[jroa]

Don't forget sudo when you do that. 

[Ghost of V]

sudo apt-get attackclone the grit repo pushmerge, then rubygem the lymphnode js shawarma module


 

[Lord Dave]

I don't think it's fair to call me a noob.
I got it to work.
I ran a few games on steam.

My problem is that most games I play are only optimized for Windows and not Linux.  And the open source drivers for Linux (which are stable) are not optimized as well as the proprietary drivers.  But the proprietary drivers are not as stable for the games.

[Rushy]

Why, because Lord Dave is a noob and software developers aren't perfect?

No, I mean the way he fixed the error in the first place. Linux gaming will only win against Windows gaming if it is easier. Security, cost, and speed are great, and Linux can probably deliver all three to the gaming world, but usability is the #1 thing that increases adoption. If I can't download Steam on Linux, double click an executable, and have it just work, then I won't use it on Linux, and neither will millions of other gamers. What Valve is trying to do is admirable, but until they really get their shit together no one is going to touch their SteamOS or Linux in general. This will ultimately kill Steam on Linux. Valve will either make it easier or abandon the project. This all started because of Gabe's pissing contest with Microsoft and I'm pretty sure it'll end just as quickly.

Linux isn't used by many people the same reason Bitcoin isn't used by many people. It's hard as shit to use and anyone who doesn't actually need the functions it provides would never use it.

[xasop]

I don't think it's fair to call me a noob.
I got it to work.
I ran a few games on steam.

The way in which you got it to work has a small chance of introducing malware on your system, unless you verified that the RPM was signed by a trusted key first. It's also likely to break if you ever upgrade your system.

My problem is that most games I play are only optimized for Windows and not Linux.  And the open source drivers for Linux (which are stable) are not optimized as well as the proprietary drivers.  But the proprietary drivers are not as stable for the games.

Do you have a source for any of this information?

If I can't download Steam on Linux, double click an executable, and have it just work, then I won't use it on Linux, and neither will millions of other gamers.

But you can do that. Lorddave was trying to do so on a release unsupported by Steam. Your argument is kind of like saying that Windows isn't usable because I can't download and run a Windows 8-only program on Windows XP.

[Pete Svarrior]

The big issue here is: customers don't give a crap if it's your fault or not. If what they're trying to do doesn't work, they'll just try something else. And in case of your average computer user, that something else won't be a different Linux distro. It'll be ¬Linux.

[xasop]

The big issue here is: customers don't give a crap if it's your fault or not. If what they're trying to do doesn't work, they'll just try something else. And in case of your average computer user, that something else won't be a different Linux distro. It'll be ¬Linux.

This is probably why Valve are making SteamOS, so that the average computer user has minimal thinking required.

[Pete Svarrior]

This is probably why Valve are making SteamOS, so that the average computer user has minimal thinking required.

Yeah, if that works out, it might push Linux forward quite significantly among non-technical users.

[fappenhosen]

Debian is not stable.

But of course it is, you just need to attackclone the grit repo pushmerge, then rubygem the lymphnode js shawarma module – and presto!

$  attackclone the grit repo pushmerge && rubygem the lymphnode js shawarma module
attackclone: command not found

Please help. I've tried rebooting twice.

[Lord Dave]

Debian is not stable.

But of course it is, you just need to attackclone the grit repo pushmerge, then rubygem the lymphnode js shawarma module – and presto!

$  attackclone the grit repo pushmerge && rubygem the lymphnode js shawarma module
attackclone: command not found

Please help. I've tried rebooting twice.

Sudo apt-get install attackclone

[fappenhosen]

$ Sudo apt-get install attackclone
No command 'Sudo' found, did you mean:
 Command 'sudo' from package 'sudo-ldap' (universe)
 Command 'sudo' from package 'sudo' (main)
 Command 'udo' from package 'udo' (universe)
Sudo: command not found

[Lord Dave]

$ Sudo apt-get install attackclone
No command 'Sudo' found, did you mean:
 Command 'sudo' from package 'sudo-ldap' (universe)
 Command 'sudo' from package 'sudo' (main)
 Command 'udo' from package 'udo' (universe)
Sudo: command not found

If you don't have sudo, you have bigger issues.

[xasop]

$ Sudo apt-get install attackclone
No command 'Sudo' found, did you mean:
 Command 'sudo' from package 'sudo-ldap' (universe)
 Command 'sudo' from package 'sudo' (main)
 Command 'udo' from package 'udo' (universe)
Sudo: command not found

If you don't have sudo, you have bigger issues.

He probably does have sudo.

Also, I don't see why anyone makes a big deal of whether Linux becomes a major gaming platform among existing Windows users. I know plenty of Linux users who keep a Windows desktop around for the sole reason that they like to play games. When enough games begin supporting Linux (and it is a when and not an if, given the current rate of adoption), they will be glad to be rid of Windows.

Couple the above with the fact that many Linux users are technical enough to fix bugs in the underlying software stack (such as the one I linked on the last page) and the fact that Linux is open-source, and you have an immensely powerful platform for Valve to create a console supported in part by volunteers they don't have to pay. What sane for-profit company wouldn't jump at the chance? It seems to me that Valve are in agreement with me on this one.

If Windows remains the dominant PC gaming platform but Valve continue to support Linux because they want to make a console out of it, who really cares? I sure as hell don't; I can keep using the superior features of Linux and play all my games without having to reboot into Windows. It doesn't matter to me if other people prefer to stick with Windows.

Linux is successful in every way that matters: it's useful to the people who use it in a way that most operating systems could never be. People who complain about its usability either have a different use case that it doesn't fit, or aren't giving it a fair chance; and people who continually spread hype about this year being "the year of Linux on the desktop" seem to be missing the fact that Linux has been usable on the desktop for years.

On behalf of Linux users everywhere: We don't care if you don't like it; we do.

[Lord Dave]

The two biggest hurdles that need to be dealt with for Linux gaming are
1. Better opengl drivers (proprietary)
This has already been done by valve.  Thanks valve!

2. Getting game makers to use opengl instead of direct x.
This is the part that will require a ton of work.  Microsoft owns the rendering stages and it'll take a lot of effort for ooengl to catch up.

[xasop]

1. Better opengl drivers (proprietary)
This has already been done by valve.  Thanks valve!

Why do they need to be proprietary, and how has Valve been able to have any influence at all on what NVIDIA and AMD are putting into their drivers?

[fappenhosen]

you have an immensely powerful platform for Valve to create a console supported in part by volunteers they don't have to pay.

Make Money By Not Paying People. Ah the ethics of open source.

There's enough companies already releasing shit games safe in the knowledge that they're getting paid in return for free beta testing. I'm not sure how I feel if those beta testers get promoted into coders.

[Lord Dave]

1. Better opengl drivers (proprietary)
This has already been done by valve.  Thanks valve!

Why do they need to be proprietary, and how has Valve been able to have any influence at all on what NVIDIA and AMD are putting into their drivers?

1. Because open source drivers are written by people without direct access to the card's firmware and that makes things oh so much nicer.

2. Valve has a fair bit of games and a lot of pull as a major software distribution service.  Its not unreasonable to see them convincing both AMD and NVidia to optimize their opengl drivers.  Especially when they throw around words like "half life 3".

[xasop]

Make Money By Not Paying People. Ah the ethics of open source.

They're volunteers. If they didn't want to be writing code for free, they wouldn't be.

There's enough companies already releasing shit games safe in the knowledge that they're getting paid in return for free beta testing. I'm not sure how I feel if those beta testers get promoted into coders.

They're not getting promoted; open-source developers are already writing code for free. Make your proprietary games available for that platform, and you expose new bugs (such as the one I fixed recently). On Windows, you have to wait for Microsoft to do something about OS bugs, which they will only do if they have some financial incentive. On Linux, anyone can get the source and fix it, and someone will usually do so for free.

I know which platform I'd rather target.

1. Because open source drivers are written by people without direct access to the card's firmware and that makes things oh so much nicer.

This isn't a problem in the slightest if your card has a well-documented interface; unlike certain vendors which start with an "N", end with an "A" and have "VIDI" somewhere in the middle, which is why nouveau has precisely this problem and why I recommend AMD to people building Linux computers.

Have you actually tried the open-source AMD (or any other manufacturer that makes their hardware supportable) driver, or are you making the assumption that it's bad?

2. Valve has a fair bit of games and a lot of pull as a major software distribution service.  Its not unreasonable to see them convincing both AMD and NVidia to optimize their opengl drivers.  Especially when they throw around words like "half life 3".

Fair enough.

[fappenhosen]

open-source developers are already writing code for free. ...On Linux, anyone can get the source and fix it, and someone will usually do so for free.

You're confusing open source developers with players  of open source games / users of an open source platform.

At the moment open source is supported by developers for free largely because the company fixing the bugs has some other way of making money from the open source platform.

For example an IT company deploys Ubuntu in its client companies; fixes bugs in Nautilus because they make money from a client that has a file browser that doesn't die. Everyone wins, and takes home a pay packet.

Sure there'll be the occasional hobbyists but they're not really what drives open source development. In my opinion.

So what's the model really?

Valve will take a cut of games they sell via SteamOS.

Paid developers will do a significant part of the work on SteamOS. They will be paid because they are games developers who sell games on SteamOS.

Game players will buy games on SteamOS.

A very small fraction of those game players will have the wit and know-how to make changes to source code. This is a volunteer coder.

[Lord Dave]

1. Because open source drivers are written by people without direct access to the card's firmware and that makes things oh so much nicer.

This isn't a problem in the slightest if your card has a well-documented interface; unlike certain vendors which start with an "N", end with an "A" and have "VIDI" somewhere in the middle, which is why nouveau has precisely this problem and why I recommend AMD to people building Linux computers.

Have you actually tried the open-source AMD (or any other manufacturer that makes their hardware supportable) driver, or are you making the assumption that it's bad?

I have an AMD.  (Hell my whole system is as AMD as possible)
I tried both.

Here's my experience:
The proprietary driver (legacy) was a pain to install.  Once in I found that steam games were visually faster but produced graphical glitches (flashing shadows, missing renders, etc..).
The open source drivers worked without glitches but produced noticeably visually slower rendering.  I think it was a 15fps difference. 

This was done in a supported edition of Debian, BTW. 
Card: ati radeon 4890 HD 1 GB gddr

My guess is that my card, being a legacy card, wasn't given the optimization and fix that the other, newer cards got with the proprietary driver.  Hence the instability.

But its not a big deal.  I gave up my Linux drive for my wife so I don't have a spare drive to reinstall Linux on anyway.