[Vindictus]

So the American Revolution one day will sound like the Exodus. So your point is that one day in the future a completely mundane event will be characterized as supernatural, even though it wasn't. Got it. Can we move on?

Asking a question about your standard of what is probable is not even an argument. You know that right?

By your comments about atheist countries it appears you do not understand what a citation is. Please try again.

In regards to your comment bout a universe arising from nothing why are you using your opinion about what it seems like the universe should be?  Are you an expert in cosmology?  Here is a source that discusses in part how QM and other natural laws are deterministic.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-physics-free-will/

So please drop this nonsense that the universe is random. It only appears that way due to a lack of information. Again: universe=non-random=creation need not be an accident in the absence of a prime-mover.

Of course my summation of a PhD philosopher's argument may sound absurd on its face. Maybe you should take the time to listen to what the expert has to say instead of making an argument from personal credulity.

(Sorry for the lack of quotes, on my phone and don't have time to parse it all.)

In all fairness, some people already do revere the founding fathers like Gods.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

VINDICTUS! You brilliant son-of-a-bitch! That is the first correct thing I've ever heard you say! Damn, brother, I'm impressed. I mean that, I'm not just being nasty or snide. Good one on you.

[Rushy]

In other news, Sweden recently recognized Palestine as a state and the UK is voting on the issue soon, with very high chances that the motion will pass.

Edit: Looks like I'm a bit late, actually. They've already voted and recognized Palestine as a state. Nevermind, it was a symbolic vote, whatever the hell that is.

Additionally I just learned that 80% of the world recognizes Palestine as a state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine

[Rama Set]

So the American Revolution one day will sound like the Exodus. So your point is that one day in the future a completely mundane event will be characterized as supernatural, even though it wasn't. Got it. Can we move on?

No, you missed my point. The American Revolution was not supernatural, nor will it be classed as such. My point is that people will have the same questions as to whether or not it even occurred.

Unlikely considering the plethora of primary sources for the American Revolution and the Dearth for the Exodus. As an aside I thought you were suspicious of the number of Jews in the Exodus being in the millions.

Asking a question about your standard of what is probable is not even an argument. You know that right?

Ah, ok. Whatever that means.

Good talk.

By your comments about atheist countries it appears you do not understand what a citation is. Please try again.

I'm stating facts. One does not need citations when one is stating facts that any person can look up in any decent encyclopedia. Go have look at Wikipedia.

Ah ok. Let's keep your statement in mind later.

In regards to your comment bout a universe arising from nothing why are you using your opinion about what it seems like the universe should be?  Are you an expert in cosmology?  Here is a source that discusses in part how QM and other natural laws are deterministic.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-physics-free-will/

So please drop this nonsense that the universe is random. It only appears that way due to a lack of information. Again: universe=non-random=creation need not be an accident in the absence of a prime-mover.

So, you are basing this off one article. IMPRESSIVE! (NOT!) There are so many theories about the universe and how it got to be here that you could power the city of San Diego with them for about 10 years if you kept one person reciting them all, and hooked his mouth up to a generator. I think you are doing rather poorly so far trying to prove your point.

Of course my summation of a PhD philosopher's argument may sound absurd on its face. Maybe you should take the time to listen to what the expert has to say instead of making an argument from personal credulity.

No I listed one source of many. If you wish to learn more and cease sitting there being spoon fed you can heed your own advice regarding factual information spouted above and do your own research. Don't go to Wikipedia though.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

So, 80% of the world (which means the UN, which we've already established is useless, and should be abolished as a threat to world peace) recognises "Palestine". So what? And a recent survey of 190 countries shows that 26% of the world's adults still harbour anti-Semitic attitudes. We all know that Israel has always been treated as the "Jew among nations", just as Jews have been treated as the Jews have always been.

The UN "Human Rights Council" is a case in point. Such luminaries as China, Cuba, Syria, and Saudi Arabia have been on it. Such fine examples for the world to follow! What brave proud nations to look up to!

The "Palestinians" will never have a nation, not because Israel doesn't want them to. In fact, most Israelis DON'T agree with me. The majority would love for them to have a state of their own. They will never have one because they are stupid. Every time Israel makes them an offer, they refuse, and launch rockets instead, 2001 and 2005 being just 2 examples. Eventually, Israel will get sick of catering to public opinion in the world and will deal with the "Palestinians" the way they deserve to be dealt with, and that will be the end of the problem. Either that or the Messiah will come and resolve matters for us.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

So the American Revolution one day will sound like the Exodus. So your point is that one day in the future a completely mundane event will be characterized as supernatural, even though it wasn't. Got it. Can we move on?

No, you missed my point. The American Revolution was not supernatural, nor will it be classed as such. My point is that people will have the same questions as to whether or not it even occurred.

Unlikely considering the plethora of primary sources for the American Revolution and the Dearth for the Exodus. As an aside I thought you were suspicious of the number of Jews in the Exodus being in the millions.

I am not prepared to answer the question about the size of the Exodus at present time. I have heard so many arguments about it being 2 million or less than that that I don't have an answer. I am using that number as a point of reference. For future purposes, please understand that when I say "two million", that stands for an undetermined number, and that I use it because that is what the Torah states. I am doing more research on that subject now. If I come to a conclusion regarding it, I shall let you all know what it is.

Asking a question about your standard of what is probable is not even an argument. You know that right?

Ah, ok. Whatever that means.

Good talk.

By your comments about atheist countries it appears you do not understand what a citation is. Please try again.

I'm stating facts. One does not need citations when one is stating facts that any person can look up in any decent encyclopedia. Go have look at Wikipedia.

Ah ok. Let's keep your statement in mind later.

In regards to your comment bout a universe arising from nothing why are you using your opinion about what it seems like the universe should be?  Are you an expert in cosmology?  Here is a source that discusses in part how QM and other natural laws are deterministic.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-physics-free-will/

So please drop this nonsense that the universe is random. It only appears that way due to a lack of information. Again: universe=non-random=creation need not be an accident in the absence of a prime-mover.

So, you are basing this off one article. IMPRESSIVE! (NOT!) There are so many theories about the universe and how it got to be here that you could power the city of San Diego with them for about 10 years if you kept one person reciting them all, and hooked his mouth up to a generator. I think you are doing rather poorly so far trying to prove your point.

Of course my summation of a PhD philosopher's argument may sound absurd on its face. Maybe you should take the time to listen to what the expert has to say instead of making an argument from personal credulity.

No I listed one source of many. If you wish to learn more and cease sitting there being spoon fed you can heed your own advice regarding factual information spouted above and do your own research. Don't go to Wikipedia though.

I'll have a look-see at that article from your magazine that you posted later.

[Lord Dave]

Trumpets totally did exist. 

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_primitive_and_non-Western_trumpets

And could easily amplify human voices.  They'd be distorted but God doesn't have to speak with crystal clarity when Moses told everyone what he said anyway.

Also, thank you for admitting Moses wrote the Torah himself.  Sole source of all your culture right there.
And if it took him 40 days to write the Torah, memorize the oral Torah, AND make 2 stone tablets, why did it take him an equal time to just make two stone tablets?

And if God came to this mountain then it should still have evidence of his presence.  So where is the mountain?

Sorry but Moses had this stuff down long before "God" descended on a mountain on fire.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Trumpets totally did exist. 

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_primitive_and_non-Western_trumpets

And could easily amplify human voices.  They'd be distorted but God doesn't have to speak with crystal clarity when Moses told everyone what he said anyway.

I stand corrected on the point regarding trumpets. However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

Also, thank you for admitting Moses wrote the Torah himself.  Sole source of all your culture right there.
And if it took him 40 days to write the Torah, memorize the oral Torah, AND make 2 stone tablets, why did it take him an equal time to just make two stone tablets?

Ah, no, HE did not write the Torah. He wrote what God dictated him to write. You really are trying to be obtuse. As to why he spent another 40 days up there the second time, I am guessing God decided to reveal more Oral Torah to him while he was there. I don't know, and ultimately, don't care.

And if God came to this mountain then it should still have evidence of his presence.  So where is the mountain?

And why would it have evidence of God's presence? What would possibly lead you to that conclusion?

Sorry but Moses had this stuff down long before "God" descended on a mountain on fire.

Again, still doing a terrible job. But do keep trying. Its entertaining me.

[Lord Dave]

Trumpets totally did exist. 

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_primitive_and_non-Western_trumpets

And could easily amplify human voices.  They'd be distorted but God doesn't have to speak with crystal clarity when Moses told everyone what he said anyway.

I stand corrected on the point regarding trumpets. However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

1. Yeah you can.  It's on a mountain. 
2. 2 million is a lot for Moses to talk to isn't it?  How did he do it?  19:25 clearly states that Moses told everyone.  How did he tell all 2 million people?
3. 20:16 clearly states that the people didn't want god to speak to them or they'd die.  So where does it say everyone heard God? 

And they said unto Moses:'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.'

Did all 2 million speak?  Because that's really loud.  I mean, so loud that nothing Moses would say could get to anyone.  Do you know how loud 2 million people are?  Obama had almost as many people at his first inauguration.  If you have 2 million people scared of a mountain, you are not getting a word in.

Also, thank you for admitting Moses wrote the Torah himself.  Sole source of all your culture right there.
And if it took him 40 days to write the Torah, memorize the oral Torah, AND make 2 stone tablets, why did it take him an equal time to just make two stone tablets?

Ah, no, HE did not write the Torah. He wrote what God dictated him to write. You really are trying to be obtuse. As to why he spent another 40 days up there the second time, I am guessing God decided to reveal more Oral Torah to him while he was there. I don't know, and ultimately, don't care.

He wrote what god dictated and who said that?  Oh right, Moses.  So Moses said that God said it all.  Gotcha.  If God Changed his mind, that doesn't make a good case.  What if Moses didn't drop the stone tablets?  Would you have less Oral Torah?
And ultimately not caring is why this is so frustrating.  When you're confronted with something you can't explain, you choose apathy.  This is classic brainwashing.  You literally can't care about mistakes that make you question something.  At this point God could come down to you by making your house on fire (but not burn) and tell you you're wrong and you'd still dismiss it as a lie.

And if God came to this mountain then it should still have evidence of his presence.  So where is the mountain?

And why would it have evidence of God's presence? What would possibly lead you to that conclusion?

So shaking mountains and burning rocks don't leave evidence?  He's GOD!  His divine presence is so powerful looking at him kills people.  You think he can descend on a mountain in fire and not scorch a few rocks?

Sorry but Moses had this stuff down long before "God" descended on a mountain on fire.

Again, still doing a terrible job. But do keep trying. Its entertaining me.

Oh I'm doing a great job, you're just brainwashed.  Your world is so rigid that not even God himself could change your "facts".  You are the worst kind of human.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Trumpets totally did exist. 

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_primitive_and_non-Western_trumpets

And could easily amplify human voices.  They'd be distorted but God doesn't have to speak with crystal clarity when Moses told everyone what he said anyway.

I stand corrected on the point regarding trumpets. However, you couldn't imitate the voice of God such that 2 million people could all hear it. That would be hard to do even today, let alone then.

1. Yeah you can.  It's on a mountain. 
2. 2 million is a lot for Moses to talk to isn't it?  How did he do it?  19:25 clearly states that Moses told everyone.  How did he tell all 2 million people?

I am assuming through messengers. I don't know, and don't care much about the mechanics of it.

3. 20:16 clearly states that the people didn't want god to speak to them or they'd die.  So where does it say everyone heard God?

Ah, God is God. He can do that. Even you acknowledged in reply #902, p. 46 that "They HEARD a voice". So make up your sorry excuse for a mind.

Ex. 19:8-9 "And all the people answered together, and said: 'All that the Lord hath spoken we will do.' And Moses reported the words of the people unto the Lord. 9 And the Lord said unto Moses: 'Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and may also believe thee for ever.' And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord." 

And they said unto Moses:'Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.'

Did all 2 million speak?  Because that's really loud.  I mean, so loud that nothing Moses would say could get to anyone.  Do you know how loud 2 million people are?  Obama had almost as many people at his first inauguration.  If you have 2 million people scared of a mountain, you are not getting a word in.

I'm assuming again, likewise through messengers. Again, I don't know for certain, and I'm not too preoccupied with the matter.

Also, thank you for admitting Moses wrote the Torah himself.  Sole source of all your culture right there.
And if it took him 40 days to write the Torah, memorize the oral Torah, AND make 2 stone tablets, why did it take him an equal time to just make two stone tablets?

Ah, no, HE did not write the Torah. He wrote what God dictated him to write. You really are trying to be obtuse. As to why he spent another 40 days up there the second time, I am guessing God decided to reveal more Oral Torah to him while he was there. I don't know, and ultimately, don't care.

He wrote what god dictated and who said that?  Oh right, Moses.  So Moses said that God said it all.  Gotcha.  If God Changed his mind, that doesn't make a good case.  What if Moses didn't drop the stone tablets?  Would you have less Oral Torah?
And ultimately not caring is why this is so frustrating.  When you're confronted with something you can't explain, you choose apathy.  This is classic brainwashing.  You literally can't care about mistakes that make you question something.  At this point God could come down to you by making your house on fire (but not burn) and tell you you're wrong and you'd still dismiss it as a lie.

Methinks the Lady doth protest too much. It is not too hard hard to consider the strong possibility that Moses wrote the Torah on a scroll the first 40 days, and received the Oral Torah during the second 40 days. I am assuming that God wanted to use the time wisely. I am also assuming that had Moses NOT broken the Tables of the Law, God would have called him back up the Mount anyway. The point is, the Torah doesn't tell us what God might have done. It tells us only what he did. Quit whining.

And if God came to this mountain then it should still have evidence of his presence.  So where is the mountain?

And why would it have evidence of God's presence? What would possibly lead you to that conclusion?

So shaking mountains and burning rocks don't leave evidence?  He's GOD!  His divine presence is so powerful looking at him kills people.  You think he can descend on a mountain in fire and not scorch a few rocks?

Observe a fire on a mountain, and then go back several years later and observe the same mountain. Although you will find evidence, it will NOT be easy to find, except perhaps in the rocks. You WILL have to search for it. My father was a firefighter, and knew that much, and that was just in the life of one man. Now imagine the time being stretched to 4500 years. There might be evidence, but it wouldn't be readily observable without A LOT of research on said mountain. And that is only if God decides to LEAVE evidence. What if he chooses not to?

Sorry but Moses had this stuff down long before "God" descended on a mountain on fire.

Again, still doing a terrible job. But do keep trying. Its entertaining me.

Oh I'm doing a great job, you're just brainwashed.  Your world is so rigid that not even God himself could change your "facts".  You are the worst kind of human.

Ooh, we are getting good at the insults now. Well, keep trying. I'm having fun. This is entertaining to watch you make a fool of yourself every time you open your yap. I would generally encourage you to close it, but in your case, I'll let you continue, so that I may laugh harder. Carry on, my good man, carry on...
[/quote]

[Lord Dave]

So if I'm understanding you right, you don't care about specifics just the general idea.

I guess that's required then isn't it?  I mean, if you look too hard you'll see flaws so the best solution is to not look very hard at all.

And by not caring, you acknowledge my argument as being valid.  (you did the same to spanner) so thanks for that.  I'm happy to know that your "facts" have as much basis in reality as Unicorns.

I'm actually debating if I should keep going or not.  On one hand, I find it fun to constantly poke holes in all of your points and "facts", resulting in you having to say "I don't know and don't care".  On the other hand, it's not fun trying to argue with someone who has no free will on the subject.  It's like arguing with a book really.  No matter how wrong the book is, it'll never change it's text.  As I said, God himself could not change your mind.  Which you have ignored so I assume you agree.  (Would that be irony?)

[spanner34.5]

So if I'm understanding you right, you don't care about specifics just the general idea.

I guess that's required then isn't it?  I mean, if you look too hard you'll see flaws so the best solution is to not look very hard at all.

And by not caring, you acknowledge my argument as being valid.  (you did the same to spanner) so thanks for that.  I'm happy to know that your "facts" have as much basis in reality as Unicorns.

I'm actually debating if I should keep going or not.  On one hand, I find it fun to constantly poke holes in all of your points and "facts", resulting in you having to say "I don't know and don't care".  On the other hand, it's not fun trying to argue with someone who has no free will on the subject.  It's like arguing with a book really.  No matter how wrong the book is, it'll never change it's text.  As I said, God himself could not change your mind.  Which you have ignored so I assume you agree.  (Would that be irony?)

I suggest you let the child molesting bigot rant away by himself. Ignore the twat.

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

So if I'm understanding you right, you don't care about specifics just the general idea.

I guess that's required then isn't it?  I mean, if you look too hard you'll see flaws so the best solution is to not look very hard at all.

I think you are failing to see that Exodus is written no differently than any other report of an event. When you read about a baseball game between the Padres and the Dodgers, you don't expect the author of the report to tell you what would have happened if so-and-so had not struck out. You only want what did happen. You seem to want to what would have happened. Nobody is allowed that knowledge.

And by not caring, you acknowledge my argument as being valid.  (you did the same to spanner) so thanks for that.  I'm happy to know that your "facts" have as much basis in reality as Unicorns.

No, I am not acknowledging your argument as valid. I am acknowledging that you have no argument at all. Basically, I am acknowledging that you are an idiot.

I'm actually debating if I should keep going or not.  On one hand, I find it fun to constantly poke holes in all of your points and "facts", resulting in you having to say "I don't know and don't care".

If someone asks me what WOULD have happened if Derek Jeter HAD caught a certain ball, my answer will be, "I don't know and I don't care". That doesn't mean the ball game never took place. So, yeeeeeeaaaah-no.  Your haven't poked a hole in anything other than your own head.

 On the other hand, it's not fun trying to argue with someone who has no free will on the subject.  It's like arguing with a book really.  No matter how wrong the book is, it'll never change it's text.  As I said, God himself could not change your mind.  Which you have ignored so I assume you agree.  (Would that be irony?)

Why would I bother to respond to such a remarkably stupid statement?

I suggest you let the child molesting bigot rant away by himself. Ignore the twat.

Ooh, do I feel insulted by someone that can't do anything more than indicate his lack of vocabulary. My, now I am accused of being a child molester. Well, since such a statement is simply fucktarded, and indicates utmost stupidity on your part, and a failure to be able to present a cogent argument to anything I've said, I'll just take it as a sign that you're a complete moron incapable of anything else.

[jroa]

Well, your people do cut off babys' penises. 

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Well, your people do cut off babys' penises.

As do plenty of American non-Jews for sanitary reasons. We've been over this. Now you are reaching a point of being stupid.

[Lord Dave]

Considering you can't quote correctly, I'm having trouble seeing your "intelligence".

I'm not talking about what ifs but so much as unexplained time.  If it takes 30 minutes to fetch a new bat then the hitter realizes he needs a new one and it takes another 30 minutes to get it, that makes one ask why it took so along. 

Now God is all powerful and makes land masses in a day.  A stone tablet should be no problem yet it takes 40 times as long.

And you don't watch baseball much.  They talk about what could have happened all the time. 

Also, if I heard a game where the batter hit the ball into the lights then the next thing they said was that he was out, I'd want to know how that happened. 

[jroa]

Well, your people do cut off babys' penises.

As do plenty of American non-Jews for sanitary reasons. We've been over this. Now you are reaching a point of being stupid.

That is because all the doctors are Jews. 

[Yaakov ben Avraham]

Considering you can't quote correctly, I'm having trouble seeing your "intelligence".

I'm not talking about what ifs but so much as unexplained time.  If it takes 30 minutes to fetch a new bat then the hitter realizes he needs a new one and it takes another 30 minutes to get it, that makes one ask why it took so along. 

God, you do try to be dense. Moses didn't just go up for tablets. He went up and wrote the entire text of the Torah and got the Oral Torah. That would take at least 80 days, schmuck.

Now God is all powerful and makes land masses in a day.  A stone tablet should be no problem yet it takes 40 times as long.

And you don't watch baseball much.  They talk about what could have happened all the time.

Not in the newspaper report they don't. They might in casual conversation, or in game analysis, but in the basic report of what occurred, or on the nightly news, they don't.

Also, if I heard a game where the batter hit the ball into the lights then the next thing they said was that he was out, I'd want to know how that happened.

Your point?

[jroa]

Hello, EJ

[Lord Dave]

Considering you can't quote correctly, I'm having trouble seeing your "intelligence".

I'm not talking about what ifs but so much as unexplained time.  If it takes 30 minutes to fetch a new bat then the hitter realizes he needs a new one and it takes another 30 minutes to get it, that makes one ask why it took so along. 

God, you do try to be dense. Moses didn't just go up for tablets. He went up and wrote the entire text of the Torah and got the Oral Torah. That would take at least 80 days, schmuck.

1. How do you know how long such a task would take?
2. Correct me if I'm wrong but isnt' the Torah a collection of many "chapters" (for lack of a better word) such as:
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbersm, and Deuteronomy.
And didn't Numbersm, and Deuteronomy get written AFTER Exodus? (ie. after Moses went to see God on the mountain)  I find it very curious that God gave Moses the creation story, a history he already knew (including his own), a chapter on laws and rituals, and 2 Chapters worth of the future.
3. If it would take 80 days to write all that, why did he come down after only 40?  WITH the Oral and Written Torah?  You have agreed that he did so at best it would take him only 40 days for both.  But let's go with some math shall we?

The Written Torah consists of 79,847 words. (I'm assuming he wrote even the stuff that didn't happen yet)
Average human hand-writing is 20 words per minute for copying.   This gives us 3992.35 minutes to copy it down.  Which is 66.5 hours. That's not exactly 40 days and 40 nights.  He'd have to be writing at around 2 words a minute and working for 12 hours a day to get around 40 days.  Both times.  And why would he write it down?  Why not let God poof him a scroll?  He'd be done in seconds rather than 2.5 months.

Now God is all powerful and makes land masses in a day.  A stone tablet should be no problem yet it takes 40 times as long.

And you don't watch baseball much.  They talk about what could have happened all the time.

Not in the newspaper report they don't. They might in casual conversation, or in game analysis, but in the basic report of what occurred, or on the nightly news, they don't.

So the holy word of God is nothing more than a newspaper article or the nightly news?  Man, God has serious detail issues.

Also, if I heard a game where the batter hit the ball into the lights then the next thing they said was that he was out, I'd want to know how that happened.

Your point?

That you need to ask questions when things don't make logical sense.