical height as the circle, so the front and back will merge into one line instead of two. But it's not going to happen.

The observer would never be at this point, since the observation point is outwith the circle.

Yes, so there's nothing wrong with my description.
I'm trying to say that the situation with the sea line actually proves itself that the sea is a plane, because it can only be a plane, and the sea line doesn't appear to be a circle.
This is an interesting way to use this reply~

33

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 18, 2019, 12:47:03 PM »

The observer is at the top, the green dot, and your ellipse is in purple.

Is this what you mean?

In fact, I didn't look at your drawing, because it didn't help me to express it. I just quoted the ellipse in it to express what I wanted to say.I don't know what you mean by the green dot.

34

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 18, 2019, 12:43:00 PM »

Let me ask you this question, if you are really a wise person and not a fool.

Let me ask you this question.

Why are you being so effing rude and obnoxious, when all I'm trying to do is understand what you're talking about?





If you're going to write in English, but it's not your first or native language, then perhaps accept that you might not be expressing yourself very clearly.

I don't know English. Please forgive me. That's the problem.
I'm trying to explain to you that what you're saying, "the straight line case," is an incorrect example.
Because if the circle is straight in front and back, then the observer has to be at the same vertical height as the circle, so the front and back will merge into one line instead of two.But it's not going to happen.

35

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 18, 2019, 12:27:23 PM »

Yes, the observer is perpendicular to the center of the circle.And what I'm expressing is the observer's perspective.

If the observer is IN the circle, this cannot be the observer's perspective. We're looking at the circle/ellipse from the outside, surely?

You're looking at an eclipse because you're depicting a circle when viewed from slightly above the plane of the circle. If it was edge-on, it would be a straight line.

No?

Let me ask you this question, if you are really a wise person and not a fool.Is it possible that the sea line ahead is straight and the sea line behind is straight?Can two lines make a circle?If you say it's just a small radian, I've shown you by drawing that you can see radians on either side of the ellipse.

36

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 18, 2019, 12:15:25 PM »

I'm going to use this ellipse to explain it.Let this ellipse be the sea line that the observer sees from the position on the surface of the sea in the ocean.

So, you're portraying the observer as being in the centre of this ellipse, and you're depicting it from an external viewpoint?

Yes, the observer is perpendicular to the center of the circle.And what I'm expressing is the observer's perspective.

37

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 18, 2019, 12:00:53 PM »

I repeat, if you can understand what I'm saying


>>> Therein lies the problem. Perhaps you could generate some photos or diagrams yourself, to show what you mean?

if you can't understand, please explain where you can't understand.


>>> You said earlier, "look at this graph", but you provided no graph. I don't know what you mean by "sea line". I don't know what you mean by "radians" or "vertical radians".  A diagram might help.

The rest doesn't even fit the theme I'm talking about, so please don't mention it to me.

It has relevance, if only to demonstrate how diagrams and photos would help us understand what you're getting at.

I'm going to use this ellipse to explain it.Let this ellipse be the sea line that the observer sees from the position on the surface of the sea in the ocean.
In the vertical direction up and down, it cannot have radians that are always in the same direction, or it cannot close, and I believe that's not the explanation.
So it's a circle.But if it's a circle, look at the ellipse I've shown. Even the smallest radians can be easily observed at the left and right ends of an arc, because there, they quickly grow larger and the arc closes.
But no such radians are observed in reality, right?
And if this is an ellipse, imagine what happens when the observer goes around in place to look at this line.
Because of the phenomenon of perspective, every component of this distant line has been shrunk, so this line is also much more than 2 PI times the observer's visibility. So this line can't be a circle, right?
I don't think I'm really saying a complicated thing.

38

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 18, 2019, 11:30:52 AM »

I don't know how to use software to express my meaning

Doesn't have to involve software. Print the image on paper, and draw on it with pen or pencil. Then scan and upload.

Like this;

i will try

39

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 18, 2019, 09:58:44 AM »

Please take this image, copy it to an editing program, and draw upon it what you mean by your "sea line", "radian" and "vertical radian". Then repost it here, so we can see what you mean.

Please.

I don't know how to use software to express my meaning, but I think I have explained it clearly.If there's anything in the question that you don't understand, you can make it a separate case, and I'll see if I can explain it.

40

Flat Earth Investigations / Re: I wanted to ask people about this

« on: June 18, 2019, 08:54:54 AM »

Here's how I look at it, with example photos I took myself, and supporting diagram to illustrate the principle.

The Isle of May lighthouse, in the Firth of Forth, Scotland, photographed from onshore, at Pencraig viewpoint, near East Linton.

[/img]

Closeup/crop from this;



My camera height was 100m
The lighthouse tops out around 73-75m (the light height is classified as 73m, so let's assume the roof above the light glass adds another 2m or so)

IF the land and the seas around this Isle were truly flat, surely my descending sightline through the top of the lighthouse (100m downward to 73m) MUST meet the flat plane of the sea at some point?  Simple geometry dictates this.



My sightline is not meeting the sea. There's only sky behind the lighthouse.

Conclusion; the land and seas, around East Lothian at least, are decidedly not flat.



Perhaps, OP, you could generate some photos or diagrams yourself, to show what you mean?

I can't see the picture you want to show, because it belongs to Google.So I repeat, if you can understand what I'm saying, please answer my question, and if you can't understand, please explain where you can't understand.The rest doesn't even fit the theme I'm talking about, so please don't mention it to me.