Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2021, 06:03:38 PM »
Right. Except Pole to Pole circumnavigation trips have occurred.
Looking at the routes of those, they don’t go straight on at the South Pole
That do not happen to be pole to pole.
Ok. Well how about you look the route of one of them up and show how it maps to a flat earth map.
Well, how about eliminating what you wrote to begin.

You write, "Pole to Pole circumnavigation trips have occurred."

Immediately after that, you write, "Looking at the routes of those, they don’t go straight on at the South Pole."

Meaning that is not pole to pole.

Obviously, since the maps and charts used were flat, it worked just fine.

Apparently this guy is pretty convinced he flew Pole-to-Pole:

San Diego Pilot Completes ‘Pole to Pole’ Circumnavigation
"San Diego resident Robert DeLaurentis, an aviator and former Navy officer, described his unique journey Wednesday after completing a nine-month circumnavigation from the South Pole to the North Pole to spread a message of peace."
https://timesofsandiego.com/life/2020/08/12/san-diego-pilot-completes-pole-to-pole-circumnavigation/

Pan Am apparently pulled it off too back in '77:

How Pan Am Flight 50 flew from pole to pole
"The one-time-only flight on Boeing's new special performance 747 began in San Francisco, flew over the North Pole and stopped at its next destination: London.

After refueling the plane jetted on to South Africa. Next, it flew over the South Pole and landed in New Zealand before taking off again and ending up back in San Francisco.
Total time: 54 hours, seven minutes and 12 seconds. The record-setting average speed, according to the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale: 487 mph (784 km/hr).
"

The route:



https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/pole-to-pole-pan-am-flight-50/index.html


Scomato I believe Satellites exist and fly over all parts of the world.  But because of refraction the images may be warped in some instances. 

I mapped out Pan Am 50's circumpolar flight on a South Centered FE Map.



Using this information, I don't see why it's impossible for a flight to travel along a Flat Earth and arrive at the same results.   Their flight path looks very similar to the "great circle" paths commercial pilots use today (in red).  And keep in mind that anybody who arrives at 90'N latitude assumes they are at the North Pole (as per RE Theory).

-Does this presentation of a south centered FE model mean it's now fair game to discuss its logic?
I mean, it opens loads of doors for asking questions regarding a suddenly no longer existing icewall, a continent that is suddenly fairly easy to fly or sail around, new trajectories for the sun and moon, heavily distorted landmasses around the rim of the disc, etc..

To be fair, it would explain why in history sailing the Northwest passage was so hard.. 
~No Ordinary Moments~

Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2021, 06:38:30 PM »
Stack, navigation isn't difficult if you just follow "north" on your compass and take into account different land masses on a FE Map (particularly the far north).  We went into more detail about this here:  https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18499.msg245481#msg245481

I also made an image explaining where the north and south poles are on a Flat Earth.  I think a Flat Earth like ours resembles an Axial Magnetic Disc with both Poles located above and below the center.   



Misterkami - There is an ice wall or sorts around the perimeter of this map...  It begins as the Sea Ice and Glaciers you see the farther north you go.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2021, 09:10:55 PM by MetaTron »
DISCLAIMER:. I advocate a South Pole centered Flat Earth that spins once a day, wobbles once a year, is covered by a dome shaped atmosphere that tilts towards a small solar system at about 30deg, and magnets are what holds everything together.

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Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2021, 09:57:24 PM »
Stack, navigation isn't difficult if you just follow "north" on your compass and take into account different land masses on a FE Map (particularly the far north).  We went into more detail about this here:  https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18499.msg245481#msg245481

I also made an image explaining where the north and south poles are on a Flat Earth.  I think a Flat Earth like ours resembles an Axial Magnetic Disc with both Poles located above and below the center.   



Misterkami - There is an ice wall or sorts around the perimeter of this map...  It begins as the Sea Ice and Glaciers you see the farther north you go.

How would you explain, say, 24 hour sun hours that is observed on Antarctica on your Axial Magnetic Disc map? Such a scene from the video below would be impossible no matter which way you try to spin it.


Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2021, 10:51:51 PM »
There's a good thread about this subject here https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18607.0

I assume the 4 months are around Oct, Nov Dec, Jan?  That would tilt the Earth away from the sun and center it more over Antarctica which allows it to be seen all day.
DISCLAIMER:. I advocate a South Pole centered Flat Earth that spins once a day, wobbles once a year, is covered by a dome shaped atmosphere that tilts towards a small solar system at about 30deg, and magnets are what holds everything together.

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Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2021, 11:06:54 PM »
There's a good thread about this subject here https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18607.0

I assume the 4 months are around Oct, Nov Dec, Jan?  That would tilt the Earth away from the sun and center it more over Antarctica which allows it to be seen all day.

What sort of tilt are you referring to?

And I still don't understand if I want to fly due north from sydney to tokyo, if north is all around the rim of the disk, which north am I traveling on? Which way am I traveling if I fly from sydney to sao paulo?

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Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2021, 11:27:06 PM »
There's a good thread about this subject here https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18607.0

I assume the 4 months are around Oct, Nov Dec, Jan?  That would tilt the Earth away from the sun and center it more over Antarctica which allows it to be seen all day.

I mean, yes, that is the correct answer to why the North and South poles experience midnight sun. During the summer the Northern hemisphere is tilted towards the Sun, in the winter the Earth is tilted away producing summer in the Southern hemisphere. Which is precisely what produces what we experience as seasons, 'summer' and 'winter' respectively. It's also why Winter in both South Africa and Australia is from June to August.

The obvious conclusion is that the Earth is a sphere with a 23.4 degree tilt, rotating once every 24 hours, making one orbit around the Sun every 365 days.




Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2021, 01:00:54 AM »
There's a good thread about this subject here https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18607.0

I assume the 4 months are around Oct, Nov Dec, Jan?  That would tilt the Earth away from the sun and center it more over Antarctica which allows it to be seen all day.

What sort of tilt are you referring to?

And I still don't understand if I want to fly due north from sydney to tokyo, if north is all around the rim of the disk, which north am I traveling on? Which way am I traveling if I fly from sydney to sao paulo?


Scomato explained what I meant by tilt, except seasonal variations in weather are caused by earth wobbling rather then orbitting the sun once a year.

For your second question, from Sydney to Tokyo, you would need to look up the lines of longitude you must travel along - in this case its 150'E...  ..

From Sydney to Sao Paulo, you travel South towards Antarctica then North again to Brazil using lines of latitude and longitude as a reference.

I'm sorry to OP if we digressed from Circumpolar travel possibility to "How actually to fly a plane pole to pole in different earth dimensions."
« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 05:13:22 PM by MetaTron »
DISCLAIMER:. I advocate a South Pole centered Flat Earth that spins once a day, wobbles once a year, is covered by a dome shaped atmosphere that tilts towards a small solar system at about 30deg, and magnets are what holds everything together.

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Offline stack

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Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2021, 05:51:12 AM »
There's a good thread about this subject here https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=18607.0

I assume the 4 months are around Oct, Nov Dec, Jan?  That would tilt the Earth away from the sun and center it more over Antarctica which allows it to be seen all day.

What sort of tilt are you referring to?

And I still don't understand if I want to fly due north from sydney to tokyo, if north is all around the rim of the disk, which north am I traveling on? Which way am I traveling if I fly from sydney to sao paulo?


Scomato explained what I meant by seasonal tilt, except on FE it is cause by a wobble.

For your second question, from Sydney to Tokyo, you would need to look up the lines of longitude you must travel along - in this case its 150'E...  ..

From Sydney to Sao Paulo, you travel South towards Antarctica then North again to Brazil using lines of latitude and longitude as a reference.

I'm sorry to OP if we digressed from Circumpolar travel possibility to "How actually to fly a plane pole to pole in different earth dimensions."

What wobble are you referring to?

The problem is that north on my compass points to roughly near the North Pole, magnetic north. On your map, if I fly north to Tokyo from Sydney, north on my compass would be pointed in the opposite direction I am traveling. How does that work?

And why have Antarctica in the center of your map as opposed to the arctic? Why did you pick one over the other?

Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2021, 06:17:47 AM »
Like a frisbee, the Earth wobbles once a year.  And stack you cannot assume your compass will point south on this map...  A Magnetic North Pole is where field lines are vertical to earth.  And I like this map bc the North lands create a basin to hold the majority of Earth's water like a tub, which makes a less dramatic ice wall more realistic to holds Earth's remaining water. 
DISCLAIMER:. I advocate a South Pole centered Flat Earth that spins once a day, wobbles once a year, is covered by a dome shaped atmosphere that tilts towards a small solar system at about 30deg, and magnets are what holds everything together.

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Offline stack

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Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2021, 06:56:19 AM »
Like a frisbee, the Earth wobbles once a year.  And stack you cannot assume your compass will point south on this map...  A Magnetic North Pole is where field lines are vertical to earth.  And I like this map bc the North lands create a basin to hold the majority of Earth's water like a tub, which makes a less dramatic ice wall more realistic to holds Earth's remaining water.

So even though I have compass that points south when I’m facing south you’re telling me it doesn’t do that when in reality it does?

And you realize there is a difference between a basic northern hemisphere compass and a basic Southern Hemisphere compass, right?

And why is magnetic north any different than magnetic south?

Just to be clear, this all is just what you believe and not really based on any science? I mean you realize, on your map, that planes flying from LAX to Heathrow would fly over South America on a straight shortest route shot? They don’t. They generally fly way up over Greenland on a great circle. Which on your map would be 1000s of miles out of the way. That would make zero sense and is not observed in reality.

Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2021, 11:25:44 PM »
@Metatron, 

Some more questions regarding your South Centred Map; 

Why do commercial California-Europe flights normally take the Great Circle route?  (and what is a "Great Circle"?)
Wouldn't it be much shorter flying over central Africa?
How did Flight 50 fly a single sector from SF to London and then need to refuel twice on the way back, on what appears to be a similar distance? 

Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2021, 01:56:12 AM »
Hi Duncan,

Planes from LA to Europe take Great Circle Paths on FE because they are following the path of Jet Streams that circle the world.  Jet Streams are incredibly powerful streams of wind that run West to East and help carry a plane to their destination - sometimes doubling their speed. 

Flying in cold weather also helps with Fuel Efficiency.  So, when Pan AM starts to make their return trip from London, they are now flying across and against jet streams and in warmer weather conditions which may explain the added fuel stops. 

Flying from East to West planes also take "Great Circle" paths because they try to avoid going against jet streams and pick the colder side which again is smoother and more efficient.

Traditionally, "Great Circle" paths are thought of as the shortest distance from point A to B on a spherical earth and look like straight lines.

Here's an image of Jet Streams on a spherical earth and a flat earth.






« Last Edit: December 09, 2021, 02:18:17 AM by MetaTron »
DISCLAIMER:. I advocate a South Pole centered Flat Earth that spins once a day, wobbles once a year, is covered by a dome shaped atmosphere that tilts towards a small solar system at about 30deg, and magnets are what holds everything together.

Offline scomato

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Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2021, 02:09:25 AM »
Hi Duncan,

Planes from LA to Europe take Great Circle Paths on FE because they are following the path of Jet Streams that circle the world.  Jet Streams are incredibly powerful streams of wind that run West to East and help carry a plane to their destination - sometimes doubling their speed.  Flying in cold weather also helps with Fuel Efficiency.  So, when Pan AM starts to make their return trip from London, they are now flying across and against jet streams and in warmer weather conditions which may explain the added fuel stops. 

Flying from East to West planes also take "Great Circle" paths because they try to avoid going against jet streams and pick the colder side which is smoother and more fuel efficient.

Traditionally, "Great Circle" paths are thought of as the shortest distance from point A to B a plane can fly on a spherical earth and would look like a straight line.

Here's an image of Jet Streams on a spherical earth and a flat earth.




It takes 7 hours to fly direct from NYC to London, and 8.5 hours coming back. The polar jet streams account for a 20% speed difference over the identical route, not exactly 100% as you claim. Plus, you can freely access global wind data: https://earth.nullschool.net/ and while the jet stream is quite strong over the Atlantic ocean and around Antarctica, it's hardly present anywhere else.


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Offline stack

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Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2021, 04:11:18 AM »
Hi Duncan,

Planes from LA to Europe take Great Circle Paths on FE because they are following the path of Jet Streams that circle the world.  Jet Streams are incredibly powerful streams of wind that run West to East and help carry a plane to their destination - sometimes doubling their speed. 

What flight from NYC to London has ever doubled their speed due to a jetstream. For a BA Boeing 777, the average is 6 hours. London to NYC same equipment/airline/route averages 7:18. The record for fastest crossing is from 2020 (not including Concorde):
Four hours and 56 minutes is all it took for BA112 to make it across the Atlantic Ocean last week.
The Boeing 747 Jumbo Jet reached a top speed of 825 miles per hour which was boosted by a strong jet-stream and tailwind of over 200 miles per hour.


No speed doubling, let alone due to jetstream.

As well, your jetstream argument only applies to east and west directions. What about north and south? Those long haul flights all over the world follow great circles, like LAX to Sydney. No jetstreams involved.

Lastly, how far is it from NYC to London on your map following a great circle/jetstream versus a straight line?

Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2021, 09:26:27 AM »
I echo Stack's comments on the jetstreams (I'm a retired aircraft engineer), and what about west-bound traffic?  I'm currently (09.20 UTC, 9 Dec) watching an Air India 777, callsign AIC 127, on FR24.  He's going from Delhi to Chicago, and he's over Greenland.  Why would he do that, when the most direct route is obviously over Antarctica? 

And what is the relevance of a Great Circle, which you admit is a spherical concept, to flat navigation? 

Offline SteelyBob

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Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2021, 11:16:11 AM »
Flying in cold weather also helps with Fuel Efficiency.  So, when Pan AM starts to make their return trip from London, they are now flying across and against jet streams and in warmer weather conditions which may explain the added fuel stops. 

Airlines undertaking anything other than short journeys generally plan to fly at the tropopause, as that is the coldest part of the atmosphere. You are correct in saying that cold is good for efficiency. The problem with your argument is that, counter-intuitively, the temperature at the polar tropopause is actually warmer than the equatorial one, meaning that if you were choosing where to fly purely on the basis of atmospheric temperature, you'd prefer to fly in equatorial latitudes.

I also entirely agree with everything that stack, Duncan and Scomato have said. There are many, many things that simply make no sense at all about the model you have presented. For example, all of the issues that bedevil the north-centred monopole map are equally valid for yours. The enormous distortion of east-west distances causes all sorts of issues. Just look at typical journey times. It takes a couple of hours longer, for example, to fly from London to Buenos Aires than it does to fly from London to Los Angeles. But look at your map - according to what you've presented the distance between London and South America is far less than the distance to the west coast of the states. The USA on your map is also substantially bigger than Australia, which is completely at odds with what we know about those places.

There's nothing wrong with proposing something and then testing it against observations, but when those observations prove to be at odds with your model, a good scientist would go back and revise their assumptions - the world cannot be shaped in the way you propose.

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Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2021, 02:49:03 PM »
Quote
Like a frisbee, the Earth wobbles once a year
.

How does it wobble if the whole surface is being accelerated at the same rate all the time?

Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2021, 09:26:33 PM »
Quote
Like a frisbee, the Earth wobbles once a year
.

How does it wobble if the whole surface is being accelerated at the same rate all the time?

I personally think Gravity is caused by Magnetism.  The earth emits a negative charge which somehow influences how people can walk on it. 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2021, 02:21:29 AM by MetaTron »
DISCLAIMER:. I advocate a South Pole centered Flat Earth that spins once a day, wobbles once a year, is covered by a dome shaped atmosphere that tilts towards a small solar system at about 30deg, and magnets are what holds everything together.

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Offline stack

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Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2021, 02:53:00 AM »
Quote
Like a frisbee, the Earth wobbles once a year
.

How does it wobble if the whole surface is being accelerated at the same rate all the time?

I personally think Gravity is caused by Magnetism.  The earth emits a negative charge which somehow influences how people can walk on it.

How am I magnetic? How is a rock or a stick magnetic when it isn't?

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Offline stack

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Re: How do FE proponents explain flying over the south pole?
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2021, 03:03:34 AM »
Hi Duncan,

Planes from LA to Europe take Great Circle Paths on FE because they are following the path of Jet Streams that circle the world.  Jet Streams are incredibly powerful streams of wind that run West to East and help carry a plane to their destination - sometimes doubling their speed. 

You really have to address and reconcile something like this, BA Seattle to Heathrow:



On your map the way, way shorter route, even able to catch some of the southern jetstream, is over Brazil, not Greenland. On your map there is literally no reason for BA to fly up and over Greenland. Way too far out of the way even considering the northern jetstream. Not to mention the reverse, Heathrow to Seattle: