Offline Unsure101

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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2016, 08:54:44 PM »
Mind you, tonight in the southern hemisphere, the moon was illuminated from the lower right side leaving the upper left in shadow. 
Not sure how this is possible if the sun and Moon are at the same altitude.
More bendy light or the mystical shadow object?!?

They're not at the same altitude.

Excuse me?
It was determined via triangulation that the celestial bodies are about the same height as the sun. We have documentation of our method of triangulation, but it is mostly in specific regards to the sun. It was found that the celestial bodies behave similarly, and so they were lumped into the same altitude of the sun. For specifics of the triangulation method, look for the article on the Sun's Distance on the Wiki on the front page.

What evidence is there that the moon is 250,000 miles from the earth?

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Offline Woody

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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2016, 09:17:49 PM »
Mind you, tonight in the southern hemisphere, the moon was illuminated from the lower right side leaving the upper left in shadow. 
Not sure how this is possible if the sun and Moon are at the same altitude.
More bendy light or the mystical shadow object?!?

They're not at the same altitude.

Excuse me?
It was determined via triangulation that the celestial bodies are about the same height as the sun. We have documentation of our method of triangulation, but it is mostly in specific regards to the sun. It was found that the celestial bodies behave similarly, and so they were lumped into the same altitude of the sun. For specifics of the triangulation method, look for the article on the Sun's Distance on the Wiki on the front page.

What evidence is there that the moon is 250,000 miles from the earth?

Are you new?

Math works only when proving FE.

Observations are not collectively reviewed.  They are done on a case by case basis.  It does not matter if observations that say the Earth is flat conflict with each other.  It is how the FE Zetetic method works.

Aether, really bendy light and laws of perspective that change to fit the situation makes it all fit together some how.

Offline Chris C

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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2016, 10:09:29 PM »
This one is easy. My 8-year-old son pointed it out. So take a ball and a flashlight. Place the ball on the ground and shine the flashlight on it to represent a full moon. This will work best when it's dark. 1. Stand directly in front ball observe. 2. Stand directly on the side of the ball what do you see? 1. full moon, 2. One-half moon? Now place a marker where you stood. Now move the ball a few feet away from its original location as well as the flashlight. (Move the ball in North direction) Now again stand in the same 2 places you stood before and look directly at the ball. Now, what do you see? You should see a full moon from both 1&2 locations.  Remember the moon is 230,100 mi away from the Earth. You see the moon from Earths perspective.

If you don't want to do the whole ball and light thing. Try this

http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/lunarcycles/moonphases.html

Select Moon perspective and start the animation. This should shine some light on the whole moon question.

Tip if you select from space prospective you can then freely move the arrow and simulate the ball and light Example.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 10:15:32 PM by Chris C »

Offline Unsure101

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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2016, 10:24:50 AM »
Mind you, tonight in the southern hemisphere, the moon was illuminated from the lower right side leaving the upper left in shadow. 
Not sure how this is possible if the sun and Moon are at the same altitude.
More bendy light or the mystical shadow object?!?

They're not at the same altitude.

Excuse me?
It was determined via triangulation that the celestial bodies are about the same height as the sun. We have documentation of our method of triangulation, but it is mostly in specific regards to the sun. It was found that the celestial bodies behave similarly, and so they were lumped into the same altitude of the sun. For specifics of the triangulation method, look for the article on the Sun's Distance on the Wiki on the front page.

What evidence is there that the moon is 250,000 miles from the earth?

Are you new?

Math works only when proving FE.

Observations are not collectively reviewed.  They are done on a case by case basis.  It does not matter if observations that say the Earth is flat conflict with each other.  It is how the FE Zetetic method works.

Aether, really bendy light and laws of perspective that change to fit the situation makes it all fit together some how.
I just thought it odd that Tom either forgot his earlier post, or had changed his mind.
Remember, you have to live the lie in order to really believe it...

İntikam

Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2016, 11:43:05 AM »
Impossible. Completely impossible.



The moon must loose it's angel with sun and the earth but it's saving it's shape. Watch it.



İmpossible. Completely impossible.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 11:51:28 AM by İntikam »

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Offline Rounder

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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2016, 12:40:10 PM »
I am unclear about your post.  Which thing is impossible?  Round earth, small distance to small moon and sun, or the video?
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İntikam

Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2016, 01:31:43 PM »
The graphic shows that The full moon is an exceptional circumstance. So you can see it only briefly and this possible only a very narrow field on the earth.

The angel of sun-moon-earth direction  continuously changes. So it is impossible you see the full moon more than just a few minutes.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 01:34:22 PM by İntikam »

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Offline Rounder

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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2016, 02:04:26 PM »
The graphic shows that The full moon is an exceptional circumstance. So you can see it only briefly and this possible only a very narrow field on the earth.

The angel of sun-moon-earth direction  continuously changes. So it is impossible you see the full moon more than just a few minutes.

You're saying that a full moon only lasts a few minutes?  This....does not match my experience.  On the night of a full moon, it has always been a full moon (within the limits of my visual acuity, of course) for the entire night.  I'll grant you that there is only a single moment where the perfect physical alignment of objects exists to produce maximum fullness, but the difference between that one perfect moment and the hours on either side is undetectable to human vision.  For that matter, even the night before and the night after the official full moon both appear pretty much as full moons as well, sometimes it's hard to tell which night is truly the full moon.
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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2016, 03:37:42 PM »
The moon is never TRULY full. True full moon might occur at daytime, or the moon might have moved in its orbit to not be truly full. However, this is only looking at it with exceptional detail.

What those drawings try to outline has nothing to do with it though. As always, out of scale drawings like those are useless, without even beginning to highlight the importance of the size of the sun, the moons inclination, and the distances involved.

More blanks fired. TFES has a new proponent all fired up and ready to fail :)
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2016, 06:21:14 PM »
Mind you, tonight in the southern hemisphere, the moon was illuminated from the lower right side leaving the upper left in shadow. 
Not sure how this is possible if the sun and Moon are at the same altitude.
More bendy light or the mystical shadow object?!?

They're not at the same altitude.

Excuse me?
It was determined via triangulation that the celestial bodies are about the same height as the sun. We have documentation of our method of triangulation, but it is mostly in specific regards to the sun. It was found that the celestial bodies behave similarly, and so they were lumped into the same altitude of the sun. For specifics of the triangulation method, look for the article on the Sun's Distance on the Wiki on the front page.

What evidence is there that the moon is 250,000 miles from the earth?

There is no contradiction. All of the celestial bodies being about the same height != all are at the same height.

For example, for many years we have held that the stars are generally just above the altitude of the sun.

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Offline BlueMoon

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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2016, 06:37:49 PM »
Mind you, tonight in the southern hemisphere, the moon was illuminated from the lower right side leaving the upper left in shadow. 
Not sure how this is possible if the sun and Moon are at the same altitude.
More bendy light or the mystical shadow object?!?

They're not at the same altitude.

Excuse me?
It was determined via triangulation that the celestial bodies are about the same height as the sun. We have documentation of our method of triangulation, but it is mostly in specific regards to the sun. It was found that the celestial bodies behave similarly, and so they were lumped into the same altitude of the sun. For specifics of the triangulation method, look for the article on the Sun's Distance on the Wiki on the front page.

What evidence is there that the moon is 250,000 miles from the earth?

There is no contradiction. All of the celestial bodies being about the same height != all are at the same height.

For example, for many years we have held that the stars are generally just above the altitude of the sun.
You know, we have our own method of measuring the distance to other stars.  It's called stellar parallax.  Perhaps you'd like to explain how your triangulation works?
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Offline thatsnice

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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2016, 06:44:57 PM »
I don't mean to impede on any discussion that could come right now, but to add on to the questions, how is it possible to see the full moon in Antarctica? I mean, no matter regarding the "Controversial 'altitudes' of the moon and sun", there is no orientation that allows for that phenomenon throughout an entire day. The only plausible train of thought is that the moon and sun are level with each other and that at one point during their revolutions, there are two incident angles that allow for full moons, directly to the west and east of the viewer. However the problem arises when, during the movement of these celestial bodies, the moon quickly loses the light from the sun, resulting in a new moon, and then regains it again, resulting in a full moon. I'm genuinely curious and if anyone could address this, I'd be grateful. Thank you
"You never go full retard."

Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2016, 06:58:57 PM »
There is no contradiction. All of the celestial bodies being about the same height != all are at the same height.

For example, for many years we have held that the stars are generally just above the altitude of the sun.

FYI, this is the debate section of the forum. You completely dismissed the evidence given in the original post. That's fine. But you seem to completely dodge giving any reason WHY you dismissed this evidence. And you seem to be avoiding giving out any details of your counter-theory. This isn't very conducive to debate. If anything, this is an indication that you don't have a viable counter-theory.

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Offline Rounder

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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2016, 08:33:55 PM »
Emphasis added:
There is no contradiction. All of the celestial bodies being about the same height != all are at the same height.

How much variation in height do you think there is?  Many times, in many threads, I have seen you claiming the support of the wiki's "approximately" term.  Just how approximate is the 3000 miles figure?  Plus or minus how much, ballpark?  A few solar or lunar diameters?  Half the distance from here to there?  I ask because I'm curious to play with the geometry for the uppermost lunar position and the lowermost solar position, to see if any arrangement of these celestial objects could give us the moon phases we see.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2016, 11:00:25 PM »
You know, we have our own method of measuring the distance to other stars.  It's called stellar parallax.  Perhaps you'd like to explain how your triangulation works?

The observations in the stellar parallax experiments are taken at different parts of the year. It is explained in FET by having the stars move northward or southward over the course of the year, just like the sun.

Emphasis added:
There is no contradiction. All of the celestial bodies being about the same height != all are at the same height.

How much variation in height do you think there is?  Many times, in many threads, I have seen you claiming the support of the wiki's "approximately" term.  Just how approximate is the 3000 miles figure?  Plus or minus how much, ballpark?  A few solar or lunar diameters?  Half the distance from here to there?  I ask because I'm curious to play with the geometry for the uppermost lunar position and the lowermost solar position, to see if any arrangement of these celestial objects could give us the moon phases we see.

Unknown at present.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 11:19:10 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2016, 11:06:03 PM »
There is no contradiction. All of the celestial bodies being about the same height != all are at the same height.

For example, for many years we have held that the stars are generally just above the altitude of the sun.

FYI, this is the debate section of the forum. You completely dismissed the evidence given in the original post. That's fine. But you seem to completely dodge giving any reason WHY you dismissed this evidence. And you seem to be avoiding giving out any details of your counter-theory. This isn't very conducive to debate. If anything, this is an indication that you don't have a viable counter-theory.

What evidence in the original post? A small diagram isn't evidence. That doesn't tell us how perspective behaves at large distances.

I asked for a name of the scientist who studied perspective and was met with silence. I asked what evidence there was that perspective works in the way the ancient greeks described and I got silence. There is no evidence for me to refute.

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Offline BlueMoon

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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2016, 11:55:25 PM »
There is no contradiction. All of the celestial bodies being about the same height != all are at the same height.

For example, for many years we have held that the stars are generally just above the altitude of the sun.

FYI, this is the debate section of the forum. You completely dismissed the evidence given in the original post. That's fine. But you seem to completely dodge giving any reason WHY you dismissed this evidence. And you seem to be avoiding giving out any details of your counter-theory. This isn't very conducive to debate. If anything, this is an indication that you don't have a viable counter-theory.

What evidence in the original post? A small diagram isn't evidence. That doesn't tell us how perspective behaves at large distances.

I asked for a name of the scientist who studied perspective and was met with silence. I asked what evidence there was that perspective works in the way the ancient greeks described and I got silence. There is no evidence for me to refute.
Do you have any evidence that perspective doesn't work like that, besides the fact that you really, really want the earth to be flat?  If you want to upset a well-established mathematical convention, the burden of proof is on you. 
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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2016, 01:34:15 AM »
I asked for a name of the scientist who studied perspective and was met with silence. I asked what evidence there was that perspective works in the way the ancient greeks described and I got silence. There is no evidence for me to refute.

I apologize. Wikipedia gives a very nice overview of the subject, with references if you want to dive deeper. It isn't a controversial or complicated subject.

Linear Perspective:
Quote
The two most characteristic features of perspective are that objects are smaller as their distance from the observer increases; and that they are subject to foreshortening, meaning that an object's dimensions along the line of sight are shorter than its dimensions across the line of sight.

As for names of people who studied it:
Quote
Italian Renaissance painters and architects including Filippo Brunelleschi, Masaccio, Paolo Uccello, Piero della Francesca and Luca Pacioli studied linear perspective, wrote treatises on it, and incorporated it into their artworks, thus contributing to the mathematics of art.

Also relevant is how the atmosphere effects our view of objects:
Quote
As the distance between an object and a viewer increases, the contrast between the object and its background decreases, and the contrast of any markings or details within the object also decreases. The colours of the object also become less saturated and shift towards the background color...

I bolded the main features of perspective. Do you have any reason to believe that any of this is not true? Be specific please.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2016, 08:40:55 AM »
There is no contradiction. All of the celestial bodies being about the same height != all are at the same height.

For example, for many years we have held that the stars are generally just above the altitude of the sun.

FYI, this is the debate section of the forum. You completely dismissed the evidence given in the original post. That's fine. But you seem to completely dodge giving any reason WHY you dismissed this evidence. And you seem to be avoiding giving out any details of your counter-theory. This isn't very conducive to debate. If anything, this is an indication that you don't have a viable counter-theory.

What evidence in the original post? A small diagram isn't evidence. That doesn't tell us how perspective behaves at large distances.

I asked for a name of the scientist who studied perspective and was met with silence. I asked what evidence there was that perspective works in the way the ancient greeks described and I got silence. There is no evidence for me to refute.

Do you have any evidence that "perspective behaves at large distances" any differently for what you call large distances to what it does over moderate distances?

In the original post I claimed to have proved nothing. I asked what I thought was a quite reasonable question.
In case you have forgotten, you claimed my first photo was not to scale, so I obliged and made one to scale:

We can't see the sun, moon or the people on this one, but it's to the best scale that I can manage.

Flat Earth Sun Moon - almost to scale
I have drawn in the paths that the light would seem to be required for the people on the ground to see a complete full moon.

The observer under the moon looks straight up to the Full Moon and the observer where the full moon is rising or setting has to look horizontally to see the moon.

I have drawn what to me seems to be the paths light would have to take for each observer to see the moon as full.

On top of this is the observation that on the real earth each observer sees almost exactly the same sized moon, but in your model the observer under the moon is about 3,000 miles away, while the other one is around THREE times that distance away - how is it possible for each to see the same sized moon.

Now, your Wiki gives a "sort of" explanations for the sun:
Quote from: the Wiki
Magnification and Shrinking
Q: If the sun is disappearing to perspective, shouldn't it get smaller as it recedes?
A: The sun remains the same size as it recedes into the distance due to a known magnification effect caused by the intense rays of light passing through the strata of the atmolayer.

Now while I in no way accept that explanation for the sun, it CANNOT be given as a reason for the moon's apparent size staying the same - for the moon there are no"intense rays of light passing through the strata of the atmolayer."

So I am not claiming to having proved anything. I am asking:
  • What are the light paths that allow all observers to see a full moon?
  • How does the moon appear (almost exactly) the same size to all observers?

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: How does a Full Moon appear Full for everyone?
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2016, 08:52:55 AM »
This one is easy. My 8-year-old son pointed it out. So take a ball and a flashlight. Place the ball on the ground and shine the flashlight on it to represent a full moon. This will work best when it's dark. 1. Stand directly in front ball observe. 2. Stand directly on the side of the ball what do you see? 1. full moon, 2. One-half moon? Now place a marker where you stood. Now move the ball a few feet away from its original location as well as the flashlight. (Move the ball in North direction) Now again stand in the same 2 places you stood before and look directly at the ball. Now, what do you see? You should see a full moon from both 1&2 locations.  Remember the moon is 230,100 mi away from the Earth. You see the moon from Earths perspective.

If you don't want to do the whole ball and light thing. Try this

http://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/lunarcycles/moonphases.html

Select Moon perspective and start the animation. This should shine some light on the whole moon question.

Tip if you select from space prospective you can then freely move the arrow and simulate the ball and light Example.
Now wait for the claims that the moon will be shaded by the earth at the time of a Full Moon!

Moon Phases Animation at Full Moon

I've been through that one, having to bring out the "not to scale" and "moon's orbit 5.2° to the ecliptic" explanations!

Your turn this time!