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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Lord Dave on August 01, 2019, 04:12:12 PM

Title: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 01, 2019, 04:12:12 PM
Ok Lackey, present your evidence.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 01, 2019, 04:14:38 PM
Government interference is to be blamed for high costs in any industry.

Government interference via regulations prohibits true competition, and as evidenced by recent deregulation in many areas, stifles economic growth.

There is no reason to believe otherwise.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 01, 2019, 04:24:56 PM
Government interference is to be blamed for high costs in any industry.

Government interference via regulations prohibits true competition, and as evidenced by recent deregulation in many areas, stifles economic growth.

There is no reason to believe otherwise.

I'm waiting for evidence.  What regulations prevented competition?  How did they prevent competition as regulations themselves don't stifle such things usually.  And why would the pharma companies WANT more competition? 
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 01, 2019, 04:28:21 PM
Government interference is to be blamed for high costs in any industry.

Government interference via regulations prohibits true competition, and as evidenced by recent deregulation in many areas, stifles economic growth.

There is no reason to believe otherwise.

I'm waiting for evidence.  What regulations prevented competition?  How did they prevent competition as regulations themselves don't stifle such things usually.  And why would the pharma companies WANT more competition?
The very nature of the word "regulation," speaks to stifling.

Pharma companies do not want competition.

Neither do oil companies.

Hence they lobby government officials to enact regulations prohibiting competition. Via the EPA and FDA.
A start up finds it cost prohibitive to even consider jumping through these types of hoops.

Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 01, 2019, 04:46:56 PM
1. Please name a regulation.
2. They lobby against regulations. 
3. None of this explains the increased cost unless you say that all doctors, hospitals, and pharmasudical companies inflate their prices at the same time.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 02, 2019, 10:31:01 AM
1. Please name a regulation.
Pick one of any.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730786/
2. They lobby against regulations.
Which ones?
 
3. None of this explains the increased cost unless you say that all doctors, hospitals, and pharmasudical companies inflate their prices at the same time.
Have you an example where they do not?
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Rushy on August 02, 2019, 11:41:55 PM
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that healthcare costs skyrocketed at unprecedented rates right as the Affordable Care Act was passed.

Edit: this is wrong
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Rama Set on August 03, 2019, 12:57:48 AM
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that healthcare costs skyrocketed at unprecedented rates right as the Affordable Care Act was passed.

The data I love led at show a fairly steady increase of government healthcare costs with the biggest spikes in the last 20 years coming during Reagan/Bush years then again in 2003 and in 2009.  The inflation of healthcare costs reached a 40 year low during the Obama administration. When you say healthcare costs skyrocketed at an unprecedented rate, what do you mean? Can you cite the data you are looking at?
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: timterroo on August 03, 2019, 02:30:41 AM
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that healthcare costs skyrocketed at unprecedented rates right as the Affordable Care Act was passed.

This had nothing to do with increasing healthcare costs. The costs have been steadily rising since the late 70s early 80s.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-spending-healthcare-changed-time/#item-total-health-expenditures-have-increased-substantially-over-the-past-several-decades_2017

Health care makes up roughly 80% of the GDP. That means our economy is supported by healthcare. Do you think there is any incentive to decrease costs based on these profit margins? What would happen to wallstreet if healthcare suddenly became free?
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Rushy on August 03, 2019, 02:31:49 AM
I'm sure it's just a coincidence that healthcare costs skyrocketed at unprecedented rates right as the Affordable Care Act was passed.

The data I love led at show a fairly steady increase of government healthcare costs with the biggest spikes in the last 20 years coming during Reagan/Bush years then again in 2003 and in 2009.  The inflation of healthcare costs reached a 40 year low during the Obama administration. When you say healthcare costs skyrocketed at an unprecedented rate, what do you mean? Can you cite the data you are looking at?

You are correct, healthcare costs did in fact not skyrocket after the ACA passed per https://www.cms.gov/research-statistics-data-and-systems/statistics-trends-and-reports/nationalhealthexpenddata/nationalhealthaccountshistorical.html

I'm sure it's just a coincidence that healthcare costs skyrocketed at unprecedented rates right as the Affordable Care Act was passed.

This had nothing to do with increasing healthcare costs. The costs have been steadily rising since the late 70s early 80s.

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-spending-healthcare-changed-time/#item-total-health-expenditures-have-increased-substantially-over-the-past-several-decades_2017

Health care makes up roughly 80% of the GDP. That means our economy is supported by healthcare. Do you think there is any incentive to decrease costs based on these profit margins? What would happen to wallstreet if healthcare suddenly became free?

You're right about the data. As far as Wall Street is concerned: the government paying for something doesn't make it free. There's plenty of companies that subsist entirely off milking taxpayer money from the government. The entire defense sector, for example.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Rama Set on August 03, 2019, 03:26:37 AM
Americans pay more for healthcare than anyone else.  either let the government handle it, or don't, but right now it's perfectly set for corporations to milk it.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 03, 2019, 07:49:09 AM
1. Please name a regulation.
Pick one of any.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730786/
2. They lobby against regulations.
Which ones?
 
3. None of this explains the increased cost unless you say that all doctors, hospitals, and pharmasudical companies inflate their prices at the same time.
Have you an example where they do not?

You didn't read the article, did you?  It very well contradicts your entire argument.  Good job.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 05, 2019, 12:32:57 PM
Government interference is to be blamed for high costs in any industry.

Government interference via regulations prohibits true competition, and as evidenced by recent deregulation in many areas, stifles economic growth.

There is no reason to believe otherwise.
Government interference is to be blamed for high costs in any industry.

Government interference via regulations prohibits true competition, and as evidenced by recent deregulation in many areas, stifles economic growth.

There is no reason to believe otherwise.
I'm waiting for evidence.  What regulations prevented competition?  How did they prevent competition as regulations themselves don't stifle such things usually.  And why would the pharma companies WANT more competition? 
Government interference is to be blamed for high costs in any industry.

Government interference via regulations prohibits true competition, and as evidenced by recent deregulation in many areas, stifles economic growth.

There is no reason to believe otherwise.

I'm waiting for evidence.  What regulations prevented competition?  How did they prevent competition as regulations themselves don't stifle such things usually.  And why would the pharma companies WANT more competition?
The very nature of the word "regulation," speaks to stifling.

Pharma companies do not want competition.

Neither do oil companies.

Hence they lobby government officials to enact regulations prohibiting competition. Via the EPA and FDA.
A start up finds it cost prohibitive to even consider jumping through these types of hoops.
1. Please name a regulation.
Pick one of any.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730786/ (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2730786/)
2. They lobby against regulations. 
3. None of this explains the increased cost unless you say that all doctors, hospitals, and pharmasudical companies inflate their prices at the same time.
Have you an example where they do not?
You didn't read the article, did you?  It very well contradicts your entire argument.  Good job.
I did read the article.

Nothing contradictory.

But you seem to think: "The array of regulations that govern health care can seem overwhelming to people who work in the industry. Almost every aspect of the field is overseen by one regulatory body or another, and sometimes by several. Health care professionals may feel that they spend more time complying with rules that direct their work than actually doing the work itself." ...doesn't serve to jack up costs...

Or

"However, the present regulatory structure is neither uniform nor consistent. A broad range of regulatory bodies and programs apply in different ways to various aspects of the industry. Health care regulations are developed and enforced by all levels of government—federal, state, and local—and also by a large assortment of private organizations. At times, they operate without coordination."...these inconsistencies and non-uniform applications are simply designed to make things easier...
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 05, 2019, 02:09:54 PM
First this:

"The origins of this complex system lie in a series of turf wars between opposing interests that have been waged in one form or another over the past 150 years."
Which tells me it didn't start in the 90s. 

Then This.
"Rather than hindering its progress, the complex system of regulation, for all of its flaws, may actually have served to support and nurture the overall enterprise."

And really, the whole thing fails to discuss prices.  The conclusion he comes is that health regulation is good.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 05, 2019, 03:39:08 PM
First this:

"The origins of this complex system lie in a series of turf wars between opposing interests that have been waged in one form or another over the past 150 years."
Which tells me it didn't start in the 90s.
Well, regulation certainly didn't start in the 90's.

But when did healthcare became the in vogue topic of the day?

Answer- the 90's. 

Then This.
"Rather than hindering its progress, the complex system of regulation, for all of its flaws, may actually have served to support and nurture the overall enterprise."

And really, the whole thing fails to discuss prices.  The conclusion he comes is that health regulation is good.
IF you like high prices...

Which side are you arguing again?
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Rama Set on August 05, 2019, 08:01:24 PM
First this:

"The origins of this complex system lie in a series of turf wars between opposing interests that have been waged in one form or another over the past 150 years."
Which tells me it didn't start in the 90s.
Well, regulation certainly didn't start in the 90's.

But when did healthcare became the in vogue topic of the day?

Answer- the 90's. 

No. You can find politicians campaigning on healthcare in the early 20th century.

Quote
IF you like high prices...

Which side are you arguing again?

Healthcare costs per person are higher in the US than anywhere else. Countries with highly regulated socialized medicine, like Sweden are half of what they are in the USA.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 06, 2019, 06:10:53 AM
First this:

"The origins of this complex system lie in a series of turf wars between opposing interests that have been waged in one form or another over the past 150 years."
Which tells me it didn't start in the 90s.
Well, regulation certainly didn't start in the 90's.

But when did healthcare became the in vogue topic of the day?

Answer- the 90's. 
Hold on, let me fact check that...

Lets see... 1933(FDR), 1949(Truman), oh, 1965 which created medicare and medicaid, a few times by Ted Kennedy, Nixon and Carter.  The. Clinton tried but failed.  Then Obama.

Huh.  So it didn't start in the 90s.  You did mean 1990 not 1890, right?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28339426/


Quote
IF you like high prices...

Which side are you arguing again?

The side I have now.  Which is me having about a 30% income tax for my bracket (about $45k/year), a co-pay of $30 per hospital or doctor visit(unless referred by another doctor), pay for items used for medical procedures(casts, stitches, bandages, etc...), free hospital stays, can choose any doctor so long as they have an opening, medicine is alot cheaper too and after paying about $260 a year, any further medication is paid for by the state.

All in all, its much cheaper.  And heavily regulated.

Oh and our population is smaller than the pop of NYC so not a lot of income compared to America.  Oh and we have a budget surplus and a ton of money in savings.  Ya know, fyi.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Chicken Fried Clucker on August 06, 2019, 06:52:16 AM
The government. They are bought and paid for by the pharmaceutical industry (and many other industries)...

Is there really anything else to add to that?
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 06, 2019, 10:14:55 AM
First this:

"The origins of this complex system lie in a series of turf wars between opposing interests that have been waged in one form or another over the past 150 years."
Which tells me it didn't start in the 90s.
Well, regulation certainly didn't start in the 90's.

But when did healthcare became the in vogue topic of the day?

Answer- the 90's. 
Hold on, let me fact check that...

Lets see... 1933(FDR), 1949(Truman), oh, 1965 which created medicare and medicaid, a few times by Ted Kennedy, Nixon and Carter.  The. Clinton tried but failed.  Then Obama.

Huh.  So it didn't start in the 90s.  You did mean 1990 not 1890, right?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28339426/
If you read my post again, I stated, "...in vogue topic."

1933-in vogue topic...fact check for you...world wide Great Depression, Hitler...not health care...

1949 - in vogue topic...fact check for you...The Marshall Plan...Cold War commencement...Korean Peninsula...not health care...

Medicare and Medicaid not dominant subject topic during the 60's...Vietnam War, Charles Manson, burning bras, Abby Hoffman...

Clinton HIPAA, piling on costs...

Obama ACA, "...we will need to pass it to see what is in it..."
Quote
IF you like high prices...

Which side are you arguing again?
The side I have now.  Which is me having about a 30% income tax for my bracket (about $45k/year), a co-pay of $30 per hospital or doctor visit(unless referred by another doctor), pay for items used for medical procedures(casts, stitches, bandages, etc...), free hospital stays, can choose any doctor so long as they have an opening, medicine is alot cheaper too and after paying about $260 a year, any further medication is paid for by the state.

All in all, its much cheaper.  And heavily regulated.

Oh and our population is smaller than the pop of NYC so not a lot of income compared to America.  Oh and we have a budget surplus and a ton of money in savings.  Ya know, fyi.
Yeah, we will see...the way I hear things, Norway is going broke buster...

Just in case you missed it...nothing is free, last I checked...
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 06, 2019, 10:16:40 AM
First this:

"The origins of this complex system lie in a series of turf wars between opposing interests that have been waged in one form or another over the past 150 years."
Which tells me it didn't start in the 90s.
Well, regulation certainly didn't start in the 90's.

But when did healthcare became the in vogue topic of the day?

Answer- the 90's. 

No. You can find politicians campaigning on healthcare in the early 20th century.

Quote
IF you like high prices...

Which side are you arguing again?

Healthcare costs per person are higher in the US than anywhere else. Countries with highly regulated socialized medicine, like Sweden are half of what they are in the USA.
People who want actual health care still come to the US to get it.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Rama Set on August 06, 2019, 10:45:32 AM
En vogue topics for the 1990s were “not having sexual relations”, the wars in the Baltic states, WTC bombing, Whitewater.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 06, 2019, 10:53:10 AM
En vogue topics for the 1990s were “not having sexual relations”, the wars in the Baltic states, WTC bombing, Whitewater.
HIPAA was highly en vogue, much more than any other era health related topics.

24/7 news cycle came into being, remember.

HIPAA added a tremendous amount of cost to health care.

I am not surprised to learn none of you wish to cede this point.

There was an act in 45 preventing outside competition from other insurance providers, which none of the presidents (except maybe Trump, perhaps) has sought to overturn.

If government gets out of the business altogether, things will no doubt get cheaper.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Rama Set on August 06, 2019, 11:47:16 AM
En vogue topics for the 1990s were “not having sexual relations”, the wars in the Baltic states, WTC bombing, Whitewater.
HIPAA was highly en vogue, much more than any other era health related topics.

Evidence?

Quote
24/7 news cycle came into being, remember.

HIPAA added a tremendous amount of cost to health care.

I am not surprised to learn none of you wish to cede this point.

You haven’t provided any evidence, Dave has. Provide some evidence.

Quote
There was an act in 45 preventing outside competition from other insurance providers, which none of the presidents (except maybe Trump, perhaps) has sought to overturn.

He’s as corporatist a president as any other.

Quote
If government gets out of the business altogether, things will no doubt get cheaper.

Maybe. I hope for you me sake it’s the case.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 06, 2019, 11:56:55 AM
En vogue topics for the 1990s were “not having sexual relations”, the wars in the Baltic states, WTC bombing, Whitewater.
HIPAA was highly en vogue, much more than any other era health related topics.

24/7 news cycle came into being, remember.

HIPAA added a tremendous amount of cost to health care.

I am not surprised to learn none of you wish to cede this point.

Evidence?
My personal experience here in the US.

Neither you nor Dave live in the US.
You haven’t provided any evidence, Dave has. Provide some evidence.
You ignoring the evidence doesn't mean it hasn't been provided.

I provided a link to an article stating exactly how regulation can lead to higher costs.

In this very post, I provided you with the act written in 1945...prohibiting insurance company competition.
Quote
There was an act in 45 preventing outside competition from other insurance providers, which none of the presidents (except maybe Trump, perhaps) has sought to overturn.

He’s as corporatist a president as any other.
Who has given indications he isn't producing corporatist results.

Quote
If government gets out of the business altogether, things will no doubt get cheaper.

Maybe. I hope for you me sake it’s the case.
Every once in a while, you end up writing something truthful..
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Rama Set on August 06, 2019, 12:17:18 PM
En vogue topics for the 1990s were “not having sexual relations”, the wars in the Baltic states, WTC bombing, Whitewater.
HIPAA was highly en vogue, much more than any other era health related topics.

24/7 news cycle came into being, remember.

HIPAA added a tremendous amount of cost to health care.

I am not surprised to learn none of you wish to cede this point.

Evidence?
My personal experience here in the US.

That’s not evidence. You haven’t accounted for your bias of living through one time vs another. Anecdotes in general are garbage evidence.

Quote
Neither you nor Dave live in the US.

So what?
Quote
You haven’t provided any evidence, Dave has. Provide some evidence.
You ignoring the evidence doesn't mean it hasn't been provided.

I provided a link to an article stating exactly how regulation can lead to higher costs.

In this very post, I provided you with the act written in 1945...prohibiting insurance company competition.

We are discussing your claim that it was the 1990s when healthcare became the en vogue topic. Please try to stay on topic.

Quote
Quote
There was an act in 45 preventing outside competition from other insurance providers, which none of the presidents (except maybe Trump, perhaps) has sought to overturn.

He’s as corporatist a president as any other.
Who has given indications he isn't producing corporatist results.

No one. Glad we agree.

Quote

Quote
If government gets out of the business altogether, things will no doubt get cheaper.

Maybe. I hope for you me sake it’s the case.
Every once in a while, you end up writing something truthful..

Thanks puddin’  :-*
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 06, 2019, 12:26:33 PM
En vogue topics for the 1990s were “not having sexual relations”, the wars in the Baltic states, WTC bombing, Whitewater.
HIPAA was highly en vogue, much more than any other era health related topics.

24/7 news cycle came into being, remember.

HIPAA added a tremendous amount of cost to health care.

I am not surprised to learn none of you wish to cede this point.

Evidence?
My personal experience here in the US.

That’s not evidence. You haven’t accounted for your bias of living through one time vs another. Anecdotes in general are garbage evidence.
Perhaps in a trial, but this is not a trial.

And as earlier stated, you don't live in the US.

You have nothing to go on as far as personal experience from the 1960's through now, living in the US and dealing with healthcare in the US.

So, while your opinion is it is "anecdotal," and therefore, "garbage," you then concede through your own writing anecdotes are evidence.

ANOTHER FE VICTORY!
Quote
Neither you nor Dave live in the US.

So what?
So what, what?

You don't live in the US nor does Dave.
Quote
You haven’t provided any evidence, Dave has. Provide some evidence.
You ignoring the evidence doesn't mean it hasn't been provided.

I provided a link to an article stating exactly how regulation can lead to higher costs.

In this very post, I provided you with the act written in 1945...prohibiting insurance company competition.
We are discussing your claim that it was the 1990s when healthcare became the en vogue topic. Please try to stay on topic.
No, we are writing about whether the government and regulations lead to higher health care costs.

Please try to stay on topic.
Quote
Quote
There was an act in 45 preventing outside competition from other insurance providers, which none of the presidents (except maybe Trump, perhaps) has sought to overturn.

He’s as corporatist a president as any other.
Who has given indications he isn't producing corporatist results.

No one. Glad we agree.

Quote

Quote
If government gets out of the business altogether, things will no doubt get cheaper.

Maybe. I hope for you me sake it’s the case.
Every once in a while, you end up writing something truthful..

Thanks puddin’  :-*
Ciao.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 06, 2019, 03:53:55 PM
If you read my post again, I stated, "...in vogue topic."

1933-in vogue topic...fact check for you...world wide Great Depression, Hitler...not health care...

1949 - in vogue topic...fact check for you...The Marshall Plan...Cold War commencement...Korean Peninsula...not health care...

Medicare and Medicaid not dominant subject topic during the 60's...Vietnam War, Charles Manson, burning bras, Abby Hoffman...

Clinton HIPAA, piling on costs...

Obama ACA, "...we will need to pass it to see what is in it..."
So years when laws were proposed or enacted weren't popular toics of talk?  Well... How interesting.
Though I wonder how you know what the popular topics in 1933 were.  I mean, you forgot "The New Deal" so... Guessing you just grabbed the two biggest things.  Though Hilter being a vogue topic seems odd given that he hasn't invaded anyone yet.


Quote
Yeah, we will see...the way I hear things, Norway is going broke buster...
Source?  Because last I checked, we had a surplus AND a few Trillion NOK in savings.
https://www.statsbudsjettet.no/Statsbudsjettet-2019/English/

Quote
Just in case you missed it...nothing is free, last I checked...
Yes.  We pay for it with taxes.  Which isn't much more than you do.  Its nice to get more than you for the same cost.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 07, 2019, 01:14:17 PM
If you read my post again, I stated, "...in vogue topic."

1933-in vogue topic...fact check for you...world wide Great Depression, Hitler...not health care...

1949 - in vogue topic...fact check for you...The Marshall Plan...Cold War commencement...Korean Peninsula...not health care...

Medicare and Medicaid not dominant subject topic during the 60's...Vietnam War, Charles Manson, burning bras, Abby Hoffman...

Clinton HIPAA, piling on costs...

Obama ACA, "...we will need to pass it to see what is in it..."
So years when laws were proposed or enacted weren't popular toics of talk?  Well... How interesting.
Though I wonder how you know what the popular topics in 1933 were.  I mean, you forgot "The New Deal" so... Guessing you just grabbed the two biggest things.  Though Hilter being a vogue topic seems odd given that he hasn't invaded anyone yet.
If healthcare was in vogue then, it was within the town where the doctor was performing house calls and accepting chickens or apples in return for service.

Regrettably, due mostly to government interventions and regulations, that practice is long gone.
Quote
Yeah, we will see...the way I hear things, Norway is going broke buster...
Source?  Because last I checked, we had a surplus AND a few Trillion NOK in savings.
https://www.statsbudsjettet.no/Statsbudsjettet-2019/English/
https://www.tnp.no/norway/economy/5496-norway-is-heading-to-a-new-financial-crisis
Quote
Just in case you missed it...nothing is free, last I checked...
Yes.  We pay for it with taxes.  Which isn't much more than you do.  Its nice to get more than you for the same cost.
Actually, you pay much more in taxes than do I, and there is no evidence you get more than I.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 07, 2019, 02:38:07 PM
If you read my post again, I stated, "...in vogue topic."

1933-in vogue topic...fact check for you...world wide Great Depression, Hitler...not health care...

1949 - in vogue topic...fact check for you...The Marshall Plan...Cold War commencement...Korean Peninsula...not health care...

Medicare and Medicaid not dominant subject topic during the 60's...Vietnam War, Charles Manson, burning bras, Abby Hoffman...

Clinton HIPAA, piling on costs...

Obama ACA, "...we will need to pass it to see what is in it..."
So years when laws were proposed or enacted weren't popular toics of talk?  Well... How interesting.
Though I wonder how you know what the popular topics in 1933 were.  I mean, you forgot "The New Deal" so... Guessing you just grabbed the two biggest things.  Though Hilter being a vogue topic seems odd given that he hasn't invaded anyone yet.
If healthcare was in vogue then, it was within the town where the doctor was performing house calls and accepting chickens or apples in return for service.

Regrettably, due mostly to government interventions and regulations, that practice is long gone.
Still waiting to know how you know what was vogue before you were born.

Quote
https://www.tnp.no/norway/economy/5496-norway-is-heading-to-a-new-financial-crisis

Well he said the whole world was heading there but thats largely irrelevant to Norway's specific health.  But the house debt is concerning.


Quote
Actually, you pay much more in taxes than do I, and there is no evidence you get more than I.

Do I?  My source is Norwegian and American work experience.  Yours is?
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 07, 2019, 03:40:18 PM
If you read my post again, I stated, "...in vogue topic."

1933-in vogue topic...fact check for you...world wide Great Depression, Hitler...not health care...

1949 - in vogue topic...fact check for you...The Marshall Plan...Cold War commencement...Korean Peninsula...not health care...

Medicare and Medicaid not dominant subject topic during the 60's...Vietnam War, Charles Manson, burning bras, Abby Hoffman...

Clinton HIPAA, piling on costs...

Obama ACA, "...we will need to pass it to see what is in it..."
So years when laws were proposed or enacted weren't popular toics of talk?  Well... How interesting.
Though I wonder how you know what the popular topics in 1933 were.  I mean, you forgot "The New Deal" so... Guessing you just grabbed the two biggest things.  Though Hilter being a vogue topic seems odd given that he hasn't invaded anyone yet.
If healthcare was in vogue then, it was within the town where the doctor was performing house calls and accepting chickens or apples in return for service.

Regrettably, due mostly to government interventions and regulations, that practice is long gone.
Still waiting to know how you know what was vogue before you were born.
History books.

Quote
https://www.tnp.no/norway/economy/5496-norway-is-heading-to-a-new-financial-crisis

Well he said the whole world was heading there but thats largely irrelevant to Norway's specific health.  But the house debt is concerning.


Quote
Actually, you pay much more in taxes than do I, and there is no evidence you get more than I.

Do I?  My source is Norwegian and American work experience.  Yours is?
[/quote]
Math.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 07, 2019, 04:16:07 PM
History books.
Its funny. I don't recall "vogue topic of the year" being in my American History books.  But since you said it, please, cite your source.  Should be easy.


Quote
Math.
Then show your work.  I'll wait.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 07, 2019, 04:19:03 PM
History books.
Its funny. I don't recall "vogue topic of the year" being in my American History books.  But since you said it, please, cite your source.  Should be easy.
It is.

Choose any American History Book and look up the topics I mentioned.

They will be there, I promise.


Quote
Math.
Then show your work.  I'll wait.
[/quote]
I do not pay 30 percent income tax.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 07, 2019, 04:41:53 PM
History books.
Its funny. I don't recall "vogue topic of the year" being in my American History books.  But since you said it, please, cite your source.  Should be easy.
It is.

Choose any American History Book and look up the topics I mentioned.

They will be there, I promise.
Yes but we are not talking about those topics.  You claimed health care was not vogue.  You failed to prove this or provide any evidence as to how you know it was not a popular topic of discussion.  I am waiting for that.

Quote
Quote
Math.
Then show your work.  I'll wait.
I do not pay 30 percent income tax.
[/quote]
Is that a fact?
Then show your work.  Or put up your paystub.
Also, its not just income tax.  You have medicare, medicaid, state, federal, and social security taxes.  Did you add those all up?

We do not have all those taxes.  We have 1.  One national income tax that covers everything.
(Filing taxes here is super easy, btw.  We just check to see if the income reported on a website matches what we made and if it does, we do nothing.)
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 08, 2019, 10:31:05 AM
Is that a fact?
Yes.
Then show your work.  Or put up your paystub.
No.
Also, its not just income tax.  You have medicare, medicaid, state, federal, and social security taxes.  Did you add those all up?
Yes I did.
We do not have all those taxes.  We have 1.  One national income tax that covers everything.
(Filing taxes here is super easy, btw.  We just check to see if the income reported on a website matches what we made and if it does, we do nothing.)
Which goes to the entire idea of taxation.

I believe in no taxation of production and strictly a tax on consumption.

Everyone, including corporations, pays a 10 percent tax on every currency unit spent.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: timterroo on August 08, 2019, 02:54:33 PM
...
I believe in no taxation of production and strictly a tax on consumption.

...

I like this idea. I also think lowering or completely removing income tax would be good. It would put the power of spending back in the consumers hands. Of course, you'd have to increase taxes on consumables as lackey said, and this would have to be a very high tax. This would do two things:

1. Increase spending power and enable people to decide whether or not the 30% or more of extra income should go to consumables, invested, or saved.
2. Reduce overall consumption since consumable items would be more expensive. This country could stand to reduce consumption by magnitudes. Hell, the amount food wasted each day could easily feed a starving country.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Rama Set on August 08, 2019, 03:04:53 PM
So then what’s the plan on the budget after you massively slash revenue? Or would the new consumption tax be higher than the mean sales tax in order to try and offset?
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: timterroo on August 08, 2019, 04:21:38 PM
So then what’s the plan on the budget after you massively slash revenue? Or would the new consumption tax be higher than the mean sales tax in order to try and offset?

Consumption tax would have to be much higher. Ultimately you'd have to match the income tax in other areas, but people would be free to choose where to spend that 30% rather than just fork it up to government who then decides what to spend it on.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 08, 2019, 05:32:43 PM
So then what’s the plan on the budget after you massively slash revenue? Or would the new consumption tax be higher than the mean sales tax in order to try and offset?

Consumption tax would have to be much higher. Ultimately you'd have to match the income tax in other areas, but people would be free to choose where to spend that 30% rather than just fork it up to government who then decides what to spend it on.
I don't think so.

Look at GDP.

Tons less paperwork and time, huge reduction in fed workforce...

10 percent, based on current GDP (don't forget that is 10 percent for ALL dollars spent, including wholesale cost).
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 09, 2019, 06:06:06 AM
Is that a fact?
Yes.
Then show your work.  Or put up your paystub.
No.
Also, its not just income tax.  You have medicare, medicaid, state, federal, and social security taxes.  Did you add those all up?
Yes I did.
So basically your entire argument is "Trust me.". You'll understand if I don't.

Quote
We do not have all those taxes.  We have 1.  One national income tax that covers everything.
(Filing taxes here is super easy, btw.  We just check to see if the income reported on a website matches what we made and if it does, we do nothing.)
Which goes to the entire idea of taxation.

I believe in no taxation of production and strictly a tax on consumption.

Everyone, including corporations, pays a 10 percent tax on every currency unit spent.
This is a sensible thought and concept, not your usual rant.  However, I don't think 10% is enough.

GDP has more than just consumer spending in it.
Consumer spending in 2018 was 14.1 trillion.  This includes non-taxable items too.  Food in 2017 was about 1.6 trillion so lets just assume 1 trillion of consumer food spending.
About 3.6 trillion in health care which isn't usually taxed.
So if you keep the current tax exemptions, your spending is already down to 10 trillion.  Our revenue in 2018 was $2.5 trillion.
So 10% wouldn't even cover half of what the government spends.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: totallackey on August 09, 2019, 10:35:29 AM
Is that a fact?
Yes.
Then show your work.  Or put up your paystub.
No.
Also, its not just income tax.  You have medicare, medicaid, state, federal, and social security taxes.  Did you add those all up?
Yes I did.
So basically your entire argument is "Trust me.". You'll understand if I don't.
Don't.
We do not have all those taxes.  We have 1.  One national income tax that covers everything.
(Filing taxes here is super easy, btw.  We just check to see if the income reported on a website matches what we made and if it does, we do nothing.)
Which goes to the entire idea of taxation.

I believe in no taxation of production and strictly a tax on consumption.

Everyone, including corporations, pays a 10 percent tax on every currency unit spent.
This is a sensible thought and concept, not your usual rant.  However, I don't think 10% is enough.

GDP has more than just consumer spending in it.
Consumer spending in 2018 was 14.1 trillion.  This includes non-taxable items too.  Food in 2017 was about 1.6 trillion so lets just assume 1 trillion of consumer food spending.
About 3.6 trillion in health care which isn't usually taxed.
So if you keep the current tax exemptions, your spending is already down to 10 trillion.  Our revenue in 2018 was $2.5 trillion.
So 10% wouldn't even cover half of what the government spends.
You are forgetting corporate wholesale spending.

Please note I wrote: "...every currency unit spent..."

So, including those currency units, and considering that now everyone would be taxed at the exact same rate, the surplus can be realized and no one dodges the payment anymore.
Title: Re: Is government to blame for Health Care costs?
Post by: Lord Dave on August 09, 2019, 11:19:28 AM
Can you link me what the wholesale numbers are?  Can't find em.
Also, isn't that double taxation?  I mean, I'm ok with it but its not going to be widely accepted.

And what about off shore importing?  If I simply buy what I need overseas, wouldn't that be a way around it?

Not saying I can't get behind the idea but we'd need to lock off loopholes.