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Offline Tom Bishop

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Long Pipe Perspective Experiment
« on: September 02, 2018, 03:52:06 AM »
This is related to the recent thread about Finite Perspective that was closed in the Media Forum. I posted a couple of videos which explain, more or less, how the perspective explanations work in FET. Watch the videos if you are not familiar with the perspective explanations.

I came across a video where a man looks down a long pipe and sees some odd things as he moves his camera around. Runtime: 15 Minutes



At first I thought that he was just moving his camera below the edge of the pipe, and it was being cut off because the edge of the pipe in the foreground was intersecting the exit hole of the pipe on the far end.

However, this does not seem to be the case. We can see that it is not the edge of the pipe cutting through the exit hole. We can still see the pipe leading up to the exit.



Curious.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 04:01:00 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline AATW

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Re: Long Pipe Perspective Experiment
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2018, 10:38:15 AM »
It’s a really strange video. The quality is pretty poor, I think all the video is hand-held. There is no way of telling whether the pipe is perfectly straight or exactly where the camera lens, how the camera is angled.
There’s no calibration, it’s a million miles away from a controlled experiment. The horizon dip experiments which you pooh-poohed were much better designed as experiments.
Good old confirmation bias, eh?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

Re: Long Pipe Perspective Experiment
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2018, 02:31:22 PM »
The camera seems to be lacking the depth of field to get the whole pipe in focus.

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Offline stack

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Re: Long Pipe Perspective Experiment
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2018, 04:49:25 AM »
Curious.

Curious only if we're all walking around looking through a pipe strapped to our faces. I fail to see how this represents any real world observation of the sun dropping below the horizon.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Long Pipe Perspective Experiment
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2018, 07:11:17 AM »
Curious.

Curious only if we're all walking around looking through a pipe strapped to our faces. I fail to see how this represents any real world observation of the sun dropping below the horizon.
I think that if you are looking down the bottom edge of a perfectly straight circular pipe you should be able to see the other end of the pipe as a circle, the bottom shouldn’t be flat. But the “experiment” is so poorly designed and executed there is no way any conclusion can be drawn from it.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Long Pipe Perspective Experiment
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2018, 07:50:02 AM »
I think that if you are looking down the bottom edge of a perfectly straight circular pipe you should be able to see the other end of the pipe as a circle, the bottom shouldn’t be flat. But the “experiment” is so poorly designed and executed there is no way any conclusion can be drawn from it.

What do you think the Flat Earth Perspective explanations say and what do you think is happening in this video?

If you watch the videos referenced in the op, they say that the slightest imperfection to the earth's surface (i.e waves) causes the sinking effect.

Offline wpeszko

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Re: Long Pipe Perspective Experiment
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2018, 03:01:39 PM »
What do you think the Flat Earth Perspective explanations say and what do you think is happening in this video?
In the video the guy is looking through some bent pipes.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Long Pipe Perspective Experiment
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2018, 03:56:58 PM »
What do you think the Flat Earth Perspective explanations say and what do you think is happening in this video?
In the video the guy is looking through some bent pipes.

I agree. Tiny imperfections can magnify, validating the explanations in Earth Not a Globe.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Long Pipe Perspective Experiment
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2018, 04:34:24 PM »
The imperfection looks like a "bulge" to me, as in the pipe is not flat. It's curved.



I'd shoot a laser level down the pipe to check.

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Offline AATW

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Re: Long Pipe Perspective Experiment
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2018, 10:14:22 PM »
What do you think the Flat Earth Perspective explanations say and what do you think is happening in this video?

Rowbotham claims that when you watch someone go away from you along a flat path that the bottom of them disappears first, but he just does that Rowbotham thing of just claiming it and saying that is what he observed. Does he cite any controlled experiments about this?

As for what is happening in the video, as I said it's such poor quality video, all hand held and shaky and there's no callibration of where the camera is, whether the pipe is straight and so on so it's impossible to be sure. Best guess is what Bobby said, the pipe is not properly straight.

If you watch the videos referenced in the op, they say that the slightest imperfection to the earth's surface (i.e waves) causes the sinking effect.

In real life though if light travels in straight lines then in order for you to see something you need a clear line of sight to it. So if there is an elephant in the distance and a dime or other object in between you and said elephant then how much of the elephant you see depends on the heights of the elephant and obstable, the height of your eye and the relative distances of the elephant and obstable:



Three scenarios are shown in the above:

1) Eye level below obstacle height.
Your eye is pretty much on the ground. The photons from the top of the elephant - and therefore everywhere else on the elephant - will hit the obstable so the red line from the elephant should actually stop at the obstable. I've continued the line to make it clear what the viewer height is but you won't see the elephant in that scenario.
More of the elephant than the obstacle height is hidden.

2) Eye level at obstacle height
In this scenario your eye height is that of the obstacle, photons from the level of the obstacle and above have a clear path to your eye so you see part of the elephant, everything above the height of the obstacle.
The amount of the elephant that is hidden is the obstacle height.

3) Eye level above obstacle height
In this scenario you are looking over the obstacle, photons from as low on the elephant as can pass over the obstacle to your eye in a straight line will be seen.
Less of the elephant than the obstacle height is hidden. If the eye level is sufficiently high then you will see all of the elephant.

This is why the explanation about sunset doesn't work. Even if we accept that at sea level waves could get in between you and the sun thus causing it to block the sunlight, at any reasonable altitude you would be looking over the waves and easily be able to see a sun several thousand miles above the surface of a flat earth.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Long Pipe Perspective Experiment
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2018, 12:28:26 AM »

This is why the explanation about sunset doesn't work. Even if we accept that at sea level waves could get in between you and the sun thus causing it to block the sunlight, at any reasonable altitude you would be looking over the waves and easily be able to see a sun several thousand miles above the surface of a flat earth.

Right; at least if light follows straight lines. The smaller the obstacle, the closer to the observer it has to be. If it's a dime, it can't be down the pipe. Its impact will become less and less with distance. It's all about the angle.

Remember our Turning Torso tower?



For an imperfection to block the lower portion of the structure, it has to start out being at least the height of eye/camera, and the further away, the taller it has to be to produce the "cut off." Looking through that pipe, if it's straight and there is no "bulge" due to bending, then for tiny imperfections to produce that lower cut, they must be close to the camera lens. Perspective doesn't magnify the dime when it's far away. To hide the elephant it has to be close to the eye and the elephant at a proportional distance away. (Reminds me of the [urlhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ahZDmqEQQ]Kids in the Hall skit of the guy threatening "I'm crushing your heads."[/url])

But that's if light follows a straight path. Suppose light is bent or curved upward?



In that case, with the right amount of bending, the dime CAN be further down the pipe and serve as an obstruction. With enough bending you don't even need a dime. The ground itself will be the obstruction as the curved light at a certain angle will not make it to the eye. (Under the right conditions, such upward bending light could cause an inferior mirage.)

That's the concept EAT suggests for the "cut off" effect. Or, if not EAT, the sub-refraction where the air has an inverse density gradient, rarer lower and denser higher.

The weird thing about refracting upward though, is why that would be so universal? Is there an inversion layer in the pipe? Did the increased distance sightings of the Turning Torso just happen to coincide with a meteorological rapid change in the inverted gradient of the air so that the building would be cut off as if earth curvature was doing the cutting off?

But the oddest thing about it is why does it just stop at a given height? If upward bending light is the reason, then the portion of the object above the cut-off would appear stretched, distorted by the still upward bending light, albeit tapering perhaps. Still, as I mentioned with EAT, (and JTolen in his San Jacinto IR analysis affirms), light bending upward would cause a stretching or towering effect on what is left visible, at least near the cut-off. At least with the Tower Torse, the exact opposite is happening. The first few floors above the cut are squashed with the distortion tapering with height above the squash. This suggest light near the cut is actually refracting downward. The sun, too, will "squash" at the horizon as it begins to get cut off. This is explained by refraction bending light downward to follow the (alleged) curve of the earth. If light were being bent upwards, the sun would elongate, not squash.

As for the pipe, I say it's a "bulge" of the pipe bending convex. It may be rigid PVC, but those long, thick PVC pipes aren't so stiff they won't bend a little under pressure or weight. All it takes is a little. It would be easy to check with a laser level.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 12:33:15 AM by Bobby Shafto »