#### İntikam

##### if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« on: May 04, 2016, 08:06:28 AM »
The angle of polaris and the earth axis are same has about 1/4 degrees difference.

But our glober friends claim that the earth bowing a side 5 degrees for summer and bowing to the other side for winter. It makes a total of 10 degrees. however, the angle of polaris don't change to the earth more than 1 degree difference. This means the earth looking the direction different summer and winter that has 10 degrees difference.

if the polaris is moving at a speed where the earth's new direction or we need to throw away the system.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 08:16:10 AM by İntikam »

#### thatsnice

• 47
• Don't you just love Reuleaux triangles?
##### Re: if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2016, 12:06:36 PM »
The angle of polaris and the earth axis are same has about 1/4 degrees difference.

But our glober friends claim that the earth bowing a side 5 degrees for summer and bowing to the other side for winter. It makes a total of 10 degrees. however, the angle of polaris don't change to the earth more than 1 degree difference. This means the earth looking the direction different summer and winter that has 10 degrees difference.

if the polaris is moving at a speed where the earth's new direction or we need to throw away the system.

The axis doesn't physically change, it does relative to the sun however.

Polaris is a very far distance away(433.8 lightyears, or 2.55 * 1015 miles.) So going in orbit around the sun(a maximum horizontal change of 185,900,000 miles)  will only give a very slight change in the angle of Polaris.
"You never go full retard."

#### TheTruthIsOnHere

• 943
##### Re: if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2016, 12:26:57 PM »
How do we knew the stars are that far away? Do we assume that because of the lack of stellar parallax?

#### İntikam

##### Re: if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2016, 01:28:53 PM »
The angle of polaris and the earth axis are same has about 1/4 degrees difference.

But our glober friends claim that the earth bowing a side 5 degrees for summer and bowing to the other side for winter. It makes a total of 10 degrees. however, the angle of polaris don't change to the earth more than 1 degree difference. This means the earth looking the direction different summer and winter that has 10 degrees difference.

if the polaris is moving at a speed where the earth's new direction or we need to throw away the system.

The axis doesn't physically change, it does relative to the sun however.

Polaris is a very far distance away(433.8 lightyears, or 2.55 * 1015 miles.) So going in orbit around the sun(a maximum horizontal change of 185,900,000 miles)  will only give a very slight change in the angle of Polaris.

The earth axis is phsically impossible.

Because which pole is near to sun, it must continue to be near; which pole is far to sun, it must continue to be far. You are drawing the opposite it but it opposite of the saving the momentum.

Look to this shape:

Watch a spinnig of a whirligig. Which way is it turning around, it is usually the same side is bent to the center of the way. You are claiming opposite. So you need a very strong argumant to say except imaginary evidences.

To understand this evidence, think a motorcycle that comes to a constantly bend. the motorcycle leans toward the center of the curve and resumes this position. If the motorcycle bent the opposite side, then a force occurs that launches the bike.

If the earth is not tilted toward the sun with same pole, then some forces occurs then let it out of orbit to infinity.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 01:44:45 PM by İntikam »

#### thatsnice

• 47
• Don't you just love Reuleaux triangles?
##### Re: if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2016, 01:52:09 PM »
The angle of polaris and the earth axis are same has about 1/4 degrees difference.

But our glober friends claim that the earth bowing a side 5 degrees for summer and bowing to the other side for winter. It makes a total of 10 degrees. however, the angle of polaris don't change to the earth more than 1 degree difference. This means the earth looking the direction different summer and winter that has 10 degrees difference.

if the polaris is moving at a speed where the earth's new direction or we need to throw away the system.

The axis doesn't physically change, it does relative to the sun however.

Polaris is a very far distance away(433.8 lightyears, or 2.55 * 1015 miles.) So going in orbit around the sun(a maximum horizontal change of 185,900,000 miles)  will only give a very slight change in the angle of Polaris.

The earth axis is phsically impossible.

Because which pole is near to sun, it must continue to be near; which pole is far to sun, it must continue to be far. You are drawing the opposite it but it opposite of the saving the momentum.

Look to this shape:

Watch a spinnig of a whirligig. Which way is it turning around, it is usually the same side is bent to the center of the way. You are claiming opposite. So you need a very strong argumant to say except imaginary evidences.

Well, the reason that doesn't happen is because the earth is massive. Conservation of angular momentum and rotational kinetic energy would state that it would take a humongous amount of energy to turn the earth's axis while it is spinning. That's why axial precession happens.(much like holding a spinning bicycle tire) Your whirligig comparison isn't akin because that doesn't have extremely high amounts of mass. However, you are sort of right. The earth's axis does change very slightly. Over a period of 13,000 years, it will turn 47 degrees counter-clockwise due to tidal effects of other celestial bodies.

Imagine a spinning ball in space. It will spin forever unless a force is applied to it, right? It won't randomly start moving in a direction, right?(Conservation of translational energy) In the same idea, it won't start rotating randomly(Precessional force and conservation of angular momentum)

Now, if you don't know what precessional force is, take this experiment. If you have a bike, take off the front wheel and spin it very quickly. Hold the axes with both hands and try to rotate it. The force will cause your body to turn in a direction perpendicular to torsive force you are applying. Imagine doing it with a larger, more massive, and faster spinning object.

Hope this helps.
"You never go full retard."

#### İntikam

##### Re: if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2016, 02:03:20 PM »
The angle of polaris and the earth axis are same has about 1/4 degrees difference.

But our glober friends claim that the earth bowing a side 5 degrees for summer and bowing to the other side for winter. It makes a total of 10 degrees. however, the angle of polaris don't change to the earth more than 1 degree difference. This means the earth looking the direction different summer and winter that has 10 degrees difference.

if the polaris is moving at a speed where the earth's new direction or we need to throw away the system.

The axis doesn't physically change, it does relative to the sun however.

Polaris is a very far distance away(433.8 lightyears, or 2.55 * 1015 miles.) So going in orbit around the sun(a maximum horizontal change of 185,900,000 miles)  will only give a very slight change in the angle of Polaris.

The earth axis is phsically impossible.

Because which pole is near to sun, it must continue to be near; which pole is far to sun, it must continue to be far. You are drawing the opposite it but it opposite of the saving the momentum.

Look to this shape:

Watch a spinnig of a whirligig. Which way is it turning around, it is usually the same side is bent to the center of the way. You are claiming opposite. So you need a very strong argumant to say except imaginary evidences.

Well, the reason that doesn't happen is because the earth is massive. Conservation of angular momentum and rotational kinetic energy would state that it would take a humongous amount of energy to turn the earth's axis while it is spinning. That's why axial precession happens.(much like holding a spinning bicycle tire) Your whirligig comparison isn't akin because that doesn't have extremely high amounts of mass. However, you are sort of right. The earth's axis does change very slightly. Over a period of 13,000 years, it will turn 47 degrees counter-clockwise due to tidal effects of other celestial bodies.

Imagine a spinning ball in space. It will spin forever unless a force is applied to it, right? It won't randomly start moving in a direction, right?(Conservation of translational energy) In the same idea, it won't start rotating randomly(Precessional force and conservation of angular momentum)

Now, if you don't know what precessional force is, take this experiment. If you have a bike, take off the front wheel and spin it very quickly. Hold the axes with both hands and try to rotate it. The force will cause your body to turn in a direction perpendicular to torsive force you are applying. Imagine doing it with a larger, more massive, and faster spinning object.

Hope this helps.

You are not talking about phsics. I know what you are talking about. You are wrote a fable. precessional force don't changes the movement.

Forget spinnig. Think it just rotating around the sun. Then you understand what i am talking. Or you can act as you don't understand you are free.

#### andruszkow

• 563
##### Re: if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2016, 02:47:11 PM »
The angle of polaris and the earth axis are same has about 1/4 degrees difference.

But our glober friends claim that the earth bowing a side 5 degrees for summer and bowing to the other side for winter. It makes a total of 10 degrees. however, the angle of polaris don't change to the earth more than 1 degree difference. This means the earth looking the direction different summer and winter that has 10 degrees difference.

if the polaris is moving at a speed where the earth's new direction or we need to throw away the system.

The axis doesn't physically change, it does relative to the sun however.

Polaris is a very far distance away(433.8 lightyears, or 2.55 * 1015 miles.) So going in orbit around the sun(a maximum horizontal change of 185,900,000 miles)  will only give a very slight change in the angle of Polaris.

The earth axis is phsically impossible.

Because which pole is near to sun, it must continue to be near; which pole is far to sun, it must continue to be far. You are drawing the opposite it but it opposite of the saving the momentum.

Look to this shape:

Watch a spinnig of a whirligig. Which way is it turning around, it is usually the same side is bent to the center of the way. You are claiming opposite. So you need a very strong argumant to say except imaginary evidences.

Well, the reason that doesn't happen is because the earth is massive. Conservation of angular momentum and rotational kinetic energy would state that it would take a humongous amount of energy to turn the earth's axis while it is spinning. That's why axial precession happens.(much like holding a spinning bicycle tire) Your whirligig comparison isn't akin because that doesn't have extremely high amounts of mass. However, you are sort of right. The earth's axis does change very slightly. Over a period of 13,000 years, it will turn 47 degrees counter-clockwise due to tidal effects of other celestial bodies.

Imagine a spinning ball in space. It will spin forever unless a force is applied to it, right? It won't randomly start moving in a direction, right?(Conservation of translational energy) In the same idea, it won't start rotating randomly(Precessional force and conservation of angular momentum)

Now, if you don't know what precessional force is, take this experiment. If you have a bike, take off the front wheel and spin it very quickly. Hold the axes with both hands and try to rotate it. The force will cause your body to turn in a direction perpendicular to torsive force you are applying. Imagine doing it with a larger, more massive, and faster spinning object.

Hope this helps.

You are not talking about phsics. I know what you are talking about. You are wrote a fable. precessional force don't changes the movement.

Forget spinnig. Think it just rotating around the sun. Then you understand what i am talking. Or you can act as you don't understand you are free.

Nobody is acting. He corrected you, and replaced the incorrect statements you posted, with what's actually happening.

Why is it that when someone corrects you, or have a different opinion, you go all "Liar!" and "Fable!" on us? It's like watching a kid being told that he can't play with the blue ball (pun intended) because it isn't his.

You said it yourself. This is a workshop. So work with the facts thrown at you instead of standing in the corner acting all offended with your arms crossed.
Ignored by Intikam since 2016.

#### UnionsOfSolarSystemPlanet

• 126
• The Moon orbits spherical Earth!
##### Re: if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2016, 03:03:46 PM »
The Earth's tilt isn't moving at all, viewed from Earth's rotational pole, the Earth does not seem to have any inclination, but it is the Sun that's going up and down.
I made these pic showing Earth's rotational axis viewed from a straight ecliptic and a straight equator http://imgur.com/a/IYPD9
They are basically the same thing.
The size of the Solar system if the Moon were only 1 pixel:
http://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem.html

#### TheTruthIsOnHere

• 943
##### Re: if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2016, 03:07:25 PM »
What I wonder about, is everyone always talks about the conservation of momentum... what is the original force that made Earth travel? I find it hard to believe or comprehend that planets remain in orbit without an actual force keeping them moving, gravity of the sun is often the ad hoc explanation.

But where did his initial momentum come from? Is this what the hypothetical big bang is supposed to explain?

Also... why would gravity make things orbit elliptically around an object... if the law of gravity states that a molecule is intrinsically pulled to every other molecule inversely squared to the distance between them... then why isn't everything careening into the Sun?

#### UnionsOfSolarSystemPlanet

• 126
• The Moon orbits spherical Earth!
##### Re: if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2016, 03:29:55 PM »
How do we knew the stars are that far away? Do we assume that because of the lack of stellar parallax?
Quite the opposite, we measure a star's parallax then we calculate it's parsec which can be translated into light-years. (Light-year is basically just a measuring stick, it doesn't have much to do in any calculation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_parallax

if the law of gravity states that a molecule is intrinsically pulled to every other molecule inversely squared to the distance between them... then why isn't everything careening into the Sun?
Because gravity isn't the only law this Universe have, Electromagnetism is much much more stronger.
The size of the Solar system if the Moon were only 1 pixel:
http://joshworth.com/dev/pixelspace/pixelspace_solarsystem.html

#### thatsnice

• 47
• Don't you just love Reuleaux triangles?
##### Re: if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2016, 03:39:30 PM »
The angle of polaris and the earth axis are same has about 1/4 degrees difference.

But our glober friends claim that the earth bowing a side 5 degrees for summer and bowing to the other side for winter. It makes a total of 10 degrees. however, the angle of polaris don't change to the earth more than 1 degree difference. This means the earth looking the direction different summer and winter that has 10 degrees difference.

if the polaris is moving at a speed where the earth's new direction or we need to throw away the system.

The axis doesn't physically change, it does relative to the sun however.

Polaris is a very far distance away(433.8 lightyears, or 2.55 * 1015 miles.) So going in orbit around the sun(a maximum horizontal change of 185,900,000 miles)  will only give a very slight change in the angle of Polaris.

The earth axis is phsically impossible.

Because which pole is near to sun, it must continue to be near; which pole is far to sun, it must continue to be far. You are drawing the opposite it but it opposite of the saving the momentum.

Look to this shape:

Watch a spinnig of a whirligig. Which way is it turning around, it is usually the same side is bent to the center of the way. You are claiming opposite. So you need a very strong argumant to say except imaginary evidences.

Well, the reason that doesn't happen is because the earth is massive. Conservation of angular momentum and rotational kinetic energy would state that it would take a humongous amount of energy to turn the earth's axis while it is spinning. That's why axial precession happens.(much like holding a spinning bicycle tire) Your whirligig comparison isn't akin because that doesn't have extremely high amounts of mass. However, you are sort of right. The earth's axis does change very slightly. Over a period of 13,000 years, it will turn 47 degrees counter-clockwise due to tidal effects of other celestial bodies.

Imagine a spinning ball in space. It will spin forever unless a force is applied to it, right? It won't randomly start moving in a direction, right?(Conservation of translational energy) In the same idea, it won't start rotating randomly(Precessional force and conservation of angular momentum)

Now, if you don't know what precessional force is, take this experiment. If you have a bike, take off the front wheel and spin it very quickly. Hold the axes with both hands and try to rotate it. The force will cause your body to turn in a direction perpendicular to torsive force you are applying. Imagine doing it with a larger, more massive, and faster spinning object.

Hope this helps.

You are not talking about phsics. I know what you are talking about. You are wrote a fable. precessional force don't changes the movement.

Forget spinnig. Think it just rotating around the sun. Then you understand what i am talking. Or you can act as you don't understand you are free.

I am talking about physics actually. Precessional force is a vector cross-product or torque and gravity on a spinning object. Let me clarify.

Take your whirligig. That leaning towards the center is because it is precessing in earth's gravity.
Tap it any move it in any direction, the axis will turn towards the direction of movement?

Take that same whirligig and put it in space. It won't wobble on an observable scale because it is barely precessing in microgravity
Even move it in any direction, the axis will not change towards the direction of movement.

I've calculated gravitational acceleration on the earth by the sun to be about .00588 m/s2. So this very small acceleration causes a very small change in the earth's axis, observably different over thousands of years. So as I said before, you are right, however on a much much smaller scale than you predicted.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 04:11:44 PM by thatsnice »
"You never go full retard."

#### thatsnice

• 47
• Don't you just love Reuleaux triangles?
##### Re: if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2016, 03:53:59 PM »
Also... why would gravity make things orbit elliptically around an object... if the law of gravity states that a molecule is intrinsically pulled to every other molecule inversely squared to the distance between them... then why isn't everything careening into the Sun?

Because we are moving sideways in relation to it.

Do you know those coin funnels at shopping malls that kids like? The coin spins around down into the hole?(if not, imagine putting a bowling ball on a bed and rolling a marble around it).

Same idea as general relativity, gravity bends space-time into a funnel, and things with linear velocity tangent to it curves the path of the object if it's too fast or too far away. However, if an object is a little too slow or too close, it begins to spiral towards the middle.

You may ask: "Nice, why aren't we getting closer to the sun then?" That's because in the coin funnel, friction slows the coin down. In space, there is nothing to slow us down aside from other gravitational forces.

You may ask: "Nice, does that mean gravity never ends?" Well it does, that's why we regard space as "microgravity"; there are infinite gravitational(albeit extremely small) forces acting on us wherever we are. Any object of energy applies gravitational potential to others. you can model this using the Law of Gravitation and the Inverse Square Law.
"You never go full retard."

#### TheTruthIsOnHere

• 943
##### Re: if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2016, 05:18:39 PM »
How do we knew the stars are that far away? Do we assume that because of the lack of stellar parallax?
Quite the opposite, we measure a star's parallax then we calculate it's parsec which can be translated into light-years. (Light-year is basically just a measuring stick, it doesn't have much to do in any calculation)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_parallax

I read the article and it seems like the entire phenomenon hasn't really been studied to any significant degree. Supposedly with current technology we can only measure this phenomenon on stars less than 1% of our galaxy's diameter away from Earth. So how exactly can we tell how far away the 99% of the other stars are away from Earth? Doesn't seem like an exact science.

So to expand upon that, are we to assume that every star in the universe is a similarly imperceptible distance from each other? It seems highly unlikely that our star just happens to be this red headed stepchild so in our galaxy.

if the law of gravity states that a molecule is intrinsically pulled to every other molecule inversely squared to the distance between them... then why isn't everything careening into the Sun?
Because gravity isn't the only law this Universe have, Electromagnetism is much much more stronger.
[/quote]

Please expand upon that, I haven't heard much if anything about that before in relation to the movement of bodies in our solar system.

#### thatsnice

• 47
• Don't you just love Reuleaux triangles?
##### Re: if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2016, 05:53:30 PM »
So to expand upon that, are we to assume that every star in the universe is a similarly imperceptible distance from each other? It seems highly unlikely that our star just happens to be this red headed stepchild so in our galaxy.

It isn't. Most stars are actually very far from each other, averaging 4.2 light-years away from each other, it's just to any observer from any angle and position, objects of unknown distance seem to be next to each other.

Imagine having a ball that is one mile away and another one that is two miles away but four times as big. It will appear as though they are next to each other but one will be a little more blurry(this doesn't matter for stars as there is no atmosphere in space).

At longer distances away, the relative size becomes less distinguishable and makes them look more similar due to parallax. That's why they appear to be the same size(-ish).
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 05:57:35 PM by thatsnice »
"You never go full retard."

#### rabinoz

• 1441
• Just look South at the Stars
##### Re: if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2016, 08:49:44 AM »
What I wonder about, is everyone always talks about the conservation of momentum... what is the original force that made Earth travel? I find it hard to believe or comprehend that planets remain in orbit without an actual force keeping them moving, gravity of the sun is often the ad hoc explanation.

But where did his initial momentum come from? Is this what the hypothetical big bang is supposed to explain?

Also... why would gravity make things orbit elliptically around an object... if the law of gravity states that a molecule is intrinsically pulled to every other molecule inversely squared to the distance between them... then why isn't everything careening into the Sun?
Even in the Flat Earth model "things"  are moving.  The sun, moon and shadow object orbit the earth in a strange spiral pattern, the planets orbit the sun and the stars orbit around Polaris, over the North Pole. If you want more detail on this ask "the Wiki", don't ask me.

So, flat or Globe, something started it all running!

You ask, "why would gravity make things orbit elliptically around an object"? All I can say is that is what you get when you solve the equations involving gravitation and Newton's laws of motion. Actually Johannes Kepler working with the data largely gathered by Tycho Brahe (who as it happens did not accept Copernicus' ideas) found that the planets were moving in (almost) elliptical orbits. Newton in the meantime (actually I don't know all the dates off the top of my head) found that a single small object orbited a large one in an elliptical orbit - nicely tying it all Up.

Of course there are 8 full planets, a number of minor planets and an almost innumerable number of asteroids and comets etc orbiting the sun. This means that the orbits of the planets are not quite elliptical because a given planet is affected by the others, though only the ones either side are significant. The orbits of Neptune and Pluto are an extreme case where sometimes Pluto is closer to the Sun than Neptune.

Then you ask "then why isn't everything careening into the Sun?". Simply because gravitation is only one of the forces involved. The acceleration due to say the Sun's gravitation is balanced by the centripetal acceleration of the planet moving in a curved orbit.

But, the bottom line is simply that Flat Earth or Globe, the Earth and all the Celestial objects are in motion.

At least for the Heliocentric Globe these motions are (in general) explainable.

But there seems no rational explanation of the movements of the Celestial objects in the Flat Earth model - in particular nothing to explain what makes Sun (Moon and shadow object) move the required spiral sort of motion.

#### Unsure101

• 142
##### Re: if the Earth's axis varies in summer and winter how polaris stay at same place?
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2016, 02:01:16 PM »
What I wonder about, is everyone always talks about the conservation of momentum... what is the original force that made Earth travel? I find it hard to believe or comprehend that planets remain in orbit without an actual force keeping them moving, gravity of the sun is often the ad hoc explanation.

But where did his initial momentum come from? Is this what the hypothetical big bang is supposed to explain?

Also... why would gravity make things orbit elliptically around an object... if the law of gravity states that a molecule is intrinsically pulled to every other molecule inversely squared to the distance between them... then why isn't everything careening into the Sun?
Even in the Flat Earth model "things"  are moving.  The sun, moon and shadow object orbit the earth in a strange spiral pattern, the planets orbit the sun and the stars orbit around Polaris, over the North Pole. If you want more detail on this ask "the Wiki", don't ask me.

So, flat or Globe, something started it all running!

You ask, "why would gravity make things orbit elliptically around an object"? All I can say is that is what you get when you solve the equations involving gravitation and Newton's laws of motion. Actually Johannes Kepler working with the data largely gathered by Tycho Brahe (who as it happens did not accept Copernicus' ideas) found that the planets were moving in (almost) elliptical orbits. Newton in the meantime (actually I don't know all the dates off the top of my head) found that a single small object orbited a large one in an elliptical orbit - nicely tying it all Up.

Of course there are 8 full planets, a number of minor planets and an almost innumerable number of asteroids and comets etc orbiting the sun. This means that the orbits of the planets are not quite elliptical because a given planet is affected by the others, though only the ones either side are significant. The orbits of Neptune and Pluto are an extreme case where sometimes Pluto is closer to the Sun than Neptune.

Then you ask "then why isn't everything careening into the Sun?". Simply because gravitation is only one of the forces involved. The acceleration due to say the Sun's gravitation is balanced by the centripetal acceleration of the planet moving in a curved orbit.

But, the bottom line is simply that Flat Earth or Globe, the Earth and all the Celestial objects are in motion.

At least for the Heliocentric Globe these motions are (in general) explainable.

But there seems no rational explanation of the movements of the Celestial objects in the Flat Earth model - in particular nothing to explain what makes Sun (Moon and shadow object) move the required spiral sort of motion.
Come on Rab, celestial gears and mystical aether. Get with the program.