41

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!

« on: February 14, 2020, 11:50:22 PM »

But when the bible says, over and over and over something to the effect of "The earth does not move" or  "the earth can't move"

I offer an alternate interpretation to be that no major calamity will happen between the inception of man extending to the return of Jesus and possibly beyond. No asteroids, no giant solar flares, no Noah’s ark scale super floods, etc. will happen in the meantime.

Now after reading a half dozen times that the earth does not move in the bible and reading this verse about how the sun stopped moving then it becomes more lopsided.

In my perspective, you can’t console the bible for reliable information about physical reality. My assumption is that information was not put in the bible explicitly for that purpose. Rather, that information has a spiritual context or meaning. Possible interpretation above.

I am a more black and white person which may skew my view on this, but I believe it's important to be consistent with a certain view point. If there is a discrepency with your views meaning your views conflict, then your views must change or the discrepency must have another explanation in order to allow the acception. When you say that the bible is antiquated and requires modern logic  to interpret, I don't see the argument against what I've said in this post as not being modern logic, as after all, it is modern thinking that the earth is round.

42

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I think you're wrong. Discuss if you dare

« on: February 14, 2020, 11:19:46 PM »

Sorry to go back on this material but this really deserves a response. To start, just because you don't understand something and feel like it's impossible doesn't mean that that something isn't true to reality. To help you understand reality, I've posted a picture below and a brief description of what's happening.

Essentially, the distances we are working with here are massive. it's over 300 light years to get to Polaris, and our solar system scale is on the scale of only a few billion miles. It takes 4 hours for light to hit Pluto from the sun. Mathematically, we can compare our models by measuring the rate of change of the hypotenuse that connects two legs of a triangle. The legs represent our displacement through the universe and the distance between us and Polaris. Of course Polaris moves too, but this is also a minuscule amount.

43

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!

« on: February 14, 2020, 10:39:33 PM »

What if you were standing on your head, wouldn't the movement be upwards for a sunset? God takes into account the general perspective of the reader. From our view, it's true the sun moves downward as it sets, that is our reality, but it's a relative reality and can change depending on your perspective. Besides, if you consider the earth as the center of the universe and is perfectly still and everything revolves around it, besides that being absurd, it's valid in relativity. If that floats your boat, then think of it that way.

I'm on board with you iamcpc. So in your opinion, what do you make of the verses that support the flat earth? Do you think there could be an argument that makes those verses out to be intended to be for a different reason than informing of the nature of the earths shape?

44

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Appearance of the moon face

« on: February 14, 2020, 10:31:38 PM »

Any FErs want to explain how moon phasing works?

45

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Infinite Earth and zeteticism

« on: February 14, 2020, 10:28:15 PM »

I must admit, I'm impressed with the UA theory. There's some questions in my mind though... 1) Dark matter annihilates with matter upon contact, so why does it exist under our disk of matter, 2) Why would the dark matter accelerate with the earth if it is the main repelling force, and 3) If there is in fact material outside our bubble, what else is out there?

Story time: I live in Texas and had a friend from New York visit who has never seen cows. When he saw a feed lot, all the cows were black. Later, we went to my aunts' home and she had a brown cowhide rug. My friend was baffled because to him, he saw hundreds of black cows and no brown, white, or spotted cows and assumed black was the only variety of cow. Silly Northerners.

You are like my friend when you say "It seems flat, so that's the most likely conclusion". You don't need to understand reality for it to be real. I don't understand quantum mechanics, but thank goodness that it still works without my comprehension. You must rise to the level of comprehension required by reality. You can't change reality to match your comprehension. Tom hasn't made a conjecture like this in this thread, but I've seen it in other threads from him and others.

46

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Are plane tickets real?

« on: February 14, 2020, 10:08:39 PM »

because you know, the NASA conspiracy from the sixties..

Ya... I think this has had a larger than necessary influence on FErs becoming FErs, but that's anecdotal.

A flat disk FE model with a great ice wall and a north pole center is significantly weakened by measured and known flight times

Significantly weakened… You mean proven incorrect? If there is a single discrepancy with a theory in science, then the theory is wrong. This is why we know general relativity, string theory, etc. are all incorrect because they only work in a certain scale or explain only one part of reality but not another. All the theories for physics have at least one discrepancy, sort of like how all of the maps for a flat earth will always have at least one discrepancy with measuring distances alone. If you fixed the discrepancy I put in the original post with a new map, then I will find a new discrepancy with the new map.

47

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!

« on: February 13, 2020, 09:54:32 PM »

I really appreciate the effort you put into your posts iamcpc, thank you.

Let me get this straight because your post was 10% convoluted for me. You do not take everything in the Bible to be historically/factually correct? You reference the story in Numbers and you say you wouldn’t believe in a God that would order such a thing for such a reason, so therefor since you believe in the god the Bible speaks of, then the story mustn’t be true? Just trying to understand your position and that of RErs in general.

48

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Are plane tickets real?

« on: February 13, 2020, 09:43:57 PM »

That’s fine, I’m too lazy to fly for 14 hours to prove my point.

What Tom did was flatten out a non Euclidean triangle, and then proved a flat triangle has 180 degrees. In reality, the triangle between 3 cities, if you can call it that, is a non-Euclidean shape, and the sides are not lines but arc lengths with a 3 dimensional vector, so you can’t just plug that into a triangle angle calculator online. You need to find the vectors for each arc at the ends and find the angles that way. I could do that and take a picture of the math, but alas, laziness. I will if you ask.

I think you have the right idea, but it’s not fully explored, iamcpc.

49

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!

« on: February 13, 2020, 12:10:33 AM »

I understand I'm no expert in anything I talk about on this forum, I'm just good at math and engineering and find it interesting people's views differ so much from my own. I think there's a chance I'm wrong, but I also think the likelihood the earth is flat is very low. What do I know though is that I will always be an ignorant child in the eyes of the omnipotent God.

My point earlier was, God could say "Earth moon and sun, halt, but with no adverse affects." And just like we command dogs, space-time and matter will bend to Gods will. It doesn't matter that physics doesn't follow up intuitively to the actions of halting the sun, moon or earth because God owns physics. Also so that we are on the same page, I don't personally believe this event even happened, but I'm just trying to play in your field, not mine.

I'd love to discuss those verses in another thread because I think we'll get into the weeds a little bit with theology. I will respond though to your points: I think the bible is a spiritual book and is in regards to our relationships with ourselves, people, and God, and nothing else. God is saying this so the people at the time and laymen from everywhere at every time period would understand. It's not relevant to the story to say it technically correct because the bible sources its relevance from fulfilling the aforementioned purposes, not those of a high school textbook. I didn't say the miracle was flawed, just that the miracle would have to take care of a large number of complexities that are simply not mentioned in the text.

50

Flat Earth Theory / Re: God

« on: February 12, 2020, 11:38:32 PM »

...What would you think you would feel/sense if you lived on a round earth...?

We're sort of straying from the initial question here. We're talking about HOW and not WHY. The OP wants to know why the earth, of any other possible configuration is a flat disk? I said it's because FErs think that's simply the way God made it. What do the people who believe the earths design is non-conforming to the bible think of this? I assumed the only reason you'd think it's flat is if you're really stubborn or skeptical of everything or if you take the bible literally.

A problem with science is that any field will never figure out the baseline explanation as to why. With strictly science, there is no self fulfilling purpose for any particular thing, event, etc. For example, why did the big bang occur and what was there before? Scientists think there is a multiverse with big bangs all the time, and universes so old that entropy has nearly evened everything out. Though this theory can be compelling if you read the literature, it still leaves the reader thinking, but why... and I think you, the OP are asking this question in regards to the FE theory. People use religion as their self fulfilling thing in their life so they can answer the "why" with "because God", so maybe you're looking for that answer, but I'm not a FE so I can't say for sure

51

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!

« on: February 12, 2020, 07:48:22 PM »

Yes but it’s logically inconsistent to say that makes sense. Step 1 of Gods plan is to miraculously stop the earth and sun and moon from moving. No matter what model you believe in, that’s a miracle. Step 2 of Gods plan would be to maintain that position, which is also a miracle, if it happened. Why would you accept step 1 as a miracle but then try to explain away step 2 because “physics”? Like I said, if God were all powerful, he could just as easily override physics for that day as he could control the FE sun and moon.

52

Flat Earth Theory / Re: God

« on: February 12, 2020, 05:42:35 PM »

Flat earthers take the Bible literally and there are verses in the Bible that could be interpreted in such a way that it seems like it’s suggesting the earth is flat. Since faith comes before fact for some, here we are.

53

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Moon and Stars

« on: February 11, 2020, 11:50:45 PM »

And if your just asking why one looks like it’s spinning clockwards and anti clockwards it’s cause they used mirrors. You can tell at the end it’s the same tree line but looks like the stars are going different directions.  And also the constellations are all northern hemisphere Constellations.  My question to you is why would you have to fake a video to get your results your looking for?

Oh there it is. It’s fake. I’ve been lurking here waiting for that.

Get the nightcap app on your iPhone and do a time lapse video and get whatever evidence you want to get and then share your results here.

54

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Are plane tickets real?

« on: February 11, 2020, 11:20:44 PM »

Triangles add up to 180 degrees, always. Maybe you’re thinking some don’t because of curve, but if you bend the legs of a triangle, it’s not a triangle.

A plane ticket would be exorbitantly expensive if planes had to be refueled mid flight. Furthermore, the forces keeping the fueling aircraft up translate to forces pushing the receiving plane down, and this turbulence is not smooth, and you need more power to maintain altitude. You’d notice onboard a very stable and large 747. Look up wake turbulence.

Because some 12+ hour flights in the Southern Hemisphere are nonstop and do make it relatively on time, then your map must account for it, which it currently does not (Any of the maps). If you say “it’s jet streams” then we can talk about it. A globe on the other hand, has no discrepancies and nuances like this one.

If these 747s and a380s, etc. are actually way more capable than we thought and the airline industry knows about it, Do you really think millions of people are really that depraved that they’d keep the lie?

GPS systems do indeed provide calcs based on a round earth Because they orbit the earth.

I read some of the threads and I think y’all take this “prove it” thing too far. For example, I have never actually been to Europe, therefor I don’t know it actually exists. If you showed me pictures of it or products from there, I could say it’s faked by Toms logic. That’s what I’m seeing in some of these threads, which is why I asked “are plane tickets real” because it would seem that Tom (and company?) would say no, these tickets are fake and there’s no proof these flights happen. It’s like, prove that the color red exists... prove we’re not in the matrix...

55

Flat Earth Theory / Are plane tickets real?

« on: February 11, 2020, 03:00:24 AM »

How come I can purchase a nonstop plane ticket from Sydney to Santiago in Chile? On the most common flat map, you'd have to cross or laterally pass EVERY single continent. Our jets A) wouldn't have enough fuel for that, B) can't travel fast enough to get there in 13 hours and 15 minutes, and C) We don't ever hear about people seeing land part of the way. I guess you could fly around the land, but that complicates the first two contingencies.

56

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!

« on: February 11, 2020, 01:16:17 AM »

Apologies to iamcpc, I sort of got tunnel vision in responding I didn't address the verses from the bible you posted that you claim lays evidence that God told us the earth is flat. This is sort of an unsophisticated take on this, but I'll give it my best shot...

With the "(the earth) cannot be moved" statements in the bible, I take this to mean that nothing catastrophic will happen to the earth after creation and before the return. However even in its literal meaning, because of what we have established in the wiki with Einsteins general relativity, the earth could be considered an absolutely still object while everything else relative to it is moving and orbiting around it.

From Matthew 4:8, the world in those peoples' scope at the time was very small, and also which mountain? 2000 years ago, it's a safe assumption the highest mountains were the Himalayas, and even if the devil took him there, he wouldn't be able to see very far. That very tall mountain had to have been destroyed without evidence or record of its existence, or the devil had to have taken him very very high in the atmosphere, AND he would've had to see through the atmosphere, which I think I read in the wiki, is the reason we can't see as far as you'd expect from a high mountain. You pick which is more likely, or choose an alternate explanation. I pick that you're taking it too literally and that the "devil" if he really was there, took him to a tall foothill and looked over various local lands.

From Habakkuk 3:11, Only two of the things would have had to happen for the story to be true: the earth had to stop spinning and the moon would have had to stop revolving. The force of the Earth's spin would be immense but stopping it within, say a 12 hour period, would be 0.68m/s^2 at the equator. Deceleration would be linearly proportional to time taken if you think it was faster than that and want to calculate. Personally, I don't see, if God is all powerful, that God wouldn't be able to do this with the heliocentric model. For an allpowerful God, it would be just as easy to do this as it would to interrupt the normal function of however the FE model works.

57

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!

« on: February 10, 2020, 11:49:16 PM »

If all this is from a creator, then what does that say about the creator??   

The missing premise to this if /then argument is:
“A good God wouldn’t create a deadly environment”
Or maybe it’s
“A good God wouldn’t create a vastly useless environment”
I’m not too sure which, if either, you’re trying to hint at. If it’s neither and does make for a good argument, please respond with it.

God made a sizable portion of earth rather deadly, hostile, and useless, didn’t he? For myself, I will not presuppose the kind of God I believe in initially and then view facts and evidence through that lense. If I come across new facts or evidence that I feel are proven or provable and it contradicts a presupposition I have of God, I’ll have to change what I think about God, not the other way around.

I think what this says about God is that he has an appreciation for art and beauty by design.

58

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!

« on: February 08, 2020, 02:30:10 AM »

Was that a 9/11 reference J-Man? Engineers are actually pretty useful. You're welcome for the tall buildings and the cellphones.

In the biblical/philosophical FE models we are the center of the universe. We are significant. We matter.

I suppose I don't have a problem with being very insignificant and neither should anyone. In reality, we are all relatively insignificant, as we are one of several billion, and most of us will breath eat and die all the same. We source our "significance" from God and God alone, not the orientation in which our land is situated in the universe or "ether". The cosmos is a primary reason I believe in God. It's so beautiful, so vast, and upon studying how all of it works, the math for it is so undeniably engineered by a higher power. Realizing my insignificance is actually useful to me because it reminds me that my endeavors are relatively meaningless while Gods' are not.

If you believe that the bible is the holy word of God it says, according to the holy word of God, that the earth does not move. It's not like it only says it once. It says it multiple times.  Many of the FE models are biblical/philosophical.

I also believe these instances are a combination of your interpretation through whatever translation you're reading and also the interpretation of God's word, having limited scientific knowledge, of the people who wrote it. Like I said, the bible is only relevant in so far as to guide people in their relationships with themselves, others, and God... not to teach high school chemistry. I just find it very unlikely that A) the world is flat and B) the bible is teaching that world is flat. I can tell we are going to disagree on this point and that is okay, I don't believe this is a salvation issue.

59

Flat Earth Theory / Re: I'm a RE'r and have some questions!

« on: February 03, 2020, 12:08:37 AM »

I guess I'm not one to take the bible THAT literally. The truth in it pertains mainly to our relationships with ourselves, other people, and God, and providing guidance in these relationships is the primary purpose of the bible, not explaining physics or the history of the world. I don't think my faith is shattered if I don't take the bible literally. That's generally what cults try to do. They say, "if you don't believe X, then you lose your salvation". God isn't a cult leader, he's God.

This started out as humorous to me, but my attitude has evolved into frustration, because I am part of the group that would be trying to fool everyone. I work on aircraft that have technology, and this tech requires a round earth and round earth physics to function properly. I have friends that do too. I know the earth is round because I see the product of my work, and the planes I work on don't crash. Probably one of the most basic concepts is that the higher the altitude of an aircraft, the farther it travels across the same distance on the surface. This is because as elevation increases, the plane has a larger radius around the globe than a car would on the surface. My team and I must account for that issue. We have to determine the best possible altitude to balance this factor along with many others in order to get to point A to point B the fastest, and our models predict real life very VERY accurately.

It's like if you witnessed a murder and you know who the murderer was but the police think it was you instead and find convincing evidence for it. That's how I feel now. Started as a joke, but now...

60

Flat Earth Theory / Re: Flat Earth Satellites

« on: January 23, 2020, 07:26:03 AM »

I’d be curious too. Since there’s no centripetal force to keep them circling...

Curious side note about satellites: I did a project on how they adjust the gps clocks based on the atomic clocks in Colorado taking into account equations for distance from earth and tangential velocity. Apparently they travel so fast, time dilation makes a meaningful difference.