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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Another "Mass Shooting" thread
« Reply #80 on: April 17, 2018, 06:05:05 AM »
Also, alcohol is a steralization agent used in a lot of things like hand soap.  Also used in food.
Sooo... More uses than guns. :P

It kills over twice as many people every year over guns. Alcohol will only be used for sterilization. All other uses will be banned.
Yes, I see that.  Excessive drinking kills via long term health issues.
Know what also kills from excessive use?  Everything.
Pure oxygen over long periods of time is bad.
Too much water will drown you (either vis lungs or via blood thinning)
Food.  Hell, fatty or greasy foods do it faster.
IKEA book shelves will eventually crush you if you get too many.
Stupid?  Yes.  But that's humans: instant gratification over long term risks.


By contrast to the above: one bullet is considered excessive use for a human body and will almost always lead to death without treatment.


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cigarettes kill more than both of those.  We should ban them too.

Yes. We'll ban those too.

I'm good with that.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2018, 08:37:50 AM »
Which you aren't going to get with a sign that says "no guns."
You're right, you aren't.  Just like a sign that says "no parking" doesn't mean you won't get people parking there.  But the sign isn't there to stop everyone, the sign is there to tell you "it's not allowed and if we find out, you will be punished."

What good does that do when someone commits a mass shooting?

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They don't need to be.


Yeah... they kinda do.  Police protect civillians from those who break the law.  They don't even punish law breakers, they just stop them.  The judges and courts punish them.  So when you say "Teacher, your job is to stop students from breaking the law but only when it comes to murder" well... it's still "stop law breakers" thus, cops.
And on top of grading papers, learning the new curriculum (if your state changed shit) and managing 30+ students.... you have to run into an active shooting situation and hope you hit the right person who is likely gonna fire back.

Which if the teacher is willing and passionate about defending himself and his class, wouldn't be that much of a load.
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I beg to differ. Most "shooting unarmed people" incidents are justified. But leaving that aside, there really isn't much question when you hear multiple shots being fired whether or not you should shoot.

Right.
Like when cops shot an 11 year old who had a toy.
If you're talking about Tamir Rice, for one his airgun was indistinguishable from a real gun and he was pointing it at people. For another, As the officers approached Rice,  Rice made a quick draw motion.
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Or the most recent, cops shot a man who had a cell phone in his hand. (shot him like 20 times) then stood around for 10-20 min. demanding he show his hands cause they couldn't see it over the tall grass and were too chicken shit to walk up to him.

The guy pointed the phone as if it was a firearm. As for why they didn't approach, you can still shoot while lying down.

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Most cops go through their entire careers without ever shooting someone yet you want only them to respond in an active shooter incident?

I'll take a guy who literally signed up for the job to shoot others if needed over a guy who signed up to teach math.  Different mindset.
Not really if the math teacher carries for most of his adult life.

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  The math teacher didn't go into teaching because he wants to save people, stop criminals, and do a dangerous job.  He went in to help students learn, and become better.  Or because they like summer break.  Whatever the reason, I can assure you: The reasons to become a teacher are not the same as the reasons to become a police officer. 

However some teachers possess the fortitude of a seasoned officer and I advocate those with the fortitude should be allowed to carry.


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Clearing tactics and moving as a group isn't really that hard to learn. If suppose the shooter shoots one of the armed teachers, then the other teachers who are armed will be alerted and hold in place that gives him the best ambush angle. Also I don't want to force anyone to carry. If they want to then they should be able. If you already want to be armed then you already have the mindset of learning how to defend yourself and your students.


1. "group" tactics and moving requires coordination.  Mr. Stammens is in room 201 but Mr. Gaze is in the gym, on the other side of the building.  How the hell are they going to coordinate? And who in their right god damn mind is gonna leave their students in a room alone?

That's why they offer active shooter training for civilians.
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2. If you don't force, you can't guarentee "group" tactics.

If not moving as a group, then barricading the room you're in.
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3. What's the difference between a teacher with a gun, looking for the shooter and a shooter with a gun?  Nothing.  Absolultely nothing.  And if you think shooting an unarmed guy because he might have been holding a gun is justifiable, imagine what shooting an armed teacher with his gun out is gonna look like.

Which again, this can be mitigated by training and having familiarity on who are the teachers who are armed.

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Again, it's far better than what happened in Parkland. And there are active shooter courses for civilians available.

Yes.  Or we can just station an officer in each school.  Done.  No need for teachers, who TEACH, to go on a hunt for an active shooter.  The parkland guy never went in.  He was either afraid or got the wrong info.  And he KNEW he might have to get shot at one day.  He had the training.  Why would a teacher be better than a police officer?

The coach you sacrificed his life had a CCW but couldn't carry it and he was far better than any of the deputies that responded.
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They actually are already. We have lesd mass shootings now than what we had 20 years ago.

>_>
20 years ago was 1998.
Hold on, let me pull up the mass shootings in 1998.
(via wikipedia)
1998 - 4 (total)
2018 - 3 (so far)

1999 - 6
2017 - 18


Feel free to show me some other data because you reeally need to back up your claim.

I believe I've answered this one.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2018, 11:09:22 AM »
You're right, you aren't.  Just like a sign that says "no parking" doesn't mean you won't get people parking there.  But the sign isn't there to stop everyone, the sign is there to tell you "it's not allowed and if we find out, you will be punished."

What good does that do when someone commits a mass shooting?

Probably the same as "Drug Free Zone."  Imagine if teachers could bring pot or alcohol into school.

Let me put it another way.  Without that sign, anyone can walk in with a gun strapped to their hip with no fear of being told they can't.  Which means every single one of them could start opening fire at any time.  But you can't stop them from entering.  Nope.  Gotta open that door for them.  So instead of having at least a reason to stop someone from entering with a gun, you gotta wait until they start shooting before you call the cops.  Like if I saw someone, carrying a gun, walk from the parking lot of my old school I'd be able to call the cops right away.  Without that gun free sign, I'd have to wait until they start shooting.  Also, it forces the shooter to conceal their gun before entering, which limits the guns they can carry.


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Which if the teacher is willing and passionate about defending himself and his class, wouldn't be that much of a load.
A lot of teachers are willing and passionate about protecting their students.  In fact, even in the parkland school shooting, the policies of "locking the door and hiding in a corner" worked super well.  The people who get shot now are those in the hall ways.  So what you're saying is we should give teachers guns so they can abandon their students and run off in the halls to find a shooter that could be another teacher or parent they know?

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Right.
Like when cops shot an 11 year old who had a toy.
If you're talking about Tamir Rice, for one his airgun was indistinguishable from a real gun and he was pointing it at people. For another, As the officers approached Rice,  Rice made a quick draw motion.

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The guy pointed the phone as if it was a firearm. As for why they didn't approach, you can still shoot while lying down.

These kinda prove my point.
1. Shooting a kid is never a good option.  I don't care if he does have a real gun with real bullets, you tackle him and hope you don't die when he fires. 

2. Cops must be in a state of hyper vigilance at all times on the job.  Each of these cases illustrate that no matter how much training you have, you're gotta shoot whoever you think can shoot you back.  So every single CCW teacher is now a target and cops WILL shoot first.  They're trained to.  Shoot first, figure out if they were innocent later.

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Not really if the math teacher carries for most of his adult life.
Still take the cop. 

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However some teachers possess the fortitude of a seasoned officer and I advocate those with the fortitude should be allowed to carry.
Again, fortitude is not the issue.  I've no doubt many CCW teachers could handle a gun.  My issue is that they shouldn't have to in a school, with an active shooter, while police are gonna come in.  It adds more guns to a situation that's already chaotic.


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That's why they offer active shooter training for civilians.
I've seen those.
Rubbish.  The video simulator is better but even so, it's a bunch of stand up targets in a plywood covered area.  It lacks the other students, police, a moving shooter, etc...


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If not moving as a group, then barricading the room you're in.
Which is what they do now.  And it's really effective.  The parkland kids who died?  Died cause they were not in the classroom (due to a fire alarm being pulled if I recall correctly).


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Which again, this can be mitigated by training and having familiarity on who are the teachers who are armed.
Yeah... sure... >_>
1. A teacher could be the shooter.
2. A student could be the shooter.
3. A police officer is familiar with a phone yet as you just told me, a quick motion, pointing something towards them, etc... causes the officer to shoot.  They have to decide to shoot or not in the span of a few hundred miliseconds.  So no, even if they memorized the name and faces of every armed teacher in the school, they're still gonna shoot.  It's how they're trained.  "See what could be gun or person going for a gun - shoot."  You figure out if they were gonna shoot at you after that.  That's how it is if you want to live.  It sucks.  It's stupid.  I think they should choose to die before killing but that's me.

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The coach you sacrificed his life had a CCW but couldn't carry it and he was far better than any of the deputies that responded.
Yep.  He was brave.  Still doesn't stop my point though: Cops would have shot him.


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I believe I've answered this one.
Can you point out where?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #83 on: April 23, 2018, 05:27:55 PM »
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #84 on: April 23, 2018, 11:31:14 PM »
A bad guy who wasn't allowed to access or own guns anyway. Go figure, right?

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Offline Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2018, 03:54:44 AM »
You're right, you aren't.  Just like a sign that says "no parking" doesn't mean you won't get people parking there.  But the sign isn't there to stop everyone, the sign is there to tell you "it's not allowed and if we find out, you will be punished."

What good does that do when someone commits a mass shooting?

Probably the same as "Drug Free Zone."  Imagine if teachers could bring pot or alcohol into school.

Let me put it another way.  Without that sign, anyone can walk in with a gun strapped to their hip with no fear of being told they can't.  Which means every single one of them could start opening fire at any time.  But you can't stop them from entering.  Nope.  Gotta open that door for them.  So instead of having at least a reason to stop someone from entering with a gun, you gotta wait until they start shooting before you call the cops.  Like if I saw someone, carrying a gun, walk from the parking lot of my old school I'd be able to call the cops right away.  Without that gun free sign, I'd have to wait until they start shooting.  Also, it forces the shooter to conceal their gun before entering, which limits the guns they can carry.
Most criminals don't open carry anywhere and rifles are easy to spot. If a criminal wants to carry conceal there's nothing stopping him.
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Which if the teacher is willing and passionate about defending himself and his class, wouldn't be that much of a load.
A lot of teachers are willing and passionate about protecting their students.  In fact, even in the parkland school shooting, the policies of "locking the door and hiding in a corner" worked super well.  The people who get shot now are those in the hall ways.  So what you're saying is we should give teachers guns so they can abandon their students and run off in the halls to find a shooter that could be another teacher or parent they know?

If not going to the threat then certainly barricading themselves and covering the door.
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Right.
Like when cops shot an 11 year old who had a toy.
If you're talking about Tamir Rice, for one his airgun was indistinguishable from a real gun and he was pointing it at people. For another, As the officers approached Rice,  Rice made a quick draw motion.

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The guy pointed the phone as if it was a firearm. As for why they didn't approach, you can still shoot while lying down.

These kinda prove my point.
1. Shooting a kid is never a good option.  I don't care if he does have a real gun with real bullets, you tackle him and hope you don't die when he fires. 

That's simply unrealistic. A person with a gun pointing it at people is a lethal threat and should be treated as such.
[/quote]
2. Cops must be in a state of hyper vigilance at all times on the job.  Each of these cases illustrate that no matter how much training you have, you're gotta shoot whoever you think can shoot you back.  So every single CCW teacher is now a target and cops WILL shoot first.  They're trained to.  Shoot first, figure out if they were innocent later.[/quote]

If that be the case then how come there aren't many cases of off duty cops being shot while responding to an armed subject?
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Not really if the math teacher carries for most of his adult life.
Still take the cop. 

And that's fine. However If the school or department can't afford to assign a cop or if the cop was like the deputy at Parkland then allow staff to be armed as a last resort defense.
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However some teachers possess the fortitude of a seasoned officer and I advocate those with the fortitude should be allowed to carry.
Again, fortitude is not the issue.  I've no doubt many CCW teachers could handle a gun.  My issue is that they shouldn't have to in a school, with an active shooter, while police are gonna come in.  It adds more guns to a situation that's already chaotic.

If they want to, they should be allowed to.
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That's why they offer active shooter training for civilians.
I've seen those.
Rubbish.  The video simulator is better but even so, it's a bunch of stand up targets in a plywood covered area.  It lacks the other students, police, a moving shooter, etc...

Hate to break it to you, but most police training dealing with active shooter is no better. When I went through the academy they had the simulator and then something akin to paintball as our training.

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If not moving as a group, then barricading the room you're in.
Which is what they do now.  And it's really effective.  The parkland kids who died?  Died cause they were not in the classroom (due to a fire alarm being pulled if I recall correctly).

Yet some died trying to prevent the shooter from entering some classrooms.

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Which again, this can be mitigated by training and having familiarity on who are the teachers who are armed.
Yeah... sure... >_>
1. A teacher could be the shooter.
2. A student could be the shooter.
3. A police officer is familiar with a phone yet as you just told me, a quick motion, pointing something towards them, etc... causes the officer to shoot.  They have to decide to shoot or not in the span of a few hundred miliseconds.  So no, even if they memorized the name and faces of every armed teacher in the school, they're still gonna shoot.  It's how they're trained.  "See what could be gun or person going for a gun - shoot."  You figure out if they were gonna shoot at you after that.  That's how it is if you want to live.  It sucks.  It's stupid.  I think they should choose to die before killing but that's me.

Which again, if that be the case then how come we don't hear of police shooting off duty cops responding to the threat?

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The coach you sacrificed his life had a CCW but couldn't carry it and he was far better than any of the deputies that responded.
Yep.  He was brave.  Still doesn't stop my point though: Cops would have shot him.

Your evidence? By the time police responded, the threat would've already been taken care of.

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I believe I've answered this one.
Can you point out where?

It was a post in response to you. I beleive it was in the last page.
Isaiah 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth"

Scripture, science, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2018, 03:28:59 PM »
Meanwhile in Canada, a perpetrator who had just finished running over 20 or so people was taken down without a shot being fired.

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Offline Dr David Thork

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2018, 05:25:53 PM »
Meanwhile in the UK, a shopkeeper fought off 3 armed robbers with some chilli powder.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-43886058/shopkeeper-fights-off-armed-robbers-with-chilli-powder
Rate this post.      👍 6     👎 1

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2018, 07:42:14 PM »
Meanwhile in Canada, a perpetrator who had just finished running over 20 or so people was taken down without a shot being fired.

Impressive as the cop, puts his gun away and pulls his batton, in Luke-world he would have been dead, Americans seem to have forgotten the protect and serve mantra, in favour of look after number one.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #89 on: April 25, 2018, 01:01:24 PM »
Meanwhile in Canada, a perpetrator who had just finished running over 20 or so people was taken down without a shot being fired.
But one Good Guy With a Gun(tm) could have popped a cap right in his head, resulting in fewer casualties.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #90 on: April 25, 2018, 02:24:42 PM »
Meanwhile in Canada, a perpetrator who had just finished running over 20 or so people was taken down without a shot being fired.

Impressive as the cop, puts his gun away and pulls his batton, in Luke-world he would have been dead, Americans seem to have forgotten the protect and serve mantra, in favour of look after number one.

Now instead of getting the Instant Death Penalty he'll be stuck in a concrete room wasting tax payer dollars. Definitely the better outcome for everyone, haha. All thanks to "if you kill your enemies, they win" Trudeau.

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Offline Cain

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #91 on: April 25, 2018, 02:56:57 PM »
"if you kill your enemies, they win" Trudeau.
Don't you dare insult Tredeau again.
You just made my list, buddy.  >:(
this world does not have room for another mind as intelligent as yours.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #92 on: April 25, 2018, 03:25:54 PM »
Meanwhile in Canada, a perpetrator who had just finished running over 20 or so people was taken down without a shot being fired.

Impressive as the cop, puts his gun away and pulls his batton, in Luke-world he would have been dead, Americans seem to have forgotten the protect and serve mantra, in favour of look after number one.

Now instead of getting the Instant Death Penalty he'll be stuck in a concrete room wasting tax payer dollars. Definitely the better outcome for everyone, haha. All thanks to "if you kill your enemies, they win" Trudeau.
To be fair:
You suffer longer in prison.  And America is all about suffering.  So which is better for society?  A quick, easy death for a criminal, or knowing he'll rot and suffer for decades, longing for death as he's raped over and over again by those bigger than him?
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Rama Set

Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #93 on: April 25, 2018, 03:31:25 PM »
Meanwhile in Canada, a perpetrator who had just finished running over 20 or so people was taken down without a shot being fired.

Impressive as the cop, puts his gun away and pulls his batton, in Luke-world he would have been dead, Americans seem to have forgotten the protect and serve mantra, in favour of look after number one.

Now instead of getting the Instant Death Penalty he'll be stuck in a concrete room wasting tax payer dollars. Definitely the better outcome for everyone, haha. All thanks to "if you kill your enemies, they win" Trudeau.

Maybe he has mental health issues and needs help.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #94 on: April 25, 2018, 05:31:17 PM »
Meanwhile in Canada, a perpetrator who had just finished running over 20 or so people was taken down without a shot being fired.

Impressive as the cop, puts his gun away and pulls his batton, in Luke-world he would have been dead, Americans seem to have forgotten the protect and serve mantra, in favour of look after number one.

Now instead of getting the Instant Death Penalty he'll be stuck in a concrete room wasting tax payer dollars. Definitely the better outcome for everyone, haha. All thanks to "if you kill your enemies, they win" Trudeau.
To be fair:
You suffer longer in prison.  And America is all about suffering.  So which is better for society?  A quick, easy death for a criminal, or knowing he'll rot and suffer for decades, longing for death as he's raped over and over again by those bigger than him?

Why do I care about someone suffering in what is essentially just a longer form of the death penalty? I've never understood the "we have to punish them" approach to crime. We just have to remove them from society, punishing them is meaningless. Banning them from the universe seems like a cheaper and easier punishment than having them waste away in some cell for years.

Maybe he has mental health issues and needs help.

His mental health issues are apparently a direct result of "tfw no gf" so unless you plan on issuing him a state-sponsored girlfriend I think he's better off in the ground where at least the amount of damage he can still do to anyone around him is zero.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #95 on: April 25, 2018, 06:47:11 PM »
Why do I care about someone suffering in what is essentially just a longer form of the death penalty? I've never understood the "we have to punish them" approach to crime. We just have to remove them from society, punishing them is meaningless. Banning them from the universe seems like a cheaper and easier punishment than having them waste away in some cell for years.
US Society seems to prefer suffereage over reform.  They like the idea of people suffering, of hurting because they hurt someone else.  It's not logical, it's vengeful.

[qote]
Maybe he has mental health issues and needs help.

His mental health issues are apparently a direct result of "tfw no gf" so unless you plan on issuing him a state-sponsored girlfriend I think he's better off in the ground where at least the amount of damage he can still do to anyone around him is zero.

Maybe.  Or he had other issues.  The "I've no GF so I'm angry as fuck" does happen but you also have "I'm angry as fuck and murder people cause I have a giant fucking tumor in my brain and no one noticed". or "I'm a violent asshole cause I've been hit in the head so many times that my brain is missing large pieces from it."
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #96 on: May 02, 2018, 02:14:21 AM »
Meanwhile in Canada, a perpetrator who had just finished running over 20 or so people was taken down without a shot being fired.

Impressive as the cop, puts his gun away and pulls his batton, in Luke-world he would have been dead, Americans seem to have forgotten the protect and serve mantra, in favour of look after number one.

Now instead of getting the Instant Death Penalty he'll be stuck in a concrete room wasting tax payer dollars. Definitely the better outcome for everyone, haha. All thanks to "if you kill your enemies, they win" Trudeau.

Maybe he has mental health issues and needs help.

You should forfeit your right to everything but a clean death if you kill 20 people on purpose.

Rama Set

Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #97 on: May 02, 2018, 11:09:23 AM »
Including soldiers?

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #98 on: May 02, 2018, 04:05:41 PM »
Including soldiers?

No. Your country is ordering you to kill. It would be pretty fucked up if it then charged you as a criminal for that order.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 04:07:39 PM by Hollocron »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #99 on: May 02, 2018, 04:29:36 PM »
Including soldiers?

No. Your country is ordering you to kill. It would be pretty fucked up if it then charged you as a criminal for that order.
What about cops?
Cops kill people intentionally.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.