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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2021, 08:45:31 PM »
Describing transgender people as simply having false beliefs on par with thinking you've been visited by aliens or you are the messiah is a crude oversimplification. Transgender people simply have a different gender identity to their biological sex. It's not something that's "right" or "wrong," it's just how they are.

Incorrect. There is a right and a wrong. The sex of living mammals has a biological definition. If you saw that a dog with male genes and organs who enjoys being mounted as if it were a female, and claim that it makes the dog a female, then you are wrong by definition.

I'm not talking about sex; I'm talking about gender identity.

A dog can pretend to be female, but that doesn't make it a female dog, and nor should it allow it to compete against female dogs in an all-female-dog racing competition. It just means that the dog has a behavioral or mental condition.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 09:38:14 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline fisherman

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2021, 08:50:37 PM »
Quote
this is a savagely misguided and antiquated understanding of psychological disorders — especially schizophrenia — but let's set that aside for a moment. suppose that it were the case that one could treat schizophrenics by indulging their beliefs. suppose you could just be like "yeah man, the cia and aliens, cool beans" and doing so made them happy, productive members of their communities instead of suicidal social pariahs. would you have a problem with that treatment option?

As the sibling of a schizophrenic and parent of a severely bipolar daughter, I can tell you that I would have a problem with it.  My brother has passed, but believe me when I say that I would cut out my own heart if I thought it would bring my daughter some relief, but expecting the rest of my family, her friends, employers and society in general to feign acceptance of her delusions when she is in a psychotic episode is too much of a physical, emotional and financial burden to place on anyone.  Not to mention that doing that could put her and others in physical danger.

I understand that the transgender issue isn't the same as accepting someone's "identified" gender doesn't really require any great sacrifice and I admit to some mixed feelings about it.  There was one episode she had that I think is somewhat analogous, though.

 At one point, she wanted to poke her eyes out because she thought it would stop the hallucinations.  Naturally, that is something that couldn't be indulged...not just because of the obvious physical implications, but because she didn't understand that her eyes weren't the problem.  Poking her eyes out wouldn't stop the hallucinations because the problem was in her mind, not with her vision.

In that way, I'm not sure that reassignment surgery and mutilating one's genitalia is appropriate.  The problem isn't with the presence or absence of sex organs.  The problem is in the mind.  I knew that poking her eyes out would not give my daughter relief and I wonder just how much relief reassignment surgery gives transgender people.  I can't help but suspect that feelings of inadequacy,  loneliness, etc. continue to some extent.
There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that can infer logical conclusions from given information

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Offline rooster

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2021, 09:09:21 PM »
In that way, I'm not sure that reassignment surgery and mutilating one's genitalia is appropriate.
Mutilating is absolutely the incorrect word. Surgery is not a violent disfigurement. No one says, "hi, I'd like to make an appointment for my breast mutilation."

Quote
The problem isn't with the presence or absence of sex organs.  The problem is in the mind.  I knew that poking her eyes out would not give my daughter relief and I wonder just how much relief reassignment surgery gives transgender people. I can't help but suspect that feelings of inadequacy,  loneliness, etc. continue to some extent.
Self harm and going blind ≠  not having a penis if you really really don't want one. People have surgeries all the time for body dysmorphia, I don't see any of you having such a problem with breast augmentation or any other kind of plastic surgery.

Gender dysphoria is sometimes very extreme. People self harm, hate themselves, have thoughts of or actually commit suicide. If a surgery alleviates those symptoms and gives them the body they identify with, then yes it is a huge relief. I know a couple transpeople who have completely different and happier lives after transitioning.

And if they feel inadequacies or loneliness it actually has more to do with being ostracized, discrimination, people saying they've mutilated their bodies, or comparing them to dogs for dehumanizing analogies.

But sure, sometimes gender reassignment surgery might not help. Just like getting bigger breasts might not necessarily help someone's self image or confidence. Anyway, this is still completely irrelevant to 16 year old transkids wanting to play sports.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 09:13:44 PM by rooster »

Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2021, 10:09:58 PM »
I can't believe some of you are this upset about pronouns and genitals. It's really not that complicated or difficult to just.. respect people and not worry about their lives.

I can respect someone and also not think that society should have to pander to their delusion. And I'm sorry if you don't like the word delusion, but what else do you call it? I am male, and I'm human. That's not an opinion, it's not subjective, it's encoded in my DNA.
You're going to make a distinction between gender and sex of course, it's a completely spurious distinction. How many made up genders are we up to now? I'm not saying that people don't really feel these things and yes, they should get treatment. But I don't think that treatment should involve cutting bits off of them or sticking other bits on or pumping them full of drugs to try and simulate the gender they think they are.

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What's one good reason a 16 year old girl, with standard female estrogen levels, can't play soccer with other girls?
If the 16 year old girl you're talking about is called Barry and has a cock then it's because they're not a girl.
Them thinking they are doesn't make them correct.

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The only people I ever see complaining about this are transphobes who are not affected by it whatsoever.
It's not transphobic to think that certain sports are better being single sex. In things like snooker and darts there is a mix and it works fine, they're not sports which rely on physical strength or size, there's no inherent advantage in being male or female. In sports like tennis, athletics or football (soccer, for you Yanks) - and in most sports really - there's a clear advantage for males.
Does it affect me? I guess not. And I disagree with the notion that it affects the whole of the sport as someone said above. But it's part of the pandering which I actually believe is counter-productive and not ultimately helping people in the right way.

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If the International Olympic Committee can allow transpeople to compete in their respective sports, then why the hell would a high school be pressed about it?
That's fair, but I think the IOC have incorrectly bowed to politically correct peer pressure. Two wrongs don't make a right.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2021, 10:13:30 PM »
Gender dysphoria is sometimes very extreme. People self harm, hate themselves, have thoughts of or actually commit suicide. If a surgery alleviates those symptoms and gives them the body they identify with, then yes it is a huge relief. I know a couple transpeople who have completely different and happier lives after transitioning.
There are also conditions where people hate a certain limb and want it amputated. Should they just be given surgery to do that?
It might alleviate the condition but it would obviously make their lives harder in other ways which would require them to have help.
Obviously people with these conditions need help, the debate is surely how best to help them. It doesn't feel like lopping their cocks off is the right way of doing it.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2021, 10:17:48 PM »
Describing transgender people as simply having false beliefs on par with thinking you've been visited by aliens or you are the messiah is a crude oversimplification. Transgender people simply have a different gender identity to their biological sex. It's not something that's "right" or "wrong," it's just how they are.

Incorrect. There is a right and a wrong. The sex of living mammals has a biological definition. If you saw that a dog with male genes and organs who enjoys being mounted as if it were a female, and claim that it makes the dog a female, then you are wrong by definition.

I'm not talking about sex; I'm talking about gender identity.

I read a good analogy about the perception of trans people manifests. Turns out people who have been born missing a limb can still have phantom limb syndrome. Your brain develops “expecting” a certain type of development. Similarly with trans people, their brain expects them to be one gender and is actually another.

Anyone who think trans people are delusional, they have made no effort to learn about their experience. They are perfectly lucid about the state of their anatomy and despite their sex experience a gender that doesn’t agree with it. It’s an incongruency but they are not misapprehending reality.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2021, 10:21:46 PM »
Gender dysphoria is sometimes very extreme. People self harm, hate themselves, have thoughts of or actually commit suicide. If a surgery alleviates those symptoms and gives them the body they identify with, then yes it is a huge relief. I know a couple transpeople who have completely different and happier lives after transitioning.
There are also conditions where people hate a certain limb and want it amputated. Should they just be given surgery to do that?
It might alleviate the condition but it would obviously make their lives harder in other ways which would require them to have help.
Obviously people with these conditions need help, the debate is surely how best to help them. It doesn't feel like lopping their cocks off is the right way of doing it.

Sexual reassignment is not the only way to transition.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2021, 10:32:18 PM »
I’m not convinced that pandering to people’s psychological issues is helping them.
The current medical consensus is that gender dysphoria is much more nuanced and complex than "psychological issues", and gaining official recognition as the gender you choose to identify with is a lengthy process filled with painful obstacles - not quite the same as "deciding that you identify as a woman".

The general public have a very elevated opinion of their understanding of these sort of issues, but when it comes to actually showing that understanding, it usually turns out to be vanishingly small. Any argument here will be meaningless if we don't even know what we're arguing about.
I'm interested in how selective you (plural) are about how much weight to give to the consensus of experts...

I was being flippant in my first post, admittedly. But there surely has to be something psychological going on here. We are, after all, talking about how people feel. My maleness is not a subjective opinion, it's determined by my biology and chromosomes. What makes me "feel" male? What does that even mean? I don't know how it "feels" to be female. I imagine there is some nurture element going on, society treats males and females differently, parents bring up boys and girls differently. That has to have an effect.

This is obviously a complicated subject. And fine, I'm not an expert on this. But just because someone feels something, that doesn't mean they're correct and that we should all pander to the way they feel. Where does that start and end?
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #48 on: June 04, 2021, 10:47:36 PM »
Anyone who think trans people are delusional, they have made no effort to learn about their experience. They are perfectly lucid about the state of their anatomy and despite their sex experience a gender that doesn’t agree with it. It’s an incongruency but they are not misapprehending reality.
The delusion is thinking you can change sex simply by having a surgeon chop bits off you. And it is a delusion. If an anorexic believes themselves to be to fat, we don't agree and put them on a diet. If a man thinks he's a woman, you shouldn't agree and chop his knackers off. As said, the problem is with his head ... not his body.



Mutilating is absolutely the incorrect word. Surgery is not a violent disfigurement. No one says, "hi, I'd like to make an appointment for my breast mutilation."
This is a very female viewpoint. Where the language is oh so important and must be controlled so as not to hurt feelings. It doesn't matter what you call it. When you chop off a woman's healthy breasts because she wants to be a man, it is a mutilation. But call it an operation if you like. The result is the same. Her flumps end up in the bin. She's still not a man. She's 6 inches shorter than most men and doesn't have a working set of balls and a dick. And every single cell in her body is XX. She has female DNA. You can't be reassigned a new sex when your DNA is male. You are male.

Imagine this.

Your transgender 'woman' is dug up by an archaeologist in 800 years time. What sex is the archaeologist going to determine this 'woman' was? The skeleton is utterly male. The DNA is male. The hormones, mutilated penis and fake boobs have long since rotted away. Has a man's height, a man's jaw, a man's pelvis, a man's DNA. This one is going down on the clipboard as a man.

if transkids have the proper estrogen or testosterone levels of their respective gender then why can't they play sports with other children of their identifying gender?
Because hormones and things like facial hair and muscle size are the SECONDARY sex characteristics. Not the PRIMARY characteristics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_sex_characteristic

You can't just change the secondary effects and say "welp, its fair now". It isn't. They guy is likely still 6 inches taller with shoulders that are twice as wide. He's got man's hips and heel bones. He'll be able to run faster because of this. It isn't fair.


personal anecdote
I hope the future will be kinder to your family than the past has been.

Sexual reassignment is not the only way to transition.
Utter psycho babble. There is no transition. There is aggressive medical intervention that delivers life changing injuries to otherwise healthy people. Transition ... reminds me of when people can't say the word died and instead say "John has passed". Stop fucking with the language because you don't want to hear reality.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 10:52:40 PM by Toddler Thork »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #49 on: June 04, 2021, 10:56:13 PM »
Thork, you’re getting upset so let’s try and stay civil. Transitioning is an umbrella term that describes many interventions, some not even medical. Some trans people don’t even attempt to transition.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #50 on: June 04, 2021, 11:08:06 PM »
This argument hinges on making compassionate treatment and bending to delusion equivalent. Schizophrenic patients are treated with compassion and medication but at no point is other parts of society expected to bend to their schizophrenic beliefs. We do not recognize them as messiahs or take their remarks on aliens or the CIA seriously. Why then, must delusions from supposedly 'transexual' people be treated with such gravity? If a man believes he is a woman or if a woman believes she is a man, then he or she is mentally disordered. The treatment is not and should never be to just play into their pretending. No other mental disorder is treated by playing into the patient's delusions, why is this one any different?

this is a savagely misguided and antiquated understanding of psychological disorders — especially schizophrenia — but let's set that aside for a moment. suppose that it were the case that one could treat schizophrenics by indulging their beliefs. suppose you could just be like "yeah man, the cia and aliens, cool beans" and doing so made them happy, productive members of their communities instead of suicidal social pariahs. would you have a problem with that treatment option?

Yes, as this does not treat their core psychological problem. Outcome based treatment is how we ended up with lobotomies. Further, playing into a schizophrenic's beliefs is less damaging than a gender dysphoric patient, as indulging a belief in aliens doesn't require long term hormone therapy or body mutilation. Modern day treatment of gender dysphoria is a circus of treating the disorder by indulging the symptoms. There is something quite seriously wrong with both the mind and body when a patient exhibits gender dysphoria.

Let's say, for example, a patient exhibits body dysmorphia and demands their right arm be removed. They do this for several years on end, despite the guidance of psychologists, psychiatrists, and so on. Is it ultimately the better outcome to remove the patients right arm? I don't think it is. Do you?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 11:10:51 PM by Rushy »

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Offline rooster

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #51 on: June 04, 2021, 11:21:04 PM »
Well dang, I'm the same height as the (world) average man and have broader shoulders than average women. I even once dated a guy who had broader hips than me. And yes, my advantage was that I was the fastest girl on my soccer team. What a tragedy I had these advantages. Maybe they shouldn't have let me play with the other girls. 🙄

None of you are doctors or are even using medical arguments. We already know the medically recommended treatment for trans people, some of you just don't like it or agree with it. And now you're all saying mutilation for shits and giggles even though pedantically speaking it is incorrect.

And I know you're not making these arguments for trans peoples' best interest because you continue to demean them. None of you are going around testing DNA to make sure the people you know are their born gender. You don't care about their well-being, you just think it's icky that a girl might have a penis.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #52 on: June 04, 2021, 11:24:12 PM »
Well dang, I'm the same height as the (world) average man and have broader shoulders than average women. I even once dated a guy who had broader hips than me. And yes, my advantage was that I was the fastest girl on my soccer team. What a tragedy I had these advantages. Maybe they shouldn't have let me play with the other girls. 🙄

By the nature of the new wobbly definitions of what it means to be a man or a woman, by your description you already are a man. Congratulations.

None of you are doctors or are even using medical arguments. We already know the medically recommended treatment for trans people, some of you just don't like it or agree with it. And now you're all saying mutilation for shits and giggles even though pedantically speaking it is incorrect.

At one point, the most common prescription for a mental disorder was to remove the entirety of the patient's frontal cortex. This is simply an argument from authority and one that historically has never held up. Simply being the most common or most recommended treatment today doesn't mean it's a good one.

And I know you're not making these arguments for trans peoples' best interest because you continue to demean them. None of you are going around testing DNA to make sure the people you know are their born gender. You don't care about their well-being, you just think it's icky that a girl might have a penis.

Tell me, in your own words, what a girl is.

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2021, 11:28:24 PM »
Some trans people don’t even attempt to transition.
What next? Some politicians don't even attempt politics? Some nurses don't even attempt to do any nursing? Some guitarists have never even attempted picking up a guitar?  ::)

I'm not blinded by your weasel words. There are no trans people. There are mentally ill men and women who are not getting the proper psychological help that they deserve with their gender dysmorphia, but I'm not going to agree they are the wrong sex any more than I agree that Mental Barry is the King of West London. And I feel that all these virtue thirsty do-gooders who are high on empathy and low on critical reasoning skills are muddying the water with their flowery language and preventing real progress being made in the treatment of this disorder. The road hell is paved with good intention, as they say.

Well dang, I'm the same height as the (world) average man and have broader shoulders than average women. I even once dated a guy who had broader hips than me. And yes, my advantage was that I was the fastest girl on my soccer team. What a tragedy I had these advantages. Maybe they shouldn't have let me play with the other girls. 🙄
Maybe you should have focused a little harder and you might be playing for Barcelona with genetics like that. Now these traits were your god given gifts. They weren't bought and paid for by big pharma. And in sport, we don't like people getting extra help from big pharma. We call it cheating. That's why we don't want someone with massive amounts of medical interventions who suddenly find themselves able to dominate a sport, competing against those who haven't cheated.

None of you are doctors or are even using medical arguments. We already know the medically recommended treatment for trans people, some of you just don't like it or agree with it. And now you're all saying mutilation for shits and giggles even though pedantically speaking it is incorrect.
Well they used to electrocute them over and over in the 1930s, and before that packs of leeches were distributed. But yeah, they are bound to be using the correct treatments now because the success rate is so high.  ::)
Edit: Ninja'd by Rushy. It is frightening that we think the same things. Where is the real Rushy and who the hell is this imposter?

you just think it's icky that a girl might have a penis.
She absolutely won't have a penis. Or anything like a penis. She may have a prosthetic part attached, but if I bolted a set of wheels to your ankles, would you describe them as feet?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 11:36:39 PM by Toddler Thork »
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #54 on: June 04, 2021, 11:38:57 PM »
Rooster was talking about a trans woman without gender confirming surgery. That’s a girl with a penis. A trans man with gender confirming surgery will have a penis. I know, I know. It’s a lot to throw at you, but you’ll get it.
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Offline rooster

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #55 on: June 04, 2021, 11:42:41 PM »
Well dang, I'm the same height as the (world) average man and have broader shoulders than average women. I even once dated a guy who had broader hips than me. And yes, my advantage was that I was the fastest girl on my soccer team. What a tragedy I had these advantages. Maybe they shouldn't have let me play with the other girls. 🙄

By the nature of the new wobbly definitions of what it means to be a man or a woman, by your description you already are a man. Congratulations.

None of you are doctors or are even using medical arguments. We already know the medically recommended treatment for trans people, some of you just don't like it or agree with it. And now you're all saying mutilation for shits and giggles even though pedantically speaking it is incorrect.

At one point, the most common prescription for a mental disorder was to remove the entirety of the patient's frontal cortex. This is simply an argument from authority and one that historically has never held up. Simply being the most common or most recommended treatment today doesn't mean it's a good one.

And I know you're not making these arguments for trans peoples' best interest because you continue to demean them. None of you are going around testing DNA to make sure the people you know are their born gender. You don't care about their well-being, you just think it's icky that a girl might have a penis.

Tell me, in your own words, what a girl is.

That's not my definition of what constitutes a man or woman. My point was that I already have characteristics of what Thork thinks someone on a girls' sports team shouldn't have. It's only fair because I didn't take drugs... Even though ironically I was taking estrogen (bc pills).

A girl is anyone who identifies as a girl. Our brains have structural differences between male and female. Sometimes a female brain ends up in a male body.

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/

What's in someone's pants is irrelevant to me because I likely won't interact with it anyway. And if someone has the natural hormonal levels of their identifying gender and wants to play in highschool sports there's no real reason why they can't.

Edit by Rushy: I am a complete idiot and overwrote Rooster's post thinking it was a reply.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 11:57:54 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #56 on: June 04, 2021, 11:48:28 PM »
Rooster was talking about a trans woman without gender confirming surgery.
Oh ... a woman who has a penis ... we have a word for that ... way more concise ... we call them ... men.

That’s a girl with a penis.
No, it is a man. Even a small child can understand this. The ones with the peepees are boys. The ones with the foofoos are girls.

A trans man
you mean a woman with gender dysmorphia

with gender confirming surgery
Gender confirming? We already knew her gender ... she was a woman. She may not have known, but everyone else did. This is common in people with mental illness.

will have a penis. I know, I know. It’s a lot to throw at you, but you’ll get it.
If I sowed a carrot to your crotch, does it cease to be a carrot and suddenly become a penis?


What's in someone's pants is irrelevant to me because I likely won't interact with it anyway.
That's some fierce transphobia, right there.
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Offline rooster

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #57 on: June 04, 2021, 11:51:55 PM »
What's in someone's pants is irrelevant to me because I likely won't interact with it anyway.
That's some fierce transphobia, right there.
Because I'm in a monogamous relationship. I have no aversion to hypothetically being in a relationship with a transman. Nice try though.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #58 on: June 04, 2021, 11:58:23 PM »
A girl is anyone who identifies as a girl.

This is the equivalent of me asking what a circle is and you answer "a circle is a circle". You didn't define what a girl is. What precisely does it mean to "identify as a girl"? Let's say you're reading a great book and it describes a character as a "young girl", what image is brought to your mind?

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: Trans athletes
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2021, 12:04:20 AM »
I have no aversion to hypothetically being in a relationship with a transman.

???

Computing ...



???

recalibrating ...



???

adding corrections ...



???

searching ...



 :D

Bingo!

Wow, you have some pretty fucked up sexual preferences.  :-X
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 12:06:44 AM by Toddler Thork »
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