[Wezzoid]

The issue of long haul southern flights has been contentious in that the numbers don't seem to work well with the standard azimuthal projection.

I have an idea for settling this once and for all, resulting in some very solid evidence either way. 2 methods:

1: A well known and trusted member of TFES tries to take the nonstop flight between Santiago and Sydney and journals everything faithfully; times, regular photos out the windows on both sides. This is expensive but the Society could chip in?

2: Find two trusted flatearth supporters to help, one in Santiago or who can get there, one in Sydney. Get Sydney to find the flight (if it is found to not even exist as some argue then the argument is won straight away) watch it take off and note it's tail numbers. Get him/her to contact Santiago just before the flight plan says it's going to land; if it doesn't, RE is in trouble.
Cheap fun day project for all involved!

[Rayzor]

Here is an example of the flat earth thinking on this topic.

This video in particular by Nina aka "Zetetic Flat Earth"  (  Restricted in some countries, If it doesn't come up on YT, it's also on Vimeo at https://vimeo.com/138874902 )

   

Start watching at 11:20 since it has specific flight time information is worth looking at further.

The video author has obviously never bought international tickets and doesn't understand the one free stop option.    This is where you buy a ticket from Johannesburg  to Sao Paulo,  and you can nominate a single stop over, which you get to choose from whatever options are available, in this case one of the options is to fly BA and spend a few days in London.

 
Why not read the lines above where it clearly says SAA offers a direct flight.  Or even notice the little inset map, which shows the flight route?



Instead of trying to find out why you would fly to London,  the video author with pre-conceived notions in mind starts a train of thought that is just plain stupid, suggesting that this is the round earth way to fly from Johannesburg to Sao Paulo  ..  WTF?



And then goes on to point out that the flat earth model using the Gleason map, makes more sense..  well no it doesn't  just goes to show how stupid the author is.



Here is the real flight path on Google Earth.



And here are the real flight arrival and departure times.



Sao Paulo is UTC-3:00 and Johannesburg is UTC+2:00 ,  so departs at 9:00PM UTC and arrives 5:25AM the following morning,  that's  8 hours 25 minutes flying time.

If I'm being generous I'm guessing the author of the video has made an honest mistake,  I can sympathize,  but it is so easy to check these sort of facts before going to commit to a video,  for that sake of the hundreds of gullible fools who will just accept it as being true and so the misinformation and the lies propagate.

[Tom Bishop]

Here is the real flight path on Google Earth.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/428x294q90/r/537/cZRP6S.png

Google Earth is hardly an authority on actual flight paths. Did the programmers of this application sit on these flights?

And here are the real flight arrival and departure times.



Sao Paulo is UTC-3:00 and Johannesburg is UTC+2:00 ,  so departs at 9:00PM UTC and arrives 5:25AM the following morning,  that's  8 hours 25 minutes flying time.

Actually, those are NOT real flight arrival and departure times. These are estimates for future flights, generated by a third party travel company.


Flights are very often delayed or rerouted. We were looking at some stats on the .org site and saw that over 1/4th of all worldwide flights are delayed.

[Rayzor]

Actually, those are NOT real flight arrival and departure times. These are estimates for future flights, generated by a third party travel company.

Actually,  if you take the trouble to go to the FIDS systems and look at the actual departure and arrival times,  they are mostly a reasonable match for the scheduled departure and arrivals.

As an example here is that SAA223 flight,  landed over 2 hours ago.    Departed GRU 18:54 scheduled 18:30   Arrived JNB 07:12 scheduled 07:10

[andruszkow]

Here is the real flight path on Google Earth.

https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/428x294q90/r/537/cZRP6S.png

Google Earth is hardly an authority on actual flight paths. Did the programmers of this application sit on these flights?

We know that Google Earth, Google Maps, and its ilk, merely plots a path between the two points you tell it to.

And here are the real flight arrival and departure times.



Sao Paulo is UTC-3:00 and Johannesburg is UTC+2:00 ,  so departs at 9:00PM UTC and arrives 5:25AM the following morning,  that's  8 hours 25 minutes flying time.

Actually, those are NOT "real" flight arrival and departure times. These are estimates for future flights, generated by a third party travel company based on the limited information they have.

Flights are very often delayed or rerouted. We were looking at some stats on the .org site and saw what over 1/4th of all worldwide flights are delayed.

How does that rule out the source he gave you? So, 3/4th of flights are not delayed, and among those, the flight mentioned can't be one of them?

[Tom Bishop]

How does that rule out the source he gave you? So, 3/4th of flights are not delayed, and among those, the flight mentioned can't be one of them?

The source was presented as "real flight arrival and departure times". This is untrue. It is a flight estimate by a third party company. This piece of evidence is totally invalid.

[Tom Bishop]

Actually, those are NOT real flight arrival and departure times. These are estimates for future flights, generated by a third party travel company.

Actually,  if you take the trouble to go to the FIDS systems and look at the actual departure and arrival times,  they are mostly a reasonable match for the scheduled departure and arrivals.

As an example here is that SAA223 flight,  landed over 2 hours ago.    Departed GRU 18:54 scheduled 18:30   Arrived JNB 07:12 scheduled 07:10

Good.

Now find a flight going the "long way" around the earth so we can tell how big the earth is and whether it matches up to your ball model.

[Christer Fuglesang]

Actually, those are NOT real flight arrival and departure times. These are estimates for future flights, generated by a third party travel company.

Actually,  if you take the trouble to go to the FIDS systems and look at the actual departure and arrival times,  they are mostly a reasonable match for the scheduled departure and arrivals.

As an example here is that SAA223 flight,  landed over 2 hours ago.    Departed GRU 18:54 scheduled 18:30   Arrived JNB 07:12 scheduled 07:10

Good.

Now find a flight going the "long way" around the earth so we can tell how big the earth is and whether it matches up to your ball model.

Dear Tom,

Not yet. Let's first summarize. We agree that the flight time is roughly 8:30h. Let's also agree on the average speed of the plane. What's your estimate of the planes cruise speed?

[Rayzor]

Now find a flight going the "long way" around the earth so we can tell how big the earth is and whether it matches up to your ball model.

Yep, it does.

The Google Earth great circle distances are a reasonable match for all the flight paths I checked,   flight times might vary more because of jet streams,  but nothing substantial.

Why not just admit that the popular flat earth map,  that people like "Zetetic Flat Earth" are using is wrong?
 
We all know a real flat earth map doesn't exist.  After 200 years,  you'd think someone might have advanced the cause.
 
PS.  Nina's crazy thought processes are yet another example of  the "Zetetic Method"

[Roundy]

Now find a flight going the "long way" around the earth so we can tell how big the earth is and whether it matches up to your ball model.

Yep, it does.

Oh that settles it.  "Go find a flight going the long way and see if it matches your model!"  You: "It does!"

Nice.  How can we possibly refute such strong evidence? 

[Rayzor]

Now find a flight going the "long way" around the earth so we can tell how big the earth is and whether it matches up to your ball model.

Yep, it does.

Oh that settles it.  "Go find a flight going the long way and see if it matches your model!"  You: "It does!"

Nice.  How can we possibly refute such strong evidence? 

You could refute it by showing me a flat earth map that works for the southern hemisphere.

[Rayzor]

You could refute it by showing me a flat earth map that works for the southern hemisphere.

Actually,  on further thought,  I'll amend that statement.

Since the globe map distances work correctly,  and further since it's impossible to map a globe directly to a flat surface without distortion, then it follows that it is logically impossible to produce a flat earth map that measures distances correctly.   So a flat earth map is impossible.

Ergo the earth is not flat. 

On the other hand,  if the earth really was flat, then producing a two dimensional map of the whole earth with correct distances would be trivial,  at least compared to a globe.

[Munky]

You could refute it by showing me a flat earth map that works for the southern hemisphere.

On the other hand,  if the earth really was flat, then producing a two dimensional map of the whole earth with correct distances would be trivial,  at least compared to a globe.

Actually wouldn't it be easier to get proper distances and better measurements if the earth was indeed flat? Unless I misunderstand what you meant.

It appears that most of the flat maps that we have are projections from a globe map. At least in the past.

I like these types of open discussions. It makes my blood pump in the mornings. Haha

[Benjired]

You could refute it by showing me a flat earth map that works for the southern hemisphere.

On the other hand,  if the earth really was flat, then producing a two dimensional map of the whole earth with correct distances would be trivial,  at least compared to a globe.

Actually wouldn't it be easier to get proper distances and better measurements if the earth was indeed flat? Unless I misunderstand what you meant.

It appears that most of the flat maps that we have are projections from a globe map. At least in the past.

I like these types of open discussions. It makes my blood pump in the mornings. Haha

This guy started a series where he tried to make an accurate flat Earth map.  I must applaud him for really trying to make sense of it and actually figure it out for himself.  Watch all 5 videos. 

[Munky]

This guy started a series where he tried to make an accurate flat Earth map.  I must applaud him for really trying to make sense of it and actually figure it out for himself.  Watch all 5 videos.
[/quote]

I highly doubt he will be able to make this map as he is describing. In his own admission it is impossible to make some of the trips in the time/distances he has already described in some of the existing flat earth models.
It is already past New Years and still no update. I guess he has realized by now that it is impossible to make the distances between flight routes work on a flat earth model.
Maybe he "debunked" his own idealisms lol.

[Tom Bishop]

This is all very natural and is part of the Flat Earth proponent's evolution to the more advanced bi-polar models of the earth.

The reason for the misconception with the classic mono-pole model is because FET's foundational work, Earth Not a Globe, was written at a time before the south pole was discovered. This is described in The Sea-Earth Globe and its Monstrous Hypothetical Motions (Zetetes, 1918) at around page 30.

[andruszkow]

This is all very natural and is part of the Flat Earth proponent's evolution to the more advanced bi-polar models of the earth.

The reason for the misconception with the classic mono-pole model is because FET's foundational work, Earth Not a Globe, was written at a time before the south pole was discovered. This is described in The Sea-Earth Globe and its Monstrous Hypothetical Motions (Zetetes, 1918) at around page 30.

Question: Do you actually believe any of this yourself? Honestly?

How can you ever prove that you're not just trolling?

[Munky]

This is all very natural and is part of the Flat Earth proponent's evolution to the more advanced bi-polar models of the earth.

The reason for the misconception with the classic mono-pole model is because FET's foundational work, Earth Not a Globe, was written at a time before the south pole was discovered. This is described in The Sea-Earth Globe and its Monstrous Hypothetical Motions (Zetetes, 1918) at around page 30.

What is natural? that distances do not make any sense on a flat earth map? What does the south pole not being discovered have anything to do with the map that he is trying to create?

Why do you come here?

[Tom Bishop]

I linked a source. You should read it before engaging me on the subject.

[Munky]

Sorry I just dont understand your point.