Offline jimster

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questions about day/night sky
« on: December 04, 2021, 10:59:55 PM »
At sunset in Denver, two people look at the sky directly above Denver. One is in Salt Lake City, where the entire sky appears to be light blue. The other is in St Louis, where the sky is dark all over, the exact same spot is black with stars. How can this be?

Just after sunset, we know the sun is still up there, just a little more distant. Yet if I look at the exact spot the sun would be in according to the faq, I see an unbroken field of stars, none are blocked by the sun or anything. They are much dimmer than the sun, yet something that is lighting up half the earth has disappeared. It can't be the distance, because I can see stars over the entire dome, so the relatively dim light of the stars can travel all the way across the dome. Why can't I see the sun when the stars are visible at even greater distance?

Why is the entire sky light blue all day, then suddenly over a period of 20 minutes it turns black. If the sun is still up there, just moving away, why the sudden darkness over the entire dome?

If one paints the dome black with stars over the night portion, and light blue with sun over the day portion, what would an observer see from the surface of FE? I see the entire dome all day and all night. Same dome, different place, sees the entire dome so different - day to night, southern hemisphere stars vs northern hemisphere.

When the sun sets, it appears to be directly on the horizon, apparently per the faq, it is still up quite a ways from the horizon. Why does the horizon appear to be in the same place all day, same horizontal angle consistent with the horizon in every direction. The light bends from the sun quite a bit to cause a > 20 degree distortion of position. Yet the light rays from the horizon right next to it are not bending? At that moment, the horizon looks to be at the same place as the sun. Are the rays from the sun bending > 20 degrees while the light from the horizon is traveling straight while the sunlight is bending? Or is the horizon moving up to the sun and both their light rays bending down to look lie they are on the horizon?





On FE, the surface is straight and the light is curved.
On RE, the surface is curved and the light is straight.

Re: questions about day/night sky
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2021, 08:43:07 PM »
Jimster I will try to answer your questions but a similar Q &A about sunrise/set was here to start.  https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18506.0
DISCLAIMER:. I advocate a South Pole centered Flat Earth that spins once a day, wobbles once a year, is covered by a dome shaped atmosphere that tilts towards a small solar system at about 30deg, and magnets are what holds everything together.

Offline jimster

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Re: questions about day/night sky
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2021, 04:50:01 AM »
I am eagerly awaiting an explanation of how someone in Salt Lake City looks up and sees light blue over the entire dome at the same time that someone in St Louis sees darkness at the same time.

This means that the person in St Louis is seeing stars against the night sky right through the daylight shinning down on salt lake city.

                                                                               
Stars seen from STL ...        *                                                                                                           Sky here is light blue from SLC
but from SLC, light blue    *                                                                                                               but stars from STL
                                   *
                                    _________________SLC___________________STL_____________________

I truly hope you can explain this.
On FE, the surface is straight and the light is curved.
On RE, the surface is curved and the light is straight.

Re: questions about day/night sky
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2021, 04:09:36 PM »
I will provide you with all of the answers!  just kidding...

The answer is that the sun and stars are above earth at all times.  And without any atmosphere, your arguments hold true - You should see the sun from all three states, there should be no sharp termination line of sunrise or sunset, and people from around the world should probably see every star everywhere provided they are high enough in the sky.   

But, once you place a dome beneath you and celestial objects, then refraction changes their image.

It explains why the Sun sets quickly from Missouri to Utah and why you see stars normally blocked by the sun coming into view after sunset, etc.  I can't explain the mechanism behind it, other than it is demonstratable on a small scale.

Here's a link explaining the general picture of earth and the solar system. 

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18768.0





   
DISCLAIMER:. I advocate a South Pole centered Flat Earth that spins once a day, wobbles once a year, is covered by a dome shaped atmosphere that tilts towards a small solar system at about 30deg, and magnets are what holds everything together.

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Offline stack

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Re: questions about day/night sky
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2021, 04:28:36 PM »
I will provide you with all of the answers!  just kidding...

The answer is that the sun and stars are above earth at all times.  And without any atmosphere, your arguments hold true - You should see the sun from all three states, there should be no sharp termination line of sunrise or sunset, and people from around the world should probably see every star everywhere provided they are high enough in the sky.   

But, once you place a dome beneath you and celestial objects, then refraction changes their image.

It explains why the Sun sets quickly from Missouri to Utah and why you see stars normally blocked by the sun coming into view after sunset, etc.  I can't explain the mechanism behind it, other than it is demonstratable on a small scale.

Here's a link explaining the general picture of earth and the solar system. 

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18768.0

The atmosphere doesn't really explain it. Here is St Louis at dusk, the sun has set over the horizon yet SLC is still in daylight and the sun can be seen above the horizon. And the sun is directly overhead some 6500 miles away toward the West, yet SLC residents can still see it. St Louis residents can't.



If you're going to try a small scale demonstration, don't use a chunk of glass magnifier as that is not representative of a "dome", it would squash us all. Use an overturned glass bowl or similar.

Re: questions about day/night sky
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2021, 05:07:44 PM »
It's your distance from the sun that makes the sun set through a Dome.  And if you compare the atmosphere to a vacuum, you'd have to admit it's pretty thick. 
DISCLAIMER:. I advocate a South Pole centered Flat Earth that spins once a day, wobbles once a year, is covered by a dome shaped atmosphere that tilts towards a small solar system at about 30deg, and magnets are what holds everything together.

Offline jimster

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Re: questions about day/night sky
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2021, 06:36:39 PM »
MetaTron,

Just after sunset in STL, a person in SLC and one in STL look at the spot on the dome half way between them, an equal distance from each. One sees darkness, the other sees light. Exact same distance.

Worse yet, the person in SlC can look eastward and see light blue sky on the dome waaaaaaay further from them. Look at my character graphics diagram. STL sees darkness at all distances, SLC sees light at all distances.

Even worse, the person in SLC sees the light travel from the sun to their west, across the dome and back to them still bright. The person in STL looks directly at the sun and doesn't see it even though the distance is much shorter.

So you need to explain that. It has nothing to do with distance.

Perhaps the totality of your position, simply put,  is: "The earth is flat and there is a dome. I have no idea how people under this dome can see a daytime sky in one place and a nighttime sky in another at the same time."

Do you acknowledge that RET explains this? Do you admit that FET has only the conviction that it can be explained, but has no explanation?
On FE, the surface is straight and the light is curved.
On RE, the surface is curved and the light is straight.

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Offline stack

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Re: questions about day/night sky
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2021, 06:44:24 PM »
It's your distance from the sun that makes the sun set through a Dome.  And if you compare the atmosphere to a vacuum, you'd have to admit it's pretty thick.

Apparently not thick enough to stop an SLC resident from seeing the Sun 6500 miles away.

Re: questions about day/night sky
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2021, 04:06:35 PM »

Perhaps the totality of your position, simply put,  is: "The earth is flat and there is a dome. I have no idea how people under this dome can see a daytime sky in one place and a nighttime sky in another at the same time."

Do you acknowledge that RET explains this? Do you admit that FET has only the conviction that it can be explained, but has no explanation?

I can agree with alot of this but I do have a  good idea how this works on a FE.   It's a reasonable scientific inquire IMO. I'd prefer to continue this conversation later as more information comes in. 
DISCLAIMER:. I advocate a South Pole centered Flat Earth that spins once a day, wobbles once a year, is covered by a dome shaped atmosphere that tilts towards a small solar system at about 30deg, and magnets are what holds everything together.

Offline jimster

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Re: questions about day/night sky
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2021, 02:19:16 AM »
MetaTron,

There is future time when information will come in that explains how the person in STL sees stars at the farthest end of the dome, directly beyond SLC that is still in daylight.

***(
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***_______________________________SLC______________________STL
far edge of the dome
stars as seen by STL

SLC sees daylight there. STL sees stars from farther away.

If what you are saying is really "I have no explanation but refuse to accept RE", then I can't argue with you.

Those are your choices. Like a FE map with constant scale and correct distances everywhere, you will wait forever.
On FE, the surface is straight and the light is curved.
On RE, the surface is curved and the light is straight.

Re: questions about day/night sky
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2021, 07:37:02 PM »

The atmosphere doesn't really explain it. Here is St Louis at dusk, the sun has set over the horizon yet SLC is still in daylight and the sun can be seen above the horizon. And the sun is directly overhead some 6500 miles away toward the West, yet SLC residents can still see it. St Louis residents can't...

This is similar to my issue with the sun in Australia.  In Sydney (east coast) it's still broad daylight,
with the sun still well into the western sky.  But in Perth (west coast) it's dark, with none of the sun's
light being visible from the east.  According to FET, the sun is roughly 3,000 miles above Sydney,
whilst Perth is roughly 3,500 miles from the sun (using simple geometry) but apparently it's not
seen at all.   How does FET explain this obvious anomaly?

Re: questions about day/night sky
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2021, 01:27:38 AM »
I think it moves like a rainbow in the sky.  It's image moves as you move around..
DISCLAIMER:. I advocate a South Pole centered Flat Earth that spins once a day, wobbles once a year, is covered by a dome shaped atmosphere that tilts towards a small solar system at about 30deg, and magnets are what holds everything together.

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Offline stack

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Re: questions about day/night sky
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2021, 05:26:23 AM »
I think it moves like a rainbow in the sky.  It's image moves as you move around..

So if I move around I can bring sunlight with me?

Offline jimster

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Re: questions about day/night sky
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2021, 10:58:20 PM »
Metatron, do you have any reason to believe or explanation for your claim other than: the earth is flat, so whatever has to happen to make sense of it must be true. No explanation of the physics/optical properties, just "well, compressed hydrogen may have interesting optical properties and  hydorgen might be compressed in the dome, so issue resolved, it might be?

You do understand that RET explains this without any need of unknown forces, unknown properties, unknown equations? That RET is consistent with all known physics and observations? Only in FEland does it have flaws, in the world of astronomers, astronauts, satellites, gps, navigation, nuclear missile aiming, satellite tv antenna aiming, equatorial telescope mounts, gyroscopes/gyrocompass (15 degrees per hour, Bob Knodel), artillery ranging, etc, it works perfectly.

You have a situation you can't diagram or explain, I have a hundred different daily proofs that have a system of experiments and equations confirming RE.
On FE, the surface is straight and the light is curved.
On RE, the surface is curved and the light is straight.

Re: questions about day/night sky
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2021, 01:24:45 PM »
I think it moves like a rainbow in the sky.  It's image moves as you move around..

I'm not sure what you're referring to here... what is "it"?   And rainbows don't "move around", the observer
is the one that moves.  A rainbow isn't located at a specific distance from the observer, but comes from an
optical illusion caused by water droplets viewed from a certain angle relative to a light source.  It's impossible
for an observer to see a rainbow at any angle other than the usual one of 42ยบ from the direction opposite the
light source.

Interestingly, if you capture the image of a rainbow on monochromatic film, you'll only see one single band of
bright light, rather than seven clear bands as from a colour film.  The perceived colours are simply the result
of an artifact of human colour vision.