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Messages - Dr Van Nostrand

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241
We don't yet know what AJ's ultimate defense to these charges will be but his first defensive action was struck down just a couple of hours ago. The judge in Austin, TX (AJ has other suits in different jurisdictions) just denied Alex Jones request to throw the case out based on freedom of speech. No one really expected this defense to hold up. Freedom of speech does not mean you are free to say whatever you want about other people.

If AJ's defense will be built on the idea that Sandy Hook really did not happen (truth defense.) If he tries to say that the conspiracy is real, he will have to first overcome all the prima facia evidence in witness accounts, hospital reports and death certificates. In that eventuality, his evidence might have to include something radical like exhuming the bodies of the shooting victims to show they don't exist. I can't think of what he could use as evidence to prove his case.

And yes, Pete said it, getting sued is not the same as getting convicted (losing the lawsuit.) Getting a lawsuit in motion doesn't even mean it has any merit at all. Unfortunately, in America, even if you are innocent you still have to mount a legal defense against a lawsuit that could cost thousands of dollars. If Elon Musk sends a 200 foot tall Lawyerzilla after someone, being innocent won't be enough to protect them.

I don't really think any of this will ever affect the (well-moderated, civil) TFES community. It could affect the more radical Youtubers someday.




242
Truth is an absolute legal defense to slander or libel charges.
As is honesty and belief that the person accused of defamation is disclosing information in the public interest, regardless of merit or soundness of their claims. I doubt any case concerning FE would revolve around the soundness of FE, but rather whether or not the accused believed she was acting in the public interest.

In the USofA, the most hilarious of legal systems, matters become even more difficult - a public person who believes she has been defamed has to prove that the defamatory statement was published with knowledge of its falsehood.

Naaaactually, it's not that simple as Alex Jones of Infowars is currently finding out.

Your opinion is protected. If you say, "It is my opinion that Astronaut Zeb is a buffoon with ears like a donkey." that is your opinion and it is protected.
But if you say, "It is my opinion that on April 12th, Astronaut Zeb lied about his participation in a 2016 space flight." that is an accusation.

Also, you can be held liable for reposting defamation even if you thought is was true.

In a brief for the Alex Jones case a first amendment scholar wrote,"It (posting opinion as facts) would allow unscrupulous news organizations to couch their language as opinion and mask their meaning with implication and insinuation. That would leave readers clear as to the message but avoiding all liability for defamatory remarks. This should not be allowed and is not allowed."

One day, an FE youtuber may go too far talking smack about Elon Musk and he will send a horde of zombie lawyers to lay waste to everything in their path.

In America, you can be sued for anything at anytime no matter how ridiculous the cause.




243
If the deliberate falsehood is being said about a specific person then slander laws come into play.

Truth is an absolute legal defense to slander or libel charges.

This could conceivably become an issue for the FE community. It is a fundamental part of the FE ideology that all the astronauts are liars. They will tell anyone associated with aerospace technology that they are flat-out lying about their experience of the round earth. When FEs call a specific astronaut or astronomer a liar, they could be subject to legal action. The subsequent court case would hinge on the truth of flat vs globe.

It's not hard to imagine some NASA astronauts filing a class action lawsuit for defamation against some prominent FE proponent. Actual damages would be hard to show but there could be emotional distress of the astronaut's children or family. Depending on the jurisdiction, punitive damages may come into play.

The truth of FE claims would be tested in court.

244
I find this difficult to get enthusiastic about for several reasons.

1) These people don't like us. We are 'controlled opposition' and trolls and whatever else they think of on the day. Now I'm pretty sure if TFES was controlled opposition, you and me would be on the payroll by now, Tom. We'd have a least had a memo. So when I know they are talking rubbish from the get go, its hard to support.
2) A large portion of their content is toxic. Its a poo flinging contest. Its kind of nice to take the moral high ground and not be dragged into it. A lot of the top FE creators are very weird indeed. Patricia whatshername and that guy who desperately wants to have sex with her. Matt 'I've got 24 hours to save the world Boylan', Lord Steven Christ who not only thinks the earth is flat but that he is the son of God and makes regular demands to be Pope, Eric 'gas the Jews' Dubay ... these people are 2 stars short of a constellation.
3) These people are going to get zapped ... and if their content is all over our site, we are going to be collateral damage. If we started hosting Alex Jones and Tommy Robinson videos, what do you think would happen to our google rank? Its going to be the same with these FE videos.
4) This isn't our fight.

I think these people should be able to say what they want, I think they should allow market forces to dictate what people watch, I think the governments should keep their noses out of online content. But I don't think TFES should be nominating itself to help a youtube community that has from the outset made it clear they want nothing to do with us.


Wow! Thork comes through.  Good stuff....


But Tom's opposing point is also very valid. This conflict is often at the very heart of a religion  or political party.
"How do we deal with the extreme edges of our own ideology?"

The current discussion boils it down nicely. "Those people are NOT us but if their freaky extremism creates interest in us, it's not a bad thing."


Be aware, right now the extremists are merely an embarrassment. If any of them start to talk about using violence to reveal the conspiracy, it will behoove TFES to denounce them openly.  (right?)





245
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Reliability of senses
« on: August 27, 2018, 02:47:22 PM »
Is stating that us just looking at stuff is evidence. And sometimes it is, but let's take those examples one by one:

The world looks flat - that isn't evidence either for or against a flat earth.
It certainly is evidence for a flat earth.

If I wrote I saw this (while I was at the zoo or in Australia):

there would be no hesitation on your part to accept that statement as evidence I sensed and winessed the appearance of a kangaroo.
The bottoms of clouds are flat - not even sure that one is true, even if it is I don't know what bearing that would have on the shape of the earth.
The bottoms of clouds are not always flat:

but for the most part, they are.

You are correct I believe as far as what impact this does or not have in terms of earth shape.
The movement of the sun - this one is ironic given that a core FE belief is UA which is used as a substitute for gravity, the claim being that it would be indistinguishable from gravity (true in many ways but the Cavendish experiment is demonstration of gravity as a force). Point being the exact same thing applies here. The sun moving across the sky would look exactly the same if the sun went round a stationary earth or the earth rotates and the sun remains still (relatively, let's not go down that rabbit hole).
UA is not a core belief of FE.
None of these things are evidence for or against a flat earth. And the horizon always at eye level page is basically one long "well, it looks like it's at eye level, so it is". Case closed! No controlled experiments are outlined on that page. Yes, if we do a controlled experiment we are using our senses to look at the results but that's not the same as just looking at the horizon, figuring it looks pretty much at eye level and saying that is evidence for it being AT eye level regardless of altitude.

There seems to be an emphasis of what you can perceive rather than what you can measure.
I disagree as I have personally measured the altitude of the sun over the flat earth.



I'd have no problem accepting your evidence that you photographed a kangaroo unless you tried to tell me it was an alligator, a fish or a hyper-intelligent alien being from another dimension.

A bag inflated with hydrogen gas looks empty unless we move beyond our senses. The world looks flat unless we move beyond our senses.

We don't have the capacity to sense every aspect of the world around us.

Doesn't it seem arrogant to think that any one of us can comprehend all of reality by looking out a window?

246
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Flat Earth Model
« on: August 25, 2018, 05:53:21 PM »
Wow!

Excellent mechanics. Leave it to a Globehead to do real FE science.

If they could just get past that annoying issue with the existence of the South Pole.

 

247
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Is Greenland as big as Africa?
« on: August 25, 2018, 01:18:35 PM »
Assuming the earth is flat, google maps is not accurate and shouldn't be used by flat earthers.  Why not use Gleason's map, for example?

It’s my understanding that all FE maps are globe projections. This includes the mono-polar, bi-polar and Gleason maps, as well as others. In essence, there’s no such thing as an FE map.

It's actually the other way around. There's no such thing as globular maps. Any globes you see are simply globular projections of a flat earth.


So producing a map of the flat earth that accurately locates and sizes the continents in the Southern Hemisphere along with time zones and distances across the Antarctic should be no problem right?

Yes, the UN uses it as its primary symbol these days.


I don't want to be accused of misrepresenting anyone else's position.

Are you saying that the UN Logo is an accurate representation of the sizing and location of the major continents?

Do you believe the UN would choose an inaccurate map as their primary logo?

Awesome question...

I believe the UN logo is a stylized image of an azimuth projection used for cosmetic effect, like the Pepsi logo or the Nike swoosh.
That's what I believe.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not sure you've been clear.
You believe the UN logo is the physical map of the flat earth revealing the fact that the distance from Perth to Brisbane is twice the distance of NYC to Sacramento (a secret they've kept for centuries.)

We all understand that there is disagreement in the FET community on this level of detail. We are all entitled to our opinions in areas of disagreement.



 






248
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Is Greenland as big as Africa?
« on: August 24, 2018, 09:54:02 PM »
Assuming the earth is flat, google maps is not accurate and shouldn't be used by flat earthers.  Why not use Gleason's map, for example?

It’s my understanding that all FE maps are globe projections. This includes the mono-polar, bi-polar and Gleason maps, as well as others. In essence, there’s no such thing as an FE map.

It's actually the other way around. There's no such thing as globular maps. Any globes you see are simply globular projections of a flat earth.


So producing a map of the flat earth that accurately locates and sizes the continents in the Southern Hemisphere along with time zones and distances across the Antarctic should be no problem right?

Yes, the UN uses it as its primary symbol these days.


I don't want to be accused of misrepresenting anyone else's position.

Are you saying that the UN Logo is an accurate representation of the sizing and location of the major continents?

249
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Is Greenland as big as Africa?
« on: August 24, 2018, 08:20:00 PM »
Assuming the earth is flat, google maps is not accurate and shouldn't be used by flat earthers.  Why not use Gleason's map, for example?

It’s my understanding that all FE maps are globe projections. This includes the mono-polar, bi-polar and Gleason maps, as well as others. In essence, there’s no such thing as an FE map.

It's actually the other way around. There's no such thing as globular maps. Any globes you see are simply globular projections of a flat earth.


So producing a map of the flat earth that accurately locates and sizes the continents in the Southern Hemisphere along with time zones and distances across the Antarctic should be no problem right?


250
Flat Earth Theory / Re: The Ice Wall
« on: August 24, 2018, 01:52:35 PM »
I've seen some ice walls and I've seen pictures of ice walls posted by the FE community.

I've never seen a picture of 'THE' ice wall.



Of course, the FET answer is, :How can you prove it's not 'THE' ice wall you see in the picture? (Answer: how can you prove it is?)

251
Flat Earth Theory / Re: RET - The Single Biome Universe
« on: August 23, 2018, 04:59:44 PM »
You people's persistent refusal to even acknowledge, let alone address, it is genuinely sickening given how you claim to be the scientifically enlightened. I have repeated these questions, and none of you have even attempted to answer them, preferring instead to just ignore, to just handwave, to just pretend that I never gave it.

Ok... even though I'm not "you people," I'll take a swing at this.

How do you know there aren't yellow rocks on Mars? You're only looking at the surface covered in some kind of iron oxide dust. We've detected methane, water and all kinds of stuff that we're just now finding.

How do you know what colors the Venusian surface should be? The cloudy atmosphere filters out light of certain wavelengths so we don't see true colors.

Outside of sci-fi movies no one believes in single biome planets. Even the moons of Jupiter have ice, oceans and volcanic activity.

Smaller celestial bodies subject to more extreme conditions usually show the most uniformity which makes sense. If you pick up a single rock, it will be the same all over. If you go to a rock quarry, you'll find all kinds of variations.


But as someone pointed out earlier, you main issue is that the planets don't appear as your 'common sense' expects them to.



252
I'm confused, the title talks about religious biases, but none of the examples you put forward have mentioned religion; our wiki doesn't mention religion as a basis for our theories, either. What sort of religious bias are you specifically referring to?

I noticed that too. But, I think if you interpret the word 'religious' as accepting something merely on faith, the post works. It would say that the FET community accepts certain principles simply given as matters of faith based on their personal perceptions. They could argue it that way.

253
Flat Earth Community / Re: Is FET Dangerous?
« on: August 22, 2018, 02:57:26 PM »
I wouldn't say the ideology itself is dangerous. There are people who believe Islam is a dangerous belief due to the actions of terrorist. There are racial hate groups in America that base there beliefs in their reading of the Christian Bible.  I don't think that makes the ideas dangerous.

The danger from FET comes from individuals associated with it. How long before someone (from 'the other forum') shows up at the Johnson Space Center with a rifle demanding the truth and the release of flat earthers held in capitivity. Just like the pizza-gate conspiracy freak, when no hidden truth is found, the incident will be labelled by conspiracy theorists as a 'false flag' operation to discredit FET.

It could be even darker. Imagine a group of FET extremists (who genuinely think that their fellow believers have been abducted by NASA) storming the JPL in California alla Cliven Bundy style.


If I have a concern about the ideology, it is that it makes it ok to disregard physical facts in place of whatever a person chooses to believe. This is a serious problem in America where people now believe whatever they want and call anything that challenges their belief fake news or alternative facts. People believe whatever they want even if it's advertising BS, Russian disinformation or political propaganda.

They disregard reality and call it 'free-thinking'.

254
Flat Earth Community / Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« on: August 22, 2018, 01:40:15 PM »
I'm here to read about Moonshrimp, domes and the ice wall. Let's not get started on those penguins!
You must have mistaken us for other similarly-named communities. Ones which are not particularly sincere or serious.

Yeah... it is true that this forum doesn't seem as freaky as 'the other forum.' I'll be doing a profile there soon.  It took me a while to understand who's just trolling and who really believes. It turns out there are some people on the edge  of the FET community that are full-on Domed Matrix Moonshrimpers. I think the extreme edges of anything are often the most interesting.

Still, I want to thank the tfes for allowing such acid dissidence in their home. I've seen other FET communities that moderate out any non-FET opinions. TFES shows integrity to let your words stand on their own openly for critique. The FET sites and Youtubers that don't allow free discussion are guilty of the very censorship they accuse NASA of. It is the height of hypocrisy.


255
Flat Earth Community / Re: RE believers - why are you here?
« on: August 21, 2018, 08:49:30 PM »
I've been following the flat earth movement for a couple of years and have been lurking here for a while. At first, it was curiosity. I wondered where the ideology came from (not historically as in Robotham but the recent resurgence.)

Was there some recent astronomical discovery that could be interpreted as supporting FET?

Was this the work of Russian troll farms spreading disinformation? After all, it is in Russia's best interest that other nations are so technologically backwards that they are bamboozled by simple things like gravity or the size of the Australian continent.

The more I read, the more fascinating I found it to be. Also, it's very topical now as so many Americans decide to believe 'alternative facts' that have no basis in reality but are so appealing that they will disregard reality in favor of whatever they choose to believe.

I am what the FET community labels 'an evil shill.' That is that I have experienced enough travel and technology that I have first hand knowledge of all the things the FET people claim are fake. I've worked with NASA and NOAA, the Evil Empire of FET thought. Their only answer to people like me is to call me a liar. If people are going to talk trash about me, I want to read about it.

They can call me all the names they want. I'm here to read about Moonshrimp, domes and the ice wall. Let's not get started on those penguins!






256
Flat Earth Theory / Re: RET - The Single Biome Universe
« on: August 21, 2018, 06:00:40 PM »
Single biome planets are a Sci-fi cliche just like alien planets that speak english

257
Flat Earth Community / Re: Is it irrational to believe Flat Earth?
« on: August 20, 2018, 07:34:16 PM »
It would be completely rational to believe in the flat earth in the days when we didn't have the capacity to know what the earth was really like.

Since Zettys only believe what they experience personally (what they test personally, what they see personally), they won't have the capacity to know anything beyond themselves. In an existence that stretches far beyond what we as individuals can sense, they can believe whatever they choose and consider it rational.


 

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