[spoonbow]

Lesson #3
While standing on the tundra, you draw back on a syringe. You have just created a vacuum in the barrel of the syringe. Does the super-cold air fill the barrel, or is the vacuum maintained?

[Scroogie]

The scenario exemplifies that temperature does matter. At absolute zero the atoms do not, and cannot, excite. Therefore the arguments posted here that "temperature does not matter" are bunk. The colder it gets, the slower atoms excite. It can get so cold that the atoms have a hard time equalizing between environments, as illustrated by the balloon video on the previous page.

You do not seem to have an issue with the hypothetical absolute-zero-earth-rim thought experiment, except to say that true absolute zero has not been seen yet.

You do not have an issue with the fact that low temperature = slower excitement.

What do you have an issue with?

Would the atoms leak off of an absolute zero earth rim or not? If the rim was very near absolute zero, what would change? Is it that at absolute zero the atoms wouldn't leak off, but at very near absolute zero the atmosphere would suddenly explode off of the earth like a jet stream?

Explain for us.

You're apparently proposing a situation in which a temperature of absolute zero is reached somewhere in the outer reaches of the hypothetical region beyond the ice wall, a region which we'll label "B". You propose that its temperature, and necessarily its pressure, is lower than that experienced on our side of the ice wall where the atmosphere is (indirectly) heated by the sun, a region which we'll label "A", resulting in a pressure gradient from A to B. Hence, the atmosphere will begin to flow from A to B. As it does it carries heat with it, warming the surroundings in the region of B. That heat will eventually radiate off into space, preventing B from ever reaching the temperature of A, hence temperature and pressure gradients will remain and the condition will remain stable, with air continually moving from A to B. Incidentally, due to the heat introduced by the ingress of air from A, temperatures approaching absolute zero would not be achievable, either.

We know A to be finite in size. It you were to, for example, postulate B to be infinite in size, or even similar in size to A, then you have a problem asserting that region B will fill up with air at a very cold temperature so that no more of the atmosphere could then migrate to this region. Why? Because there is a finite amount of atmosphere to fill that volume. If the volume of region B is of any appreciable size you would run out of air with which to fill it long before the pressure became great enough to prevent further migration of air into region B.

[Scroogie]

If warm air rushed into the icy tundras of the earth to fill the void it would also get cold and stop moving. It would just result in an accumulation of cold, heavy, non-exited, air, which is in fact what exists in places like Antarctica. The air is heavier there. At some point the columns of air would be so dense with the slow cold atoms that the excited hot atoms could not rush outwards from the sun to fill it to equalize the surrounding area.

With lower temperatures outwards into the tundra we would see slower movement of those atoms, and if the atoms are moving very slow in very low temperatures, it is not a given that they would rapidly explode off of an edge leading into the vacuum of space.

In order to quickly move or "rapidly explode" from such a state of extremely low temperature that inhibits its movement, those atoms, stopped in their tracks by temperature, would need to be moving into a higher temperature environment; and lacking any heat sources near the hypothetical edge of the earth, there is no necessitating conclusion that there is any mechanism for those atoms to move anywhere.

Since we agree that low temperature = lack of movement, you will need to describe why a sudden opening into a vacuum in such an environment would cause the atoms to rapidly explode into it.

I noticed your liberal use of hyperbole in the above quoted passage:

Atmosphere "rapidly exploding" into space...
Has someone suggested this mechanism? Exploding, as opposed to simply leaking or floating off into space? If so, I missed it.

"stopped in their tracks by temperature"...
They will get "stopped in their tracks" should they actually reach absolute zero. I don't believe you've demonstrated that to be the case.

"we agree that low temperature = lack of movement"
I'm quite sure that no one agreed with that statement. Low temperature = less movement. Absolute zero = lack of movement. There's a crucial difference there.

[StinkyOne]

Yes, they do require excitement. The atoms in a balloon are excited and are attempting to reach an equilibrium with the excitement of the outside environment.

No, they don't. You can move atoms by hitting them with other atoms, you can move them with electromagnetic fields. Further, the balloon is applying additional force from elasticity.

Lack of temperature = less excitement. Do you deny this?

No, not at all. Lower energy levels = lower temps.

The lower temperature of the liquid nitrogen caused the atoms in the balloons to be less excited. Do you deny this?

No.

Do you deny that if we were to put the balloons in a high temperature environment that the atoms would try even harder to escape?

They will move with more force, correct.

Temperature matters.

I never said it didn't. But it doesn't matter in the way you think it does. You are conflating excitation of atoms with density. Cold air is more dense and has a higher pressure than warm air. In warm air, the molecules apply more force via their fast speed, but are also more spread out, which causes the pressure to drop. Things aren't always as simple as we'd like them to be.

By what physical mechanism? You are just mindlessly repeating that high pressure equalizes into low pressure environments without really even explaining, or THINKING, why that is.

Second law of thermodynamics. Or, if you want to talk purely pressure, it is an equalization of force. Matter pushing on matter.

What would be the difference between an Iron atom sitting at the bottom of a balloon and the gaseous atoms trying to escape the balloon around it? Why doesn't the Iron atom try to escape? The reason is excitement. The Iron atom is not as excited as Oxygen or Helium.

You should probably lose the balloon analogy, it is only hurting your cause. The energy level of atoms can change - you can't say one is more "excited" than the other. You can say that an iron atom is heavier than oxygen and far heavier than helium, which is light enough to be lost to space.

If the atmosphere were composed entirely of Iron atoms, would you be telling me that they would be sucked off of the edge of the earth?

It isn't though, so you can spare us that strawman.

[xenotolerance]

Inflate a balloon. Put it in the freezer. See what happens.

When the air inside the balloon cools down, will it deflate? Will it pop? Will it reach equilibrium with the cold air already inside the freezer and stay inflated?

//

Tom is suggesting that because air molecules have low energy near absolute zero, which is just the definition of temperature, other warmer air cannot interact with it and come to equilibrium. No, once air gets too cold, it becomes impossible to warm up again. See his use of the word 'dead.' Like, if you hit a slow moving 8 ball with a fast moving cue ball, if the 8 ball is slow enough the cue ball just ignores it, or also becomes slow, or something. His argument hasn't been consistent.

So, now we're trying to prove to Pyrrho that thermodynamics is real. Good luck everyone, I'm out

[JohnAdams1145]

Higher pressure air rushes to lower pressure air. This is so easily observed and empirically confirmed

Before the experiment in the balloon freezing video the balloons were all higher pressure than the surrounding environment. They were all inflated. As they cooled the gases in the balloons were no longer interested in traveling into that lower pressure environment. They deflated and sat on the ground dead. This is direct evidence that temperature also plays a part in how air pressures attempt to equalize. The temperature changed the pressure inside of the balloon.

Since temperature can change pressure, how is it a given that if there were an edge somewhere thousands of miles into the icy tundra of a Flat Earth model, that the atmosphere would explode off of the edges into the vacuum of space? There would need to be a large pressure difference; and that is not a reasonable conclusion when we know that low temperatures = low pressures.

And, people, Tom Bishop has just demonstrated that he doesn't know the difference between temperature and pressure. Lowering the temperature lowers the pressure, and the balloon deflates so the elastic force of the balloon and the pressure of the outside atmosphere balance out the internal pressure. When you have a pressure difference, the gas statistically will flow from high pressure to low pressure. This is simple kinetic molecular theory, and can be justified through the probability of collisions on one side of a gas molecule as opposed to the other.

The atmospheric pressure is not primarily a result of temperature; exert a force (normal force from Earth) on a gas, and it experiences pressure. Basic physics. I'll ask you again, Tom, please take an AP Physics test to review your knowledge of elementary physics.

[AATW]

Yes, it's amusing that Tom is so ignorant that he doesn't realise that his video shows the exact effect he claims would not happen.
High pressure over the "disc" of the earth would leak into the low pressure outside it.
If you imagine cooling a rigid ball (as opposed to a balloon) filled with air at the same pressure as the atmosphere then the pressure inside the ball would drop. If the ball then had a hole punched in it which direction would the air move? From high pressure to low. In the video Tom posted that effect is shown by the balloon getting smaller as the higher pressure outside the balloon was able to press it into a smaller shape. The only way of fixing this in the FE model are some physical barrier to stop the "atmoplane" leaking or an infinite plane with a constant pressure throughout.