Offline Action80

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2021, 03:36:36 PM »
Pete, are there any diagrams to demonstrate how EA would cause the earth to appear spherical to astronauts?

The diagrams on the wiki do a good job demonstrating the concepts for observers on the ground, I'm just struggling to picture how it would work from the ISS ~250 km above earth, or from the vantage of Apollo astronauts.
You have only anecdotal evidence the earth appeared spherical to the astronauts.

The reason you struggle with gaining a picture in your mind is because the picture will never be a possibility for you.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2021, 03:40:34 PM »

You have only anecdotal evidence the earth appeared spherical to the astronauts.

The reason you struggle with gaining a picture in your mind is because the picture will never be a possibility for you.

For the sake of argument, let's accept/park the point about appearance. I'm curious to understand how you think astronauts could perceive weightlessness if they were above a flat earth - see my question to Pete earlier.

Offline Action80

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #42 on: April 01, 2021, 11:07:10 AM »

You have only anecdotal evidence the earth appeared spherical to the astronauts.

The reason you struggle with gaining a picture in your mind is because the picture will never be a possibility for you.

For the sake of argument, let's accept/park the point about appearance. I'm curious to understand how you think astronauts could perceive weightlessness if they were above a flat earth - see my question to Pete earlier.
The same way anyone else perceives weightlessness, even when they are not truly in space.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #43 on: April 01, 2021, 11:11:52 AM »
The same way anyone else perceives weightlessness, even when they are not truly in space.

But why would they feel weightless? If they're moving around above a flat earth at a constant velocity why would they feel weightless when, for example, passengers in an airliner don't? What has changed about the physics of the situation? If you're in orbit around a round planet, then you aren't at a constant velocity - you are constantly accelerating, which is why you feel weightless.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #44 on: April 01, 2021, 11:23:04 AM »
You have only anecdotal evidence the earth appeared spherical to the astronauts.

Is there any reason this evidence should be rejected?
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Offline fisherman

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2021, 12:21:52 PM »
Quote
The same way anyone else perceives weightlessness, even when they are not truly in space.

That would violate the equivalence principle.  According to it, if you are accelerating upwards at a rate equal to gravity, away from any gravitational force, then it would feel like you are under the influence of gravity.

There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that can infer logical conclusions from given information

Offline Action80

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2021, 12:47:04 PM »
The same way anyone else perceives weightlessness, even when they are not truly in space.

But why would they feel weightless? If they're moving around above a flat earth at a constant velocity why would they feel weightless when, for example, passengers in an airliner don't? What has changed about the physics of the situation? If you're in orbit around a round planet, then you aren't at a constant velocity - you are constantly accelerating, which is why you feel weightless.
Evidently you have not been in a zero g environment while flying.

Offline Action80

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2021, 12:48:46 PM »
You have only anecdotal evidence the earth appeared spherical to the astronauts.

Is there any reason this evidence should be rejected?
Of course there is.

Governments and their acting agents have been proven to be liars concerning multiple subjects throughout history.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2021, 12:58:35 PM »
Governments and their acting agents have been proven to be liars concerning multiple subjects throughout history.

Plenty of Govts and their agents tell nothing but the truth, though.

Why not associate the astronauts with them, rather than any (alleged) liars?
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2021, 01:27:58 PM »
Plenty of Govts and their agents tell nothing but the truth, though.
Could you provide a confirmed, verifiable example of a government that tells nothing but the truth?
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2021, 01:32:55 PM »
Plenty of Govts and their agents tell nothing but the truth, though.
Could you provide a confirmed, verifiable example of a government that tells nothing but the truth?
I phrased that badly;

"Plenty of Govts and their agents tell nothing but the truth on many topics, though."

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Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2021, 02:10:06 PM »
you are constantly accelerating, which is why you feel weightless.

This is false.  Standing completely still, you feel weight.  You feel weightless because there is nothing to create the sensation of the force acting upon your body.  People orbiting the earth are in a free fall.  They simply have the correct tangential velocity that they are constantly falling past the edge of the globe.  Get the tangential velocity correct and your constant free fall is a circular path.  In space, all your surroundings are traveling in the exact same manner so they exert no force on you.  You feel weight in a plane because the floor of the plane stops you from falling to the ground.  The body of the plane is resisting the force of gravity that the passenger feels.  Nosedive the plane to the same rate as freefall and, viola, the person experiences weightlessness as there's nothing to create the sensation of force upon them.

Distance from Sydney to Perth - We don't know.
There's a mirror floating in the sky - Yup.

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2021, 02:20:52 PM »
Quote
The same way anyone else perceives weightlessness, even when they are not truly in space.

That would violate the equivalence principle.  According to it, if you are accelerating upwards at a rate equal to gravity, away from any gravitational force, then it would feel like you are under the influence of gravity.

This is a quite interesting concept.  With regards to folks in orbit I believe this would be correct. Folks in orbit are maintaining the same elevation.  As I mentioned, they are actually falling but their tangential velocity causes them fall past the earth in the RE model.  In the FE model, in order for their elevation to remain constant, there would have to be some force being exerted on them which is holding them up.  Basically, identical to being in an airplane only the force is not a physical barrier.  Still, that force would certainly be felt.
Distance from Sydney to Perth - We don't know.
There's a mirror floating in the sky - Yup.

Offline Action80

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2021, 02:27:50 PM »
Governments and their acting agents have been proven to be liars concerning multiple subjects throughout history.

Plenty of Govts and their agents tell nothing but the truth, though.

Why not associate the astronauts with them, rather than any (alleged) liars?
Such as?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2021, 02:39:14 PM »
"Plenty of Govts and their agents tell nothing but the truth on many topics, though."
The question stands
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline SteelyBob

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2021, 03:02:15 PM »
you are constantly accelerating, which is why you feel weightless.

This is false.

No, it's bang on, although I think we're actually in broad agreement. You are correct about being effectively in freefall when in orbit - but that is an acceleration, as your velocity is changing, even if your speed isn't - remember velocity is a vector, meaning the magnitude is important. We have to use words like 'freefall' carefully - a parachutist, when jumping out of a plane, will initially accelerate - during which time they will initially feel 'weightless' - but this will reduce as they eventually stabilise at a steady speed. At this point, they won't feel weightless any more - they weigh precisely the same as they do on the ground, or indeed sat on an airliner in level, unaccellerating flight.

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2021, 03:08:48 PM »
Evidently you have not been in a zero g environment while flying.

As a matter of fact, I have. 0gz is achieved in any vertical flight - although we don't really feel weightless in this case as we have simply rotated the weight vector - or in a 'bunt' manoeuvre, much like the 'vomit comet' that astronauts use for training. The point to take away though is that  0gz cannot be sustained. Leaving aside engine oil and fuel feed issues, there is simply no way of sustaining the weightless state for any prolonged period of time. Bunt manoeuvres have to end at some point, which is why the vomet comet runs only last 20-30 seconds or so.

Could you address the question at hand? How could an astronaut in something like the ISS experience sustained weightlessness lasting for months on end if they are flying over a flat earth?

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2021, 03:29:26 PM »
you are constantly accelerating, which is why you feel weightless.

This is false.

No, it's bang on, although I think we're actually in broad agreement. You are correct about being effectively in freefall when in orbit - but that is an acceleration, as your velocity is changing, even if your speed isn't - remember velocity is a vector, meaning the magnitude is important. We have to use words like 'freefall' carefully - a parachutist, when jumping out of a plane, will initially accelerate - during which time they will initially feel 'weightless' - but this will reduce as they eventually stabilise at a steady speed. At this point, they won't feel weightless any more - they weigh precisely the same as they do on the ground, or indeed sat on an airliner in level, unaccellerating flight.

By definition, weight is a measure of force (most commonly referenced to gravity) acting upon a body .  You don't have to have acceleration to have a force acting upon a body.  Do you feel weightless when you are standing still? No.  Weightlessness is simply a sensation.  Acceleration causes you to feel more weight not less.  That's why they call it "feeling G's" when you accelerate.  A parachutists feels weight at terminal velocity because of the wind resistance exerted on his body not because of the fact that his velocity has stabilised.
Distance from Sydney to Perth - We don't know.
There's a mirror floating in the sky - Yup.

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2021, 03:54:32 PM »
At this point, they won't feel weightless any more - they weigh precisely the same as they do on the ground, or indeed sat on an airliner in level, unaccellerating flight.

This is also untrue.  Their mass will be the same but not their weight.  If a parachutist were to take a scale with them and put it under their feet while they are at terminal velocity the scale would not measure the same weight as it does on the ground.  It's no different than a scale in water.  Wind resistance acts the same way as water's buoyant force.
Distance from Sydney to Perth - We don't know.
There's a mirror floating in the sky - Yup.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: About the conspiracy
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2021, 04:06:22 PM »
"Plenty of Govts and their agents tell nothing but the truth on many topics, though."
The question stands

In all manner of mundane, run-of-the-mill, pedestrian ways, Govts tell the truth;

Environmental; reporting studies of bird and animal populations, analysis of flood plains, of coastal erosion, of landslip, of river flows, ship and boat registration, vehicle licencing, town planning and building, etc. etc.

Population; overall numbers, splits by county, city, town and village; splits by age, by sex, etc. etc.

Schooling; overall numbers, splits by private and state-owned, numbers of pupils, splits by sex, etc. etc.

In criminal law, the presumption is of innocence until proven guilty. Guilt by association with another (allegedly) guilty party does not make a valid case. Even if you prove Govt lies about something, somewhere (balance of payments, unemployment stats, number of COVID cases or vaccinations), that is not an automatic proof of lies with regard to space exploration, global mapping, or any of our hot topics here.

Mistakes and errors of incompetence do not equate to "lies". 

Do you presume the Govt innocent until proven guilty?
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?