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Offline Roundy

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Trans athletes
« on: June 02, 2021, 11:12:33 PM »
I'm sorry, but... *shakes head*

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/556523-laws-banning-trans-athletes-from-competing-in

Until men and women compete in sports together, on equal footing, the premise of this article is pure uncut bullshit.

There are reasons we don't have female linebackers in the NFL, reasons why there is a WNBA separate from the regular NBA, and that is that women's and men's bodies are fundamentally different, and that difference is determined at birth, not whenever whoever decides to choose what gender they want to be.

They're seriously saying that this isn't supported by science?  ::)
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2021, 01:05:46 AM »
I'm sorry, but... *shakes head*

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/556523-laws-banning-trans-athletes-from-competing-in

Until men and women compete in sports together, on equal footing, the premise of this article is pure uncut bullshit.

There are reasons we don't have female linebackers in the NFL, reasons why there is a WNBA separate from the regular NBA, and that is that women's and men's bodies are fundamentally different, and that difference is determined at birth, not whenever whoever decides to choose what gender they want to be.

They're seriously saying that this isn't supported by science?  ::)

They are saying is that there are differences in performance based on biological sex. However, these differences, at a non-elite level, aren’t as pronounced as people often think. Also, the number of trans women wanting to compete on female teams is vanishingly small and does not warrant the amount of attention that it is getting. These laws are the new frontier of GOP gateway policies.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2021, 01:10:52 AM »
Also, the number of trans women wanting to compete on female teams is vanishingly small and does not warrant the amount of attention that it is getting.

Are you saying that no one should care about or debate policies that only affect a small amount of people? I don't understand your point. Regardless, if a single transwoman is on a team, that affects the entire team as well as every team that specific team plays. It ultimately affects the entire sport.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2021, 01:13:23 AM »
Are you saying that no one should care about or debate policies that only affect a small amount of people?

Lol

Quote
I don't understand your point.

Based on what follows, I got that.

Quote
Regardless, if a single transwoman is on a team, that affects the entire team as well as every team that specific team plays. It ultimately affects the entire sport.

Lol
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Offline honk

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2021, 04:22:46 AM »
Holy shit, leave trans people alone. Let them be addressed with the pronouns they want, let them use the bathrooms they want, and let them have their sports. These are real people who are trying to live their lives with dignity. Let them have that. You don't have to date them or have sex with them if you don't want to. Just let them live their lives without excluding them or marginalizing them. Whatever twinge of unease you might feel about their existence or whatever intellectual duty you think you have to "debunk" them simply doesn't compare to the moral imperative of not treating your fellow humans as second-class citizens.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2021, 01:13:31 AM by honk »
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2021, 07:48:41 AM »
I'm sorry, but... *shakes head*

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/556523-laws-banning-trans-athletes-from-competing-in

Until men and women compete in sports together, on equal footing, the premise of this article is pure uncut bullshit.

There are reasons we don't have female linebackers in the NFL, reasons why there is a WNBA separate from the regular NBA, and that is that women's and men's bodies are fundamentally different, and that difference is determined at birth, not whenever whoever decides to choose what gender they want to be.

They're seriously saying that this isn't supported by science?  ::)

What Rama said.
In essence, how "strong" someone is has a lot of factors and testosterone is one of them.  And if you're gonna go Trans, odds are you aren't fitting the framework of your birth gender anyway.  (ie. strong woman / Weak male).
And besides, what the law is now saying is "If you take testosterone and become more agressive and stronger, like a man, you need to play on the girl's team.".
Conversely, its saying "Trans girls need to play on the boys team".
Think about that for a second.  If you're taking Estrogen and losing muscle mass, growing (small) breasts, dressing as a woman... then told "You gotta go play mens basketball" what the hell is that going to do?  Do you think it'll be some kind of advantage?  How is the public going to react to a Woman on the men's team?


Yes, men and women are built differently.  Men can get muscle mass alot faster and easier than women purely due to biology.  This does not mean a woman can't be as strong as a man.  Just means she needs to work harder.

Honestly, the division of the sexes in sports seems more geared towards "keeping men and women separate" than it does any comptative disadvantages.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2021, 08:15:57 AM »
Holy shit, leave trans people alone. Let them be addressed with the pronouns they want, let them use the bathrooms they want, and let them have their sports. These are real people who are trying to live their lives with dignity. Let them have that. You don't have to date them or have sex with them if you don't want to. Just let them live their lives without excluding them or marginalizing them. Whatever twinge of unease you might feel about their existence or whatever intellectual duty you think you have to "debunk" them simply doesn't compare to the moral imperative of not treating your fellow humans as second-class citizens.
Oh, cool.
So I’ve just decided that I identify as a woman so can I go into the women’s locker rooms now? What do you mean no? Don’t you oppress me.
I’m not convinced that pandering to people’s psychological issues is helping them.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2021, 09:40:13 AM »
I’m not convinced that pandering to people’s psychological issues is helping them.
The current medical consensus is that gender dysphoria is much more nuanced and complex than "psychological issues", and gaining official recognition as the gender you choose to identify with is a lengthy process filled with painful obstacles - not quite the same as "deciding that you identify as a woman".

The general public have a very elevated opinion of their understanding of these sort of issues, but when it comes to actually showing that understanding, it usually turns out to be vanishingly small. Any argument here will be meaningless if we don't even know what we're arguing about.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2021, 03:30:45 PM »
Are you saying that no one should care about or debate policies that only affect a small amount of people?

Lol

Quote
I don't understand your point.

Based on what follows, I got that.

Quote
Regardless, if a single transwoman is on a team, that affects the entire team as well as every team that specific team plays. It ultimately affects the entire sport.

Lol

"LOL" isn't an answer. What did he get wrong?

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Offline Shane

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2021, 03:46:31 PM »
How many students do you think "decide" to switch genders to either beat up on people or to sneak into their locker room? That argument seems silly to me.
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You are rushying to unwarranted conclusions

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2021, 04:17:33 PM »
"LOL" isn't an answer. What did he get wrong?

When Rama gets blown out of arguments, he just says 'lol' and moves on. You get used to it. It's his attempt at using cool condescension and indifference to mask an aversion to conflict. It's annoying, but consistent and appreciably direct. There are many members here who consistently avoid engaging in direct arguments, Rama is one of them. You'll do well to start remembering them, so you know to just make your point and move on. Don't bother poking them further because all you'll get is multiple 'lol' posts instead of just one.

The current medical consensus is that gender dysphoria is much more nuanced and complex than "psychological issues", and gaining official recognition as the gender you choose to identify with is a lengthy process filled with painful obstacles - not quite the same as "deciding that you identify as a woman".

The general public have a very elevated opinion of their understanding of these sort of issues, but when it comes to actually showing that understanding, it usually turns out to be vanishingly small. Any argument here will be meaningless if we don't even know what we're arguing about.

That entirely depends on the legal system in question, with some governments or companies having more barriers than others. In some cases, such as certain private gyms, it can be as simple as claiming you identify as another gender. It's more nuanced than you think, but it's not necessarily as complex as you think.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 04:33:56 PM by Rushy »

Offline Action80

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2021, 05:06:39 PM »
I'm sorry, but... *shakes head*

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/556523-laws-banning-trans-athletes-from-competing-in

Until men and women compete in sports together, on equal footing, the premise of this article is pure uncut bullshit.

There are reasons we don't have female linebackers in the NFL, reasons why there is a WNBA separate from the regular NBA, and that is that women's and men's bodies are fundamentally different, and that difference is determined at birth, not whenever whoever decides to choose what gender they want to be.

They're seriously saying that this isn't supported by science?  ::)

They are saying is that there are differences in performance based on biological sex. However, these differences, at a non-elite level, aren’t as pronounced as people often think. Also, the number of trans women wanting to compete on female teams is vanishingly small and does not warrant the amount of attention that it is getting. These laws are the new frontier of GOP gateway policies.
What constitutes "non-elite level?"

Scratch that. I am just going to write the following.

You have no clue what you are writing about, as usual.

Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 05:31:30 PM by Action80 »

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Offline rooster

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2021, 05:46:40 PM »
The physician and geneticist from that article seems to disagree with some of you.
Quote
“We know that men have, on average, an advantage in performance in athletics of about 10% to 12% over women, which the sports authorities have attributed to differences in levels of a male hormone called testosterone,” says Vilain to NPR. “But the question is whether there is in real life, during actual competitions, an advantage of performance linked to this male hormone and whether trans athletes are systematically winning all competitions. The answer to this latter question, are trans athletes winning everything, is simple — that's not the case.

Have any of you seen a young trans person who's fully transitioned? These aren't trans girls with body builder physiques.

https://www.hrc.org/news/meet-rebekah-a-14-year-old-field-hockey-player-turned-transgender-advocate
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 06:32:01 PM by rooster »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2021, 07:01:44 PM »
Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.
Just because you write it, does not make it true.

Like, I'm, pretty sure you can't run 100 meters in 10.49 seconds.  And I'm willing to bet that your local HS team of men can't either.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2021, 07:23:32 PM »
Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.
Just because you write it, does not make it true.

Like, I'm, pretty sure you can't run 100 meters in 10.49 seconds.  And I'm willing to bet that your local HS team of men can't either.

No, you are committing a fallacy. You are only comparing one of the best females against all "non-elite males." You need to compare all elite-females against all non-elite males.

Also:

There are hundreds of male elite athletes faster than her: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-second_barrier

And here are a high school senior and a high school junior doing 100 meters in under 10 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WLRzlo173A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZm3xlMw9us
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 07:46:55 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2021, 07:30:29 PM »
Are you saying that no one should care about or debate policies that only affect a small amount of people?

Lol

Quote
I don't understand your point.

Based on what follows, I got that.

Quote
Regardless, if a single transwoman is on a team, that affects the entire team as well as every team that specific team plays. It ultimately affects the entire sport.

Lol

"LOL" isn't an answer. What did he get wrong?

The first one was me laughing at the classic Rushy  reductionist bait. The second was for the pearl clutching assertion that “it ultimately affects the entire sport”. It’s nonsense fear mongering that doesn’t deserve a response.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2021, 07:34:44 PM »
Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.
Just because you write it, does not make it true.

Like, I'm, pretty sure you can't run 100 meters in 10.49 seconds.  And I'm willing to bet that your local HS team of men can't either.

No, you are committing a fallacy. You are only comparing one of the best females against all "non-elite males." You need to compare all elite-females against all non-elite males.

Also:

There are hundreds of male elite athletes faster than her: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-second_barrier

And here a high school senior and a high school junior doing 100 meters in under 10 seconds:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WLRzlo173A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZm3xlMw9us

These are all examples of elite athletes, statistical outliers. Absolutely there are profound differences between sexes at the fringes. All I mean to say is that there is a giant amount of overlap between the sexes in the middle of distributions, specifically in under-18 athletics. 
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2021, 07:44:08 PM »
What constitutes "non-elite level?"

Scratch that. I am just going to write the following.

Oh how exciting.

Quote
You have no clue what you are writing about, as usual.

0/10. No effort. Standard Lackey.

Quote
Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.

Depends on the age. Not sure why you are fixating on that though. It’s not like without these laws there will be women’s teams filled with guys keen play rugby against girls.
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2021, 07:45:24 PM »
Non-elite males will beat ultra-elite females, quite soundly.
Just because you write it, does not make it true.

Like, I'm, pretty sure you can't run 100 meters in 10.49 seconds.  And I'm willing to bet that your local HS team of men can't either.
Are you arguing that 'ex-men' should be able to compete with women?

I'd like to use the example of Fallon Fox.

Fallon Fox was a dude. A dude who decided to hide behind gender apologists and compete in women's MMA.
Behold the headline.
https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-skull-of-her-female-opponent/


Quote from: https://bjj-world.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-skull-of-her-female-opponent/
Everything happened in the first round and in the first two and a half minutes. It was messy, it was bloody and it’s not easy viewing for everybody. Tamika suffered a concussion and a broken skull and Fallon Fox wasn’t stopping until Tamika Brents was finally TKO’d.
Now it isn't easy viewing, because there aren't many people who would actively watch a man take a woman's face apart in a brutal assault and call it entertainment.

The defeated woman, who by-the-way was an extremely accomplished fighter in her own right said after the fight
Quote from: Tamika Brents
“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because she was born a man or not because I’m not a doctor. I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right… I still disagree with Fox fighting. Any other job or career I say have a go at it, but when it comes to a combat sport I think it just isn’t fair.”

It is very very easy to sort this mess out. The women's competitions are a handicapped event. The handicap being, they don't have a y-chromosome. If you lack a y-chromosome, you can compete in the womens. But it you are xy or more uncommonly xxy or xyy or xxyy or any other combination with a y in it ... you can't compete in the women's because every cell in your body is male. And no amount of chopping off your genitalia, taking hormones and stuffing silicon in your chest is going to change that.

No one is stopping you neutering yourself and getting an office job or working in a factory. But you shouldn't be allowed to compete with women in sports.

We should also look at 'ex-men' competing at colleges and actively winning scholarships. They are taking places of women.


And if you are in any doubt as to the difference between men and women and thinking ... meh, women are only a second slower at 100m, maybe its not that big of a deal ... watch the video below. It is the weird event of mixed 100m relay. For reasons I don't fully understand, Jamaica decide to make their two men run first ... against everyone else's women. Have a look at the difference between Asafa Powell vs 5 of the fastest women in the world. Then decide if you chopped off Powell's enormous dick, if that would slow him down enough to make this a fair race (Give him time to heal. I don't mean chop it off 2 mins before the start).



That Powell race looks a lot like this college race ... spot the dude.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 07:47:24 PM by Toddler Thork »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2021, 07:53:12 PM »
Here come the anecdotes. Incidentally, Fallon Fox has a professional loss since transitioning.
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