Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #120 on: June 02, 2021, 03:50:31 PM »
It is generally accepted that Russia did fake a lot of stuff during the Cold War to pretend that they had more technological prowess than they did. During the Cold War, Russia went around parading fake ICBMs for decades:

Quote from: AP News
Moscow paraded dummy missiles

MANY OF the huge strategic missiles displayed in Red Square parades during the Soviet era were only dummies, but they scared the West into an expensive response, a Russian magazine reported yesterday.

One such fake, GR-1, an acronym for Global Missile, showed during a parade in 1965, prompted the United States to build an anti- missile defence system worth billions of dollars, said the weekly Vlast (Power). In fact, the Soviets had abandoned the GR-1 project long before the parade.

Another two mobile ballistic missiles shown in the same parade were also fakes, their test launches having been a failure, the magazine said. "Foreign military attaches were scared to death, triggering panic in Nato headquarters," it said. "A huge international uproar followed, and only those who prepared this demonstration knew they were dummies." One of the authors of the Vlast report worked as a missile engineer and said he had worked on a support system for one of the fake missiles to prevent it from bouncing on the stone-paved Red Square in Moscow. The magazine said the Soviet leader Nikita Krushchev first bluffed the West with the legend of powerful Russian missiles, saying the Soviet Union was making them "like sausage". "Such comparison sounded ambiguous for the Soviet people, because the sausage was in deficit, but it duly impressed foreigners," it said. At the time of Krushchev's comment, the Soviets had only four intercontinental ballistic missiles on duty, while the United States had 60. "The myth about the Soviet missile superiority was convenient for both the Soviet leadership and the American military industrial complex, which was getting huge contracts," the magazine said.

There is also a book about Russian Cold War fakery; Russia and the Big Red Lie.


So ICBMs exist.  Can you confirm to @Action80 please.
I think the larger point Tom was making is that ICBM's do not actually exist.

Pity that went over your head or through your ears.


Many.  And the others? 


Offline Action80

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #121 on: June 02, 2021, 04:06:20 PM »
A helicopter is in the atmospheric boundary layer of Earth.   An ICBM is in space.
LOL!

The moon is in space too, in case you forgot.

You do not even know what an ICBM is and are going to presume to now lecture about where things move and how/why the mythical G is going to affect things?

I don't think so.


ICBM;

M = Missile; a projectile.
B = Ballistic; not reliant on aerodynamics for its trajectory.
IC = Inter Continental; having a range typical of the distances between continents. 

The same sources which told you that the initial test of Hwasong-14 had a range of 700 miles, and you trust, also say it reached an altitude of 1750 miles.  Apparently, this gives it the range to hit Alaska and Hawaii.  (I'm not the rocket scientist here, but you have the quadratic equations, so you do the math).  Note that this was the very first test of the Hwasong 14, subsequent development and tests have improved the performance. 

And you will do the math for us?
Who said I trust the BS posted in that article?

I don't trust that article one bit.

At all.

Just like I do not trust you at all.

After all, you stated:
Kim Jong Un has fired several ICBMs.
So, according to you "several," constitutes one.

And that "one," didn't even travel 1000 miles (according to sources), let alone 1000's of miles.

See, when you are incapable of understanding words like, "several," and just willy-nilly toss out figures not matching your rhetoric, it becomes hard to accept.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 04:09:59 PM by Action80 »

Offline Action80

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #122 on: June 02, 2021, 04:08:54 PM »
It is generally accepted that Russia did fake a lot of stuff during the Cold War to pretend that they had more technological prowess than they did. During the Cold War, Russia went around parading fake ICBMs for decades:

Quote from: AP News
Moscow paraded dummy missiles

MANY OF the huge strategic missiles displayed in Red Square parades during the Soviet era were only dummies, but they scared the West into an expensive response, a Russian magazine reported yesterday.

One such fake, GR-1, an acronym for Global Missile, showed during a parade in 1965, prompted the United States to build an anti- missile defence system worth billions of dollars, said the weekly Vlast (Power). In fact, the Soviets had abandoned the GR-1 project long before the parade.

Another two mobile ballistic missiles shown in the same parade were also fakes, their test launches having been a failure, the magazine said. "Foreign military attaches were scared to death, triggering panic in Nato headquarters," it said. "A huge international uproar followed, and only those who prepared this demonstration knew they were dummies." One of the authors of the Vlast report worked as a missile engineer and said he had worked on a support system for one of the fake missiles to prevent it from bouncing on the stone-paved Red Square in Moscow. The magazine said the Soviet leader Nikita Krushchev first bluffed the West with the legend of powerful Russian missiles, saying the Soviet Union was making them "like sausage". "Such comparison sounded ambiguous for the Soviet people, because the sausage was in deficit, but it duly impressed foreigners," it said. At the time of Krushchev's comment, the Soviets had only four intercontinental ballistic missiles on duty, while the United States had 60. "The myth about the Soviet missile superiority was convenient for both the Soviet leadership and the American military industrial complex, which was getting huge contracts," the magazine said.

There is also a book about Russian Cold War fakery; Russia and the Big Red Lie.


So ICBMs exist.  Can you confirm to @Action80 please.
I think the larger point Tom was making is that ICBM's do not actually exist.

Pity that went over your head or through your ears.


Many.  And the others?
The others did not exist at all.

When you claim you have something, you cannot parade out nothing.

I mean, look at your replies to this post.

You are claiming you have something, but you are trotting out absolutely nothing.

Not working out too well, is it?

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #123 on: June 02, 2021, 06:05:54 PM »
Tom made his point that ICBMs don’t exist by citing a source that said they do exist. Seems like Tom failed.

Total Lackey, meanwhile has nothing to present other than his incredulity. Real top notch work.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #124 on: June 02, 2021, 06:48:55 PM »
In the article they only have sources with testimonials of the fake missiles.

What a desperate position you guys are now in to have argue that known liars are truthful sometimes.  ::)

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #125 on: June 02, 2021, 06:50:16 PM »
In the article they only have sources with testimonials of the fake missiles.

What a desperate position you guys are now in to have argue that known liars are truthful sometimes.  ::)

Odd projection from the guy citing sources that disprove his own claim.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Online stack

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #126 on: June 02, 2021, 08:22:40 PM »
In the article they only have sources with testimonials of the fake missiles.

What a desperate position you guys are now in to have argue that known liars are truthful sometimes.  ::)

From the same AP article you cited:

"It wasn’t until 1970 that the Soviet Union reached parity with the United States in land-based intercontinental ballistic missiles, and the overall nuclear balance was attained only shortly before the 1991 Soviet collapse, Vlast said."

Seems like your statement, "In the article they only have sources with testimonials of the fake missiles." is not truthful nor accurate. That's what happens when you stop reading after you found what you thought to be a juicy cherry-picked quote.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #127 on: June 02, 2021, 08:24:13 PM »
In the article they only have sources with testimonials of the fake missiles.

What a desperate position you guys are now in to have argue that known liars are truthful sometimes.  ::)


If ICBMs were real, what evidence would it take for you to believe it?

Would you have to actually witness a launch? Or would you need a warhead to drop on your city?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #128 on: June 02, 2021, 10:30:31 PM »
In the article they only have sources with testimonials of the fake missiles.

What a desperate position you guys are now in to have argue that known liars are truthful sometimes.  ::)

From the same AP article you cited:

"It wasn’t until 1970 that the Soviet Union reached parity with the United States in land-based intercontinental ballistic missiles, and the overall nuclear balance was attained only shortly before the 1991 Soviet collapse, Vlast said."

Seems like your statement, "In the article they only have sources with testimonials of the fake missiles." is not truthful nor accurate. That's what happens when you stop reading after you found what you thought to be a juicy cherry-picked quote.

Ah, so you really have nothing. You are grasping at straws to justify a country who would need to lie about their ICBMs. That's not a testimonial of someone's personal knowledge of real or fake missiles. That's a brief statement of general Cold War history. The references of personal knowledge in that link says that the missiles are fake.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #129 on: June 03, 2021, 01:08:32 AM »
They said paraded missiles were fake. You haven’t come close to showing that all the ICBMs are fake. In fact your own source disagreed with you. You are master of self-owning.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #130 on: June 03, 2021, 01:36:00 AM »
I didn't say that the article proved that all the ICBMs were fake. What I said about the article was as follows:

It is generally accepted that Russia did fake a lot of stuff during the Cold War to pretend that they had more technological prowess than they did. During the Cold War, Russia went around parading fake ICBMs for decades:

You didn't even disagree with this assessment, and have accepted it, desperately moving the goal post now to demanding that the article proves that all the ICBMs are fake.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #131 on: June 03, 2021, 02:15:24 AM »
If that’s all your contending then you’ve waited awfully long to clarify. If that is the case, why even post it? Faking a parade float seems woefully off-topic.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #132 on: June 03, 2021, 10:11:35 AM »
They said paraded missiles were fake. You haven’t come close to showing that all the ICBMs are fake. In fact your own source disagreed with you. You are master of self-owning.
I think the real issue is no one here has come close to demonstrating ICBM's are real, including you.

Until then, it is just a myth propagated by liars.

You have nothing but a bunch of words from known liars, which you love to repeat.

The OP needs to go to CN.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 10:14:10 AM by Action80 »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #133 on: June 03, 2021, 10:49:21 AM »
They said paraded missiles were fake. You haven’t come close to showing that all the ICBMs are fake. In fact your own source disagreed with you. You are master of self-owning.
I think the real issue is no one here has come close to demonstrating ICBM's are real, including you.

Until then, it is just a myth propagated by liars.

“No one at tfes.org has come close to demonstrating ICBMs are real.  Until tfes.org demonstrates they are real they are a myth.”

Top notch epistemology, Total Lackey.

Quote
You have nothing but a bunch of words from known liars, which you love to repeat.

The OP needs to go to CN.

Nice opinion.

Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #134 on: June 03, 2021, 10:57:55 AM »
They said paraded missiles were fake. You haven’t come close to showing that all the ICBMs are fake. In fact your own source disagreed with you. You are master of self-owning.
I think the real issue is no one here has come close to demonstrating ICBM's are real, including you.

Until then, it is just a myth propagated by liars.

You have nothing but a bunch of words from known liars, which you love to repeat.

The OP needs to go to CN.

What about Tomahawk missiles? Are they real? Are mortars real?

At what level of technology does the weapon become fake?
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Offline Action80

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #135 on: June 03, 2021, 12:01:54 PM »
They said paraded missiles were fake. You haven’t come close to showing that all the ICBMs are fake. In fact your own source disagreed with you. You are master of self-owning.
I think the real issue is no one here has come close to demonstrating ICBM's are real, including you.

Until then, it is just a myth propagated by liars.

“No one at tfes.org has come close to demonstrating ICBMs are real.  Until tfes.org demonstrates they are real they are a myth.”

Top notch epistemology.
Actually, no one, anywhere, (that is equivalent to ZERO, by the way, in case you have learned how to count) has demonstrated ICBM's are real.

So, it is not tfes.org that has the entire burden.

But go ahead, you try.

Much like unicorns.
Quote
You have nothing but a bunch of words from known liars, which you love to repeat.

The OP needs to go to CN.

Nice opinion.
When subjects are broached that are deemed to have no factual basis or supporting evidence, those subjects belong in CN.

In this case, everything I have written is true.

Not one person has ever seen a purposefully used ICBM.

Not

One

Person

It is only alleged that ICBM's exist and those allegations comes directly from persons who have a less than stellar record of honesty.

Offline Action80

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #136 on: June 03, 2021, 12:04:16 PM »
They said paraded missiles were fake. You haven’t come close to showing that all the ICBMs are fake. In fact your own source disagreed with you. You are master of self-owning.
I think the real issue is no one here has come close to demonstrating ICBM's are real, including you.

Until then, it is just a myth propagated by liars.

You have nothing but a bunch of words from known liars, which you love to repeat.

The OP needs to go to CN.

What about Tomahawk missiles? Are they real? Are mortars real?

At what level of technology does the weapon become fake?
When you cannot produce evidence of use, I would suppose.

I have seen Tomahawks in use, hitting their intended targets.

I have also seen mortars in use, hitting their intended targets.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #137 on: June 03, 2021, 12:53:18 PM »
Actually, no one, anywhere, (that is equivalent to ZERO, by the way, in case you have learned how to count) has demonstrated ICBM's are real.

Source?

Quote
So, it is not tfes.org that has the entire burden.

But go ahead, you try.

Much like unicorns.

Unlike unicorns, there are videos of ICBMs being launched, but don't let that get in the way of a comforting narrative.

Quote
When subjects are broached that are deemed to have no factual basis or supporting evidence, those subjects belong in CN.

Fortunately, your horrendous criteria for what is true and isn't, is not used.

Quote
In this case, everything I have written is true.

Not one person has ever seen a purposefully used ICBM.

Not

One

Person

It is only alleged that ICBM's exist and those allegations comes directly from persons who have a less than stellar record of honesty.

Good thing purposely using an ICBM isn't the ultimate arbiter of their reality.
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #138 on: June 03, 2021, 01:14:02 PM »
Actually, no one, anywhere, (that is equivalent to ZERO, by the way, in case you have learned how to count) has demonstrated ICBM's are real.

Source?
Again, you seem to be struggling.

Those alleging ICBM's are real are responsible for providing a source demonstrating ICBM's are real.
Quote
So, it is not tfes.org that has the entire burden.

But go ahead, you try.

Much like unicorns.

Unlike unicorns, there are videos of ICBMs being launched, but don't let that get in the way of a comforting narrative.
Like this, uh.

Quote
When subjects are broached that are deemed to have no factual basis or supporting evidence, those subjects belong in CN.

Fortunately, your horrendous criteria for what is true and isn't, is not used.
Those are not my criteria.
Quote
In this case, everything I have written is true.

Not one person has ever seen a purposefully used ICBM.

Not

One

Person

It is only alleged that ICBM's exist and those allegations comes directly from persons who have a less than stellar record of honesty.

Good thing purposely using an ICBM isn't the ultimate arbiter of their reality.
It is the only arbiter.

Until then, the best you can write is that you like to subscribe to allegations put forth by known purveyors of bullshit.

Not surprising in the least to those familiar with your MO, I am sure.

Re: FE and ICBMs
« Reply #139 on: June 03, 2021, 01:40:46 PM »
They said paraded missiles were fake. You haven’t come close to showing that all the ICBMs are fake. In fact your own source disagreed with you. You are master of self-owning.
I think the real issue is no one here has come close to demonstrating ICBM's are real, including you.

Until then, it is just a myth propagated by liars.

You have nothing but a bunch of words from known liars, which you love to repeat.

The OP needs to go to CN.

What about Tomahawk missiles? Are they real? Are mortars real?

At what level of technology does the weapon become fake?
When you cannot produce evidence of use, I would suppose.

I have seen Tomahawks in use, hitting their intended targets.

I have also seen mortars in use, hitting their intended targets.


I am perhaps fortunate never to have seen an actual mortar fired, or a Tomahawk hit its target.  Do you have a source for their existence, or is it just your own testimony?