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Offline stack

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2021, 06:56:04 PM »
You'd think nothing has changed since the 1890s with respect to how we can navigate the oceans.  SMH.

Seeing as you have not provided any ship logs, I don't see how you can confidently assume anything.

Umm, your references are from 1741, 1823, 1839, 1845, 1886, 1891, 1898. Here’s what shipping/sailing the high seas looks like literally today, 5/23/2021:



I think we’ve gotten a smidge better at this whole navigation business than a 150+ years ago. Wouldn’t you say?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2021, 06:57:15 PM »
You'd think nothing has changed since the 1890s with respect to how we can navigate the oceans.  SMH.

Seeing as you have not provided any ship logs, I don't see how you can confidently assume anything.

Umm, your references are from 1741, 1823, 1839, 1845, 1886, 1891, 1898. Here’s what shipping/sailing the high seas looks like literally today, 5/23/2021:



I think we’ve gotten a smidge better at this whole navigation business than a 150+ years ago. Wouldn’t you say?

I don't see any ship logs. You've only shown the existence of ships.

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Offline stack

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2021, 07:03:07 PM »
You'd think nothing has changed since the 1890s with respect to how we can navigate the oceans.  SMH.

Seeing as you have not provided any ship logs, I don't see how you can confidently assume anything.

Umm, your references are from 1741, 1823, 1839, 1845, 1886, 1891, 1898. Here’s what shipping/sailing the high seas looks like literally today, 5/23/2021:



I think we’ve gotten a smidge better at this whole navigation business than a 150+ years ago. Wouldn’t you say?

I don't see any ship logs. You've only shown the existence of ships.

You didn't answer the question. Do you think we've gotten better at high seas navigation since 150+ years ago?

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2021, 07:14:46 PM »
You'd think nothing has changed since the 1890s with respect to how we can navigate the oceans.  SMH.

Seeing as you have not provided any ship logs, I don't see how you can confidently assume anything.

Yours is a similar argument to Fedex and UPS international deliveries are fake because we used to use the Pony Express.  Please, continue this line of reasoning.  It's quite entertaining.
Lol "Everyone is Wrong and LiEeInG"
That is a desperate argument from a losing position. An argument from a position of strength would have positive evidence for that position.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2021, 07:25:44 PM »
You didn't answer the question. Do you think we've gotten better at high seas navigation since 150+ years ago?

I don't think things have changed that much in regards to accuracy and speed, no.

On navigation:

https://books.google.com › books ›
The Globalization of Knowledge in History

"Celestial navigation as practiced by the military was not perfected until the invention of the chronometer at the end of the 18th century."

Lowtech Magazine: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/01/satellite-nav-1.html

"More than two centuries ago, it was possible to very accurately pinpoint your position on earth by means of 'satellites'.

Man has navigated across the globe by means of satellites for thousands of years – however, until the mid twentieth century, these were not GPS-satellites, but stars. In reality, the sun and the stars aren’t satellites of the Earth, but celestial navigation is based on a precopernican world view (the earth was believed to be the centre of the universe). This may sound a little outdated, but this system was perfected to such an extent that in the second half of the eighteenth century it was almost as accurate as the present-day GPS. Moreover, it was much more robust."

On cruise ship speeds:

From a 2021article: "The average speed of a cruise ship is 18 to 22 knots (20 to 25 miles per hour). The maximum speed of a cruise ship is around three knots faster than its average cruising speed."

From a CNN article on the Titanic: "At the time, the RMS Titanic was the largest passenger ship afloat. The ship's length was 882 feet, 9 inches, and it weighed 46,328 tons. Its top speed was 23 knots."
« Last Edit: May 23, 2021, 07:32:09 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2021, 08:21:26 PM »
You didn't answer the question. Do you think we've gotten better at high seas navigation since 150+ years ago?

I don't think things have changed that much in regards to accuracy and speed, no.

On navigation:

https://books.google.com › books ›
The Globalization of Knowledge in History

"Celestial navigation as practiced by the military was not perfected until the invention of the chronometer at the end of the 18th century."

Lowtech Magazine: https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/01/satellite-nav-1.html

"More than two centuries ago, it was possible to very accurately pinpoint your position on earth by means of 'satellites'.

Man has navigated across the globe by means of satellites for thousands of years – however, until the mid twentieth century, these were not GPS-satellites, but stars. In reality, the sun and the stars aren’t satellites of the Earth, but celestial navigation is based on a precopernican world view (the earth was believed to be the centre of the universe). This may sound a little outdated, but this system was perfected to such an extent that in the second half of the eighteenth century it was almost as accurate as the present-day GPS. Moreover, it was much more robust."

On cruise ship speeds:

From a 2021article: "The average speed of a cruise ship is 18 to 22 knots (20 to 25 miles per hour). The maximum speed of a cruise ship is around three knots faster than its average cruising speed."

From a CNN article on the Titanic: "At the time, the RMS Titanic was the largest passenger ship afloat. The ship's length was 882 feet, 9 inches, and it weighed 46,328 tons. Its top speed was 23 knots."

Seeing as though none of those articles provide any ships logs they’re pretty meaningless.
Lol "Everyone is Wrong and LiEeInG"
That is a desperate argument from a losing position. An argument from a position of strength would have positive evidence for that position.

Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2021, 09:41:02 PM »

On cruise ship speeds:

From a 2021article: "The average speed of a cruise ship is 18 to 22 knots (20 to 25 miles per hour). The maximum speed of a cruise ship is around three knots faster than its average cruising speed."

From a CNN article on the Titanic: "At the time, the RMS Titanic was the largest passenger ship afloat. The ship's length was 882 feet, 9 inches, and it weighed 46,328 tons. Its top speed was 23 knots."


The difference in passenger ship speeds between the early 20th and 21st Centuries is completely non sequitur, and has no relevance to global distances. 

RMS Titanic and her rivals were the Boeing Dreamliners of their age.  Revenue was attracted by providing the fastest, the most frequent and (ironically) the safest port-to-port passage with the technology available. 

Modern cruise ships, on the other hand, are the RVs of the sea.  Customers want the onboard experience, and don't really care how long it takes between ports.  In fact, the longer the Companies can keep their clientele incarcerated, the more revenue they attract in sales of drink, commodities and gambling. 

One exception is the Queen Mary 2, which was actually built to a traditional liner specification, using modern technology, with the intention of seasonal trans-Atlantic crossings.  Consequently, its cruising and maximum speeds are around 20% better than its rivals, and the Titanic

Offline jimster

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2021, 10:28:42 PM »
In 2001, my company was a sponsor of the Whitbread race (then Volvo, now just the Ocean Race). We provided a computer for Quokka Sports to run a game where people could have their own virtual boat to race against the real boats and we provided the internet infrastructure for each port they stopped in. They sailed from Capetown to Melbourne on one leg, yacht races like the southern ocean because the winds are hihest there, so it is basically a race around Antarctica.

Several people in my department went to each port before they got there to set up, operate, when they left, tear down and ship to next port. They sent me pics at the dock and in the boats.

Sailboats have a hull speed, they can only go so fast (I tried to get a sailboat to go faster than hull speed, it dug the nose in and turned, indeed impossible). The computer game showed their location continuously. The sailboat speed, published distance, and time the trip took all matched perfectly. On any FE map I have seen, the distance is thousands of miles longer and the sailboats would have to go 90 mph to make it.

I conclude that RE distance is accurate, FE is impossible. FEs, where is my mistake?

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Offline RonJ

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2021, 01:49:05 AM »
You'd think nothing has changed since the 1890s with respect to how we can navigate the oceans.  SMH.

Seeing as you have not provided any ship logs, I don't see how you can confidently assume anything.
If it's ship's logs and confidence you seek, then YOU can make it so!  There are some ship locator services out there.  For a monthly fee you can obtain a ship's name, current position, course, and speed.  All this data comes from the same instruments that would also be written into the log by the officer on watch.  All you would have to do is record that data in a paper log once an hour and then wam-bam, thankyou ma'am, you would have about the same data as would be in the ship's log, and with that, plenty of confidence.  I've entered data into a ship's log countless times so I can attest to the accuracy of the data and that the same data is also sent up to one of the INMARSAT birds and relayed back down for use on shore.  I have total confidence in the accuracy of all chart distances.  Now with a little work you can too.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 03:36:37 AM by RonJ »
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Online SteelyBob

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2021, 07:52:26 PM »
These ships seem to have had trouble: https://wiki.tfes.org/Sea_Travel_in_the_South

I'm curious, Tom. In the wiki page there is a quote from Rowbotham's Zetetic Cosmogony which in turn cites W J J Spry's Challenger. Rowbotham claims that the Spry book states the distance from the Cape of Good Hope to Melbourne to be 7637 miles. I've looked at the Spry book (http://www.19thcenturyscience.org/HMSC/HMSC-Reports/1878-Spry/htm/doc.html) and I can't find any mention of that distance. All I can determine is that Challenger's routing between the two places was far from direct - they seemed to venture as far south as the Antarctic. How has Rowbotham come up with that figure?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2021, 08:08:49 PM »
These ships seem to have had trouble: https://wiki.tfes.org/Sea_Travel_in_the_South

I'm curious, Tom. In the wiki page there is a quote from Rowbotham's Zetetic Cosmogony which in turn cites W J J Spry's Challenger. Rowbotham claims that the Spry book states the distance from the Cape of Good Hope to Melbourne to be 7637 miles. I've looked at the Spry book (http://www.19thcenturyscience.org/HMSC/HMSC-Reports/1878-Spry/htm/doc.html) and I can't find any mention of that distance. All I can determine is that Challenger's routing between the two places was far from direct - they seemed to venture as far south as the Antarctic. How has Rowbotham come up with that figure?

Robotham isn't the author of Zetetic Cosmogony. And your problem is that you are expecting us to believe that you read that entire non-searchable book in that link full of jpegs since I posted the link yesterday. You should have waited at least a week or two to make it more believable.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 08:21:55 PM by Tom Bishop »

Online SteelyBob

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Re: How to make an FE map with accurate distances
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2021, 08:21:51 PM »
Robotham isn't the author of Zetetic Cosmogony. And your problem is that you are expecting us to believe that you read that entire non-searchable book in that link full of jpegs since I posted the link yesterday. You should have waited at least a week to make it more believable.

My bad - the website I found Zetetic Cosmogony on lists the author as Rowbotham for some reason. (https://archive.org/details/ZeteticCosmogony/page/n17/mode/2up). Always happy to admit being wrong when proven!

I think you're assuming hostility where there isn't any. I just rather assumed that, since you're quoting the figure yourself, that you would have verified it first. Evidently not.

As for not being able to search that quickly...no, I haven't read the whole book. I did, however, have a look at the start and finish to see if there was a summary of the journey somewhere - there isn't, as far as I can see. The book is arranged chronologically, so I had a quick scan through the relevant chapter - there doesn't seem to be a total distance. And, whilst you can't search on that first website I quoted, you can on this one: http://www.public-library.uk/dailyebook/The%20cruise%20of%20Her%20Majesty%27s%20ship%20Challenger%20(1877).pdf

...and I don't see any references to that figure.

Given that the figure is somewhat central to your argument, could you expend a little energy and figure out where it comes from? A reasonable request, is it not?