The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Community => Topic started by: Tom Bishop on April 04, 2017, 02:14:32 PM

Title: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 04, 2017, 02:14:32 PM
I came across a youtube video which asks some interesting questions about the angles of the sun and moon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blrDd7aCDnM&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 04, 2017, 04:46:48 PM
Simple explanation: the sun is 93 million miles away. If you draw a line to the sun's apparent position in the sky, yes it would seem that the moon is not properly lighted. But if you create a scale model showing the actual proportional distances from the sun to the earth and to the moon, it actually would be wrong if the lighted area on the moon was not angled towards the actual location of the sun at 93 million miles away.

This is similar to the argument that the sunburst rays coming through the clouds seem to show that the sun is closer than it is. But that is simply because the sun's rays always converge on the sun's location in the sky. The rays would appear the same whether the sun was 3000 miles away or 93 million miles away. You need a measurement from another angle to determine the actual distance which is why astronomers use the location of a more distant planet (usually Venus) to triangulate and thereby calculate the actual distance to the sun. When you view the sun's rays from above, they look parrallel: http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/65112/383292874/stock-photo-sun-rays-on-the-sky-with-clouds-plane-view-above-the-earth-can-be-used-for-background-383292874.jpg
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 04, 2017, 07:40:12 PM
That doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't the angles line up? They would line up in a small scale model of the sun and moon and observer, so why not a larger scale model with the sun 93 million miles away?

Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 05, 2017, 04:16:47 AM
Is anyone else going to attempt to defend the heliocentric model?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: andruszkow on April 05, 2017, 07:29:22 AM
That doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't the angles line up? They would line up in a small scale model of the sun and moon and observer, so why not a larger scale model with the sun 93 million miles away?
Fair enough, then prove that they would line up in a small scale model then. And remember that considering a standard issue office globus, the distance to the moon object is about 10 meters.

Nobody needs to "defend" the heliocentric model any further than the reply you actually got already. You disregard the reply because it doesn't conform to your wishful thinking. If you want to be taken serious, Tom, you need to start presenting some actual evidence. Just like us "round earthers", even the flat earth movement must be sick and tired of you making them look like blatant idiots by now.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: andruszkow on April 05, 2017, 07:31:41 AM
And while you're at it, Tom, please respond to the 3 videos I linked you in the Shaq thread. I know you saw them, and I know you can't refute them. If you can't, just say it. Don't go silent.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 05, 2017, 01:24:26 PM
That doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't the angles line up? They would line up in a small scale model of the sun and moon and observer, so why not a larger scale model with the sun 93 million miles away?
Fair enough, then prove that they would line up in a small scale model then. And remember that considering a standard issue office globus, the distance to the moon object is about 10 meters.

Nobody needs to "defend" the heliocentric model any further than the reply you actually got already. You disregard the reply because it doesn't conform to your wishful thinking. If you want to be taken serious, Tom, you need to start presenting some actual evidence. Just like us "round earthers", even the flat earth movement must be sick and tired of you making them look like blatant idiots by now.

The reply I got merely said that they shouldn't expect to be lined up because the sun is 93 million miles away. ??? ???

We are going to need a better explanation than that.

And while you're at it, Tom, please respond to the 3 videos I linked you in the Shaq thread. I know you saw them, and I know you can't refute them. If you can't, just say it. Don't go silent.

You want me to go off-topic in this thread by talking about an off-topic post you made in another thread? I don't think so. Your videos were ignored in the Shaq thread for a reason. Please stay on topic.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: andruszkow on April 05, 2017, 01:39:05 PM
Remember that the next time you get a reply that actually answers your question. If you cannot take in the relation between distance and perspective as outlined in Nirmala's reply, it makes perfect sense why you still believe the earth is flat and resort to ignorance and ignoring actual, fact based answers that doesn't support your wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 05, 2017, 01:41:57 PM
Is anyone else going to attempt to defend the heliocentric model?

sure.  the video author doesn't understand projections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curvilinear_perspective

http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2011/06/todd-lockwood-curvilinear-perspective.html

http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~amyers/MoonPaperOnline.pdf
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 05, 2017, 01:55:16 PM
Remember that the next time you get a reply that actually answers your question. If you cannot take in the relation between distance and perspective as outlined in Nirmala's reply, it makes perfect sense why you still believe the earth is flat and resort to ignorance and ignoring actual, fact based answers that doesn't support your wishful thinking.

Does geometry stop working when things are 93 million miles away?

http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2011/06/todd-lockwood-curvilinear-perspective.html

The author of this link is just talking pseudoscience to explain the effect. If there are two balls with arrows on them pointing at each other, and those balls get further and further away in the distance, is there ever a point in Ecludian Geometry where the arrows are not pointing at each other?

Clearly not!

We will need to see something more rigerous of this effect to say otherwise, something more tangible than the ridiculous "oh when you look out at the universe it's like looking through a fisheye lens" that author gives. The explanation is clearly against Ecludian Geometry, and provides no supporting evidence whatsoever.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 05, 2017, 03:04:17 PM
Is anyone else going to attempt to defend the heliocentric model?
http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~amyers/MoonPaperOnline.pdf

This purpose of this paper does not even attempt to explain why the effect happens at all. The purpose of this paper is an attempt to derive an equation. From the paper:

Quote
Comparing the observed and expected directions of incoming light at the moon, we derive an equation for the magnitude of the moon tilt illusion that can be applied to all configurations of sun and moon in the sky.


In the paper there is a passing reference that "straight lines become great circles on a celestial sphere":

Quote
The moon tilt illusion is not described in astronomy textbooks because astronomers
know that straight lines in object space become great circles on the celestial sphere.
Minnaert [5] gives only a passing reference: “...the line connecting the horns of the
moon, between its first quarter and full moon, for instance, does not appear to be
at all perpendicular to the direction from sun to moon; we apparently think of this
direction as being a curved line. Fix this direction by stretching a piece of string taut
in front of your eye; however unlikely it may have seemed to you at first you will now
perceive that the condition of perpendicularity is satisfied”.

Celestial sphere?

I'm pretty sure that if we had two balls with arrows pointing at each other, or really just two arrows pointing at each other, they would continue pointing at each other no matter how far away they were from the observer. Open a 3D modeling program and try it. At what point do things become a "celestial sphere" and we are looking through a fish-eye lens?

Apparently they could not explain the effect with any sort of supporting evidence, so they just made something up about the universe looking curved when you look at it. The author even admits that astronomy textbooks avoid talking about the subject altogether. Is it out of shame? The topic of "straight lines look curved in our universe..." seems like a pretty important topic of discussion and deserves a real explanation with real supporting evidence.

Straight lines look curved when they get far away because.... why again? None of the links you have given have answered this at all. They only make offhanded remarks that when we look at the universe it's like we are looking through a fish-eye lens, because of the "celestial sphere"... as if the earth, stars and other objects around you would even matter at all in a simple geometric scene with two bodies and an observer.

Anyone with an IQ above room temperature should be able to see how ridiculous and flimsy this explanation is.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 05, 2017, 07:56:33 PM
So Tom sees a video, jumps around going “what he said, what he said” and then accuses people of having room temperature IQ's, a bit rich.

You are trying to do geometry (something I'm sure you once argued couldn't be trusted  over long distance as it couldn't be proved) on the flat plane of the observed sky, where two items apparently the same size should have angles that are true, when said objects are not only along way off in a third dimension but one of them is 400 times further away than the other.

But more than that, what does it say about your own personal view of the sky, the angles don't work for your system either, when the angles should be truer as the distances involved are much closer.

If anything this proves that the distances are further than they appear to be, and Tom has jumped on another bandwagon before thinking through the consequences.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 05, 2017, 11:20:08 PM
You are trying to do geometry (something I'm sure you once argued couldn't be trusted  over long distance as it couldn't be proved) on the flat plane of the observed sky, where two items apparently the same size should have angles that are true, when said objects are not only along way off in a third dimension but one of them is 400 times further away than the other.

So straight lines aren't straight when long distances are involved?  ???
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 06, 2017, 12:56:13 AM
so i'm trying to do a whole 'be less aggressively sarcastic' thing, and i decided this post wasn't in line with that.  gonna make a few ninja edits and repost.

The author of this link is just talking pseudoscience to explain the effect. If there are two balls with arrows on them pointing at each other, and those balls get further and further away in the distance, is there ever a point in Ecludian Geometry where the arrows are not pointing at each other?

in euclidean space, no.  but if you project those coordinates onto a curvilinear surface, then yes. 

you're correct that in euclidean space, the two arrows will always point at one another.  what you're failing to consider is that the night sky is not a euclidean space; it's a curved surface.  everything we see in the night sky is a projection of 3d objects in 3d space onto a spherical surface.  hence the term 'celestial sphere.'  the night sky appears to us as if we are looking at the interior surface of a sphere.

so, the argument is not 'i dunno everything in the universe is a fish eye lense or whatever.'  the argument is that when you project objects in 3d space onto a 2d surface (like the night sky), euclidean relationships are not preserved.

(http://i.imgur.com/kCfn2f6.png?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/lv9BNvO.png?1)

although it may appear to the observer that the moon does not point in the 'correct' direction (first image), there actually is a straight line path between them (second image).  it's just that this line, when projected onto a curvilinear surface, no longer has a constant slope from the perspective of the observer.

This purpose of this paper does not even attempt to explain why the effect happens at all.

it absolutely does.  read the paper more thoroughly.  you don't need to read all 28 pages, just sections 1-4.  here are the highlights:

Quote
3. How the Observed Slope of a Straight Line Changes

Perspective projection is the basis for human vision.  The moon tilt illusion can be understood and explained by the principles of perspective projection of object space onto a two-dimensional viewing surface.  Before comparing the observed slope of the moon-sun line with its expected slope, it is necessary to consider how the slope of a straight line depends upon the viewer’s orientation.

While  the  slope  of  any  straight  line  in  3-D  space  with  respect  to  any  plane  is constant,  the observed slope  of  the  line  changes  according  to  the  position  of  the observer and his line of sight.
...
4. Cause of Moon Tilt Illusion

With an understanding of how the observed slope of a straight line varies depending upon the direction of the observation, we are in a position to explain the moon tilt illusion.  The same principles of perspective that hold for a straight line in 3-D space apply to the straight sun-moon light ray.  When we view the slope of the light ray at the moon, which is the only place where we can photograph the direction of the light ray, the slope we observe is exactly what one would expect from the principles of perspective projection that form the basis of human vision or photography.  Why,
then, does the observer experience a sense that this direction is wrong when turning his head to look at where the light ray originates?

Quote
...the line connecting the horns of the moon, between its first quarter and full moon, for instance, does not appear to be at all perpendicular to the direction from sun to moon; we apparently think of this direction as being a curved line. Fix this direction by stretching a piece of string taut
in front of your eye; however unlikely it may have seemed to you at first you will now perceive that the condition of perpendicularity is satisfied”.

ironically, this passage tells you how to verify that this explanation is correct.  do the experiment.  take a piece of string and try to make a perpendicular line from the moon to the sun.  you'll find to your surprise that "the condition of perpendicularity is satisfied."  no need to take the word of scientists with room-temperature iqs.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 06, 2017, 03:10:09 AM
All I can say is to be skeptical and try thinking for your own self for once. Posting a picture of a person with a semi-transparent bigger "celestial sphere" surrounding the earth with celestial bodies painted on it is not reality.

If we paint lines on that celestial sphere we can create some curved lines, since the surface is curved, but just how does that apply to the situation in question? Are the sun and moon in RET painted on a spherical pane of glass surrounding the earth? Ridiculous.

There are only three points of interest here. Arrow1, Arrow2, and the observer. The arrows are pointing at each other and no matter where the observer stands the arrows are still pointing at each other. Pretty basic.

Please do not imagine a universe where there is a celestial sphere of glass around the world with the celestial bodies painted on it and tell us this is reality. Every child of five knows that this is not true even in the Round Earth model!
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 06, 2017, 03:17:44 AM
you don't have to take anyone's word for it.  do the experiment yourself.  it'll cost you only the price of a length of twine.

All I can say is to be skeptical and try thinking for your own self for once

lol so you ask for replies, and then insult my intelligence for doing so?  twice?  i can think for myself fine, i've just come to a different conclusion than you have.

Posting a picture of a person with a semi-transparent bigger "celestial sphere" surrounding the earth with celestial bodies painted on it is not reality.

If we paint lines on that celestial sphere we can create some curved lines, since the surface is curved, but just how does that apply to the situation in question? Are the sun and moon in RET painted on a spherical pane of glass surrounding the earth? Ridiculous.

There are only three points of interest here. Arrow1, Arrow2, and the observer. The arrows are pointing at each other and no matter where the observer stands the arrows are still pointing at each other. Pretty basic.

Please do not imagine a universe where there is a celestial sphere of glass around the world and the stars and all celestial bodies are painted on it. Every child of five knows that is not true even in the Round Earth model!

i can't respond to "you're obviously wrong."  you'll have to be more specific.  and you're taking the celestial sphere thing too literally.

what about the night sky appears three-dimensional to you?  why do you think of the night sky as a 3d euclidean space?  yes, i agree that the space between us and the sun/moon is a 3d euclidean space.  but is that how it appears to you when you look at it?  do you see depth in the night sky?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 06, 2017, 03:32:13 AM
In your previous post you said "what you're failing to consider is that the night sky is not a euclidean space; it's a curved surface." Just what are you talking about? In RET the sky isn't a "curved surface". It's not a surface at all. What reason is there to think that we would see it as a surface around us? None.

What you have posted is a desperate attempt to claim that euclidean geometry doesn't apply to the universe.

Don't you see how insane that is to arbitrarily declare that the celestial bodies are painted on some kind of surface? In your second post you claim that this is just how it appears to us. But why? Because astronomers need geometry to be completely different to explain how this could work? I see no reason, none at all, for why the bodies should appear to us as if they were painted on a surface. This claim is a complete astronomical fantasy.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 06, 2017, 03:33:23 AM
Simple to actually do the geometry. Watching the video, it is pretty clear that the moon is in its first quarter and the sun is getting low in the sky. Using the animation presented here: https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/nasa/measuringuniverse/spacemath1/p/animate-phases-of-the-moon you can get a relative position of the sun, moon and observer on the earth, as pictured below (not to scale). Note that the red dot is the observer who is on the surface of the earth and about to rotate out of the sunlight and into the dark night. If you were standing where the red dot is located, the moon would be overhead and the sun would be nearing the horizon in the west, just as the video showed.

Now get a very long roll of paper, and recreate the modeled positions of the earth, moon and sun as shown below, only this time draw them all to scale. So let's say you draw the earth as 1/2 inch diameter circle. Then the moon would be a circle about 1/16th of an inch in diameter and it would be located about 15 inches below the earth on the roll of paper.

Now to draw the sun on the paper to scale, you would need to unroll the paper so that you can draw a 4 and 1/2 foot circle or at least the partial circumference of that circle 484 feet away from both the earth and sun. Now draw the lighted and dark areas onto the earth and moon. so that the dark areas are opposite the sun that is 484 feet away on your unrolled piece of paper. You will see that the dark areas are in the exact positions as shown on the not to scale model depicted below, which also just happen to  match what the maker of that video observed: the dark area of the moon was facing to the east and the moon was pretty much overhead, while the sun was low in the sky to the west and about to set.

It naturally is hard to visualize such extreme distances, but this is actually simple geometry. It is just extreme in the sense that two sides of the triangle between the sun, earth and moon are both about 93,000,000 miles long.  The sun is low in the sky because the earth is rotating away from it, but the moon is up there high in the sky with the sunlight that is striking it from the west....but from a very great distance.

Here is a fun attempt to demonstrate the scale of our solar system in a way that we can start to comprehend the extreme distances involved, compared to the scale of distances we normally encounter on earth: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2015/09/18/this-scale-model-of-the-solar-system-is-truly-mind-boggling/?utm_term=.e00985163f99

And here is the NOT to scale model of the earth, sun, moon and observer (red dot) as they would have been located in the video:

Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 06, 2017, 04:01:48 AM
Is anyone else going to attempt to defend the heliocentric model?
Too easy. 

Here's an experiment anyone (including you Tom) can do.  Next time the moon is in a crescent phase and the sun is up with clear skies, hold a small ball out at arm's length toward the moon.  You'll see the same phase on the ball (also lining up with the moon's phase), and now turn you head toward the sun.  The same effect occurs with the ball. 
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 06, 2017, 04:04:27 AM
Nirmala,

I read your message but, I am sorry, I don't really understand what you are trying to say at all, except that the large distances involved somehow make angles not work.

You are going to have to be a little more clear in why angles don't work on big scales.

model 29,

Why should we assume that the results of that experiment would be how you wish them to be?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 06, 2017, 04:09:14 AM
Don't assume then.  Go ahead and try it. 
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 06, 2017, 04:25:21 AM
honestly, i don't think you're really trying to understand what i'm saying, and you definitely haven't read the sources i posted with any care at all.  the paper in particular explains all of this and gives real-world examples of the phenomena that you can verify on your own.  see: section 3.  again, testing this yourself costs nothing but time and twine.  you don't have to take anyone's word for anything here.  do the experiment.

In your previous post you said "what you're failing to consider is that the night sky is not a euclidean space; it's a curved surface." Just what are you talking about? In RET the sky isn't a "curved surface". It's not a surface at all. What reason is there to think that we would see it as a surface around us? None.

What you have posted is a desperate attempt to claim that euclidean geometry doesn't apply to the universe.

you're being too literal.  or i'm not explaining myself well.  or both.

i'm not saying there's a literal surface on which everything is embedded.  i agree that the earth, moon, and sun, inhabit euclidean space.  i'm saying that the night sky is a geometric surface on which images of the sun, moon, and stars we see are projected.

think about a planetarium, which in this case is literally projecting light onto a physical surface.  why do they choose to project it onto a spherical surface?  why aren't planetariums cube-shaped?  or pyramid-shaped?  why always a spherical surface?

Don't you see how insane that is to arbitrarily declare that the celestial bodies are painted on some kind of surface? In your second post you claim that this is just how it appears to us. But why? Because astronomers need geometry to be completely different to explain how this could work? I see no reason, none at all, for why the bodies should appear to us as if they were painted on a surface. This claim is a complete astronomical fantasy.

so forget for a second about surfaces and projections and everything else, and let's just talk about how the night sky appears to you.  does it have any depth?  is the night sky 3-dimensional?  when you look at stars and the moon and all that, can you tell how far away they are by looking at them?

suppose you wanted to make a coordinate system for the night sky to be able to mark the location of everything you can see in it.  let's say you want to map the night sky or something.  how many parameters would you need to describe the location of a star in the sky/on the map?  would you need to specify depth in any way to find a star?

again, to be clear, i'm asking about the way things appear in the sky.  of course the stars are not painted onto anything.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 06, 2017, 04:25:56 AM
Nirmala,

I read your message but, I am sorry, I don't really understand what you are trying to say at all, except that the large distances involved somehow make angles not work.

You are going to have to be a little more clear in why angles don't work on big scales.


The video suggests that the angle between the line connecting the earth and the moon and the line connecting the moon and the sun should be fairly sharp, say somewhere between 30 and 45 degrees. But if you draw the geometry to scale, you will discover that the angle between those two lines is extremely close to 90 degrees. With the light coming in from the west at almost 90 degrees to the moon up in the sky, the light and dark areas would be just as they were observed in the video.

If you did draw a line at 45 degrees to the line connecting the observer on the earth to the moon and then put the sun 93,000,000 miles away on that line, the sun would be way below the horizon, and the video would have to have been taken at night.

Try actually drawing something using a smaller scale with say a 1/32 inch earth, a small dot for the moon an inch away, and the sun 3 and 1/2 inches in diameter 30 feet away. Maybe if you actually drew it out and then imagined standing on the sphere of the tiny earth (humor me here) facing almost 90 degrees away from that distant sun, and then look up at the even tinier moon which is being lit up by that sun 30 feet away to the side.

If you can't visualize it, then you can't. But the geometry works for a model of the earth and sun in keeping with the round earth theory. And lo and behold, it actually corresponds to what the video shows! What a coincidence! Or maybe the round earth model with a sun 93 million miles is simply correct.

I have never seen any reasonable or consistent explanation for the phases of the moon with a flat earth model....and as the video suggests, the angles do not work if the sun is as close at it might appear to be. So which is true? The simple and consistent explanation using simple geometry, or the unexplained mystery that the moon's shape just changes up in the sky with no discernible relationship to the sun's light?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 06, 2017, 04:31:56 AM
Tom, I have noticed that you are quite willing to question the information in the posts put up on here by round earth people, but that you rarely offer any explanations that actually make sense using a flat earth model. On the discusssion you and I had about flight paths in the southern hemisphere, you kept asking me for more and more data. And I provided it. But you never once presented either a flat earth map that matched the data or contradictory data that somehow supported your position.

And on here, you keep doubting and questioning the explanations offered for what is observed in the video, but you don't offer your own explanation.

Why do you think the moon appeared the way it did in the video? How do you explain that the angles do not "appear" correct?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 06, 2017, 05:57:53 AM
Don't assume then.  Go ahead and try it.

It is night right now and I would need to find a time when the moon and sun are both in the sky together. By the time this happens I will probably have forgotten all about your experiment. It is really up to you to perform your own proposed experiments if you are trying to prove something that might help your argument, not ask your opponent to.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 06, 2017, 06:14:01 AM
honestly, i don't think you're really trying to understand what i'm saying, and you definitely haven't read the sources i posted with any care at all.  the paper in particular explains all of this and gives real-world examples of the phenomena that you can verify on your own.  see: section 3.  again, testing this yourself costs nothing but time and twine.  you don't have to take anyone's word for anything here.  do the experiment.

What am I supposed to do in this experiment? Here is the quote again:


Perhaps you can rephrase what we are supposed to do in this experiment. We hold up the string and align the ends with the moon and sun and pull it taught in front of our eyes? That would just create a straight line path between the sun and the moon.

Quote
i'm not saying there's a literal surface on which everything is embedded.  i agree that the earth, moon, and sun, inhabit euclidean space.  i'm saying that the night sky is a geometric surface on which images of the sun, moon, and stars we see are projected.

Why is there a geometric surface on which the images of the sun, moon, and stars are projected? You are just saying that it happens because it happens, without any real explanation.

If you create a scene in Maya or another 3D modeling program and place little balls all around your camera, are we looking at something projected on a "celestial sphere" when we pan around and look at those balls? Would it really make a difference if those balls are 1000 units away or 100,000,000 units away?

Quote
think about a planetarium, which in this case is literally projecting light onto a physical surface.  why do they choose to project it onto a spherical surface?  why aren't planetariums cube-shaped?  or pyramid-shaped?  why always a spherical surface?

A planetarium is just a movie on a curved screen. When we look up at the universe we are not looking at a movie on a screen. Can't you see that there is a difference?

Quote
so forget for a second about surfaces and projections and everything else, and let's just talk about how the night sky appears to you.  does it have any depth?  is the night sky 3-dimensional?  when you look at stars and the moon and all that, can you tell how far away they are by looking at them?

No, you cannot tell how far away they are.

Quote
suppose you wanted to make a coordinate system for the night sky to be able to mark the location of everything you can see in it.  let's say you want to map the night sky or something.  how many parameters would you need to describe the location of a star in the sky/on the map?  would you need to specify depth in any way to find a star?

again, to be clear, i'm asking about the way things appear in the sky.  of course the stars are not painted onto anything.

The stars would just be around you in euclidean space -- like in the 3D model example I mentioned above where you have some balls surrounding you. You look up, and you see some balls. You look right, and you see some more balls. If two of those objects were arrows pointing at each other, you would see them pointing at each other; you would not see them pointing away from each other. I don't see where the celestial sphere is a necessary consequence of this.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 06, 2017, 07:52:28 AM
So you admit you don’t see what we’re saying (10th dan in missing the point), you won’t do the simple experiment that Gary and others have offered as you don’t know when the moon will be in the daytime sky, well the “children’s” moon is often in the sky,
 •  Look within a week or so of the date of full moon.
•  Before full moon, look for the daytime moon in the afternoon.
•  After full moon, look for the daytime moon in the morning
(waxing gibbous tonight 6th April so you are on, although being near the equinox the discrepancy won't be profound).

In the meantime answer Nirmala and my earlier point, does your model explain the problem you see with the angles?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 06, 2017, 08:33:30 PM
So you admit you don’t see what we’re saying (10th dan in missing the point), you won’t do the simple experiment that Gary and others have offered as you don’t know when the moon will be in the daytime sky, well the “children’s” moon is often in the sky,
 •  Look within a week or so of the date of full moon.
•  Before full moon, look for the daytime moon in the afternoon.
•  After full moon, look for the daytime moon in the morning
(waxing gibbous tonight 6th April so you are on, although being near the equinox the discrepancy won't be profound).

A full moon with the sun in the sky isn't supposed to ever happen in the Round Earth model. You want me to perform an experiment that cannot happen?

Why do I need to perform some kind of experiment to confirm someone else's argument? If you are making a claim that a certain experiment will confirm your argument, YOU need to do the experiment.

Quote
In the meantime answer Nirmala and my earlier point, does your model explain the problem you see with the angles?

I would say that the effect is a confirmation of the long-postulated Flat Earth mechanism which places the sun lower than it actually is over a Flat Earth. There are several mechanisms which have been proposed over the years. Mechanisms have been proposed ranging from an atmospheric effect, to the Electromagnetic Accelerator which bend light rays, to a perspective effect, and further analysis and consideration would need to be conducted to say which effect this observation most strongly supports. The video in the OP shows that the sun actually does appear lower than where the moon thinks it is. If this mechanism did not exist, the sun would at all times be above the surface of the earth and night and day could not exist.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rama Set on April 06, 2017, 08:48:01 PM
So you admit you don’t see what we’re saying (10th dan in missing the point), you won’t do the simple experiment that Gary and others have offered as you don’t know when the moon will be in the daytime sky, well the “children’s” moon is often in the sky,
 •  Look within a week or so of the date of full moon.
•  Before full moon, look for the daytime moon in the afternoon.
•  After full moon, look for the daytime moon in the morning
(waxing gibbous tonight 6th April so you are on, although being near the equinox the discrepancy won't be profound).

A full moon with the sun in the sky isn't supposed to ever happen in the Round Earth model. You want me to perform an experiment that cannot happen?

Incorrect. At 66.5 latitude you can see both simultaneously because the moon is not directly on the ecliptic.

Quote
Why do I need to perform some kind of experiment to confirm someone else's argument? If you are making a claim that an experiment will confirm your argument, YOU need to do the experiment.

Because you only value first hand experience?

Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 06, 2017, 09:40:30 PM
So you admit you don’t see what we’re saying (10th dan in missing the point), you won’t do the simple experiment that Gary and others have offered as you don’t know when the moon will be in the daytime sky, well the “children’s” moon is often in the sky,
 •  Look within a week or so of the date of full moon.
•  Before full moon, look for the daytime moon in the afternoon.
•  After full moon, look for the daytime moon in the morning
(waxing gibbous tonight 6th April so you are on, although being near the equinox the discrepancy won't be profound).

A full moon with the sun in the sky isn't supposed to ever happen in the Round Earth model. You want me to perform an experiment that cannot happen?

Incorrect. At 66.5 latitude you can see both simultaneously because the moon is not directly on the ecliptic.

Quote
Why do I need to perform some kind of experiment to confirm someone else's argument? If you are making a claim that an experiment will confirm your argument, YOU need to do the experiment.

Because you only value first hand experience?

Where have I ever said that? Don't you see me quoting Rowbotham all the time?

If you have an experiment for us that will confirm something you believe to be in your favor, it is your responsibility to perform the experiment. Telling us to go here, wait this long, and do this and that to perform some experiment which you blindly assume will produce a result favorable to your argument doesn't fly. Your claim, your burden.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 06, 2017, 09:45:41 PM

See you didn't even bother to read what I put.

 •  Look within a week or so of the date of full moon.
•  Before full moon, look for the daytime moon in the afternoon.
•  After full moon, look for the daytime moon in the morning
(waxing gibbous tonight 6th April so you are on, although being near the equinox the discrepancy won't be profound).

And as you are as rigorous with your experiments (which beach?) as you are with your ability to to read and reason, it wouldn't amount to much.

As has been posted before, you ask for a good deal of proof/information from us (which you ignore or misquote), but when it comes to your explanations it's all just fairy dust and conjecture.

What matters here is not which way Tom will squirm as he loses another argument, that is a given. Just that any third party who is undecided sees. I went out this evening and did the string thing (well a retractable dog lead actually) and it works, I and I suspect others will do it and come to their own conclusions. Tom, you continue searching you-tube, and never go out and actually look up, we'll be here to put you right.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: andruszkow on April 06, 2017, 10:12:21 PM
So you admit you don’t see what we’re saying (10th dan in missing the point), you won’t do the simple experiment that Gary and others have offered as you don’t know when the moon will be in the daytime sky, well the “children’s” moon is often in the sky,
 •  Look within a week or so of the date of full moon.
•  Before full moon, look for the daytime moon in the afternoon.
•  After full moon, look for the daytime moon in the morning
(waxing gibbous tonight 6th April so you are on, although being near the equinox the discrepancy won't be profound).

A full moon with the sun in the sky isn't supposed to ever happen in the Round Earth model. You want me to perform an experiment that cannot happen?

Incorrect. At 66.5 latitude you can see both simultaneously because the moon is not directly on the ecliptic.

Quote
Why do I need to perform some kind of experiment to confirm someone else's argument? If you are making a claim that an experiment will confirm your argument, YOU need to do the experiment.

Because you only value first hand experience?

Where have I ever said that? Don't you see me quoting Rowbotham all the time?

If you have an experiment for us that will confirm something you believe to be in your favor, it is your responsibility to perform the experiment. Telling us to go here, wait this long, and do this and that to perform some experiment which you blindly assume will produce a result favorable to your argument doesn't fly. Your claim, your burden.
This is what science normally is about though. Someone makes a claim based on observation and write up a theory that supports the observation. Peers test it.

We're not making any claims. We're merely repeating what has been proven over and over. You claim its impossible. You claim that a model otherwise regarded as accurate is wrong. You claim the earth is flat. The burden of proof is really on you and what we're asking of you is really, really simple.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Boots on April 06, 2017, 10:14:55 PM
The real question is, when is sex-pest going to swoop in to the rescue.

(I've got this junker)

Low content post. Warned.

Sorry. Won't happen again, at least not today.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 06, 2017, 11:39:39 PM
People who want to know the truth will experiment.  People who want to live a delusion will use YouTube videos to confirm it.

So, Tom, how do you explain the apparent  incorrect​ angle with your flat earth theory?

I just did some experimenting with a very bright flashlight far away and a golf ball.  If I put the flashing very far away I could duplicate the angles I saw today.

 Tom, by the way you can see the moon during day right now.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rounder on April 07, 2017, 02:38:59 AM
Why do I need to perform some kind of experiment to confirm someone else's argument? If you are making a claim that a certain experiment will confirm your argument, YOU need to do the experiment.

If you have an experiment for us that will confirm something you believe to be in your favor, it is your responsibility to perform the experiment. Telling us to go here, wait this long, and do this and that to perform some experiment which you blindly assume will produce a result favorable to your argument doesn't fly. Your claim, your burden.

I'll tell you why we want you to perform the experiment.  If one of us does it, you won't be convinced.  If many of us did it, heck if ALL of us did it, you wouldn't be convinced.  Mabe if YOU do it, you will be convinced.  Or maybe you can show us why it doesn't mean what we think it means.

This is the same reason we so very much want the DETAILS of your eponymous experiment: some among us (who did not propose it and do not believe it) want to attempt it and either be convinced, or show you why it doesn't mean what you think it means.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 07, 2017, 03:20:39 AM
i think you're still misunderstanding what i'm trying to say.  i agree that all of these objects are in 3d, euclidean space.  the path light takes between the sun and the moon is a straight line.  i'm talking about the way this straight line path appears to us based on our perspective.

it's like watching an airplane fly into and out of view.  from our perspective on the ground, it comes into view at the horizon, makes an arced path across the sky, and then goes out of view at another bit of horizon.  the airplane flies a straight line path in 3d, euclidean space, but we see that path as an arc with each endpoint on the horizon.

now imagine that the straight line path of the airplane is a beam of light.  the path of the light beam is straight, but to us it looks curved.  it's just perspective.

A planetarium is just a movie on a curved screen. When we look up at the universe we are not looking at a movie on a screen. Can't you see that there is a difference?

why a curved screen, though?  why not a cube-shaped room, or a pyramid-shaped room, or a hexagon, or any other shape?  why do they all choose a spherical shape?

No, you cannot tell how far away they are.
precisely.  the night sky doesn't appear to us to have any depth.  it looks like a surface.  so all the 3d stuff way out in 3d outer space looks to us like it's on a 2d surface.  that's why the moon looks like a circle and not like a sphere.

you say i'm giving you no explanations, but i'm really just asking you to rely on some very basic observations about how things appear to us.  does the sky look 3d to you, or 2d?  if it looks 2d, but it's actually a 3d space, then do you think this might affect how things way out in space appear to you?

ultimately, your argument implicitly assumes that all straight lines always appear straight to us.  that no straight line path can ever appear curved.  you only have to look around your room to see that this isn't the case.  or read section 3 of the paper.  or both, i guess.  i mean you're probably gonna have to look around your room at some point anyway.  might as well get two birds stoned at once.

also the more i think about it, i'm not sure the twine thing will work.  but i can't tell if that's just because i'm picturing sun-moon orientations that aren't real.  i'll get some twine and try it the next time i see the moon out at dusk.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 07, 2017, 03:33:57 AM
Don't assume then.  Go ahead and try it.

It is night right now and I would need to find a time when the moon and sun are both in the sky together. By the time this happens I will probably have forgotten all about your experiment. It is really up to you to perform your own proposed experiments if you are trying to prove something that might help your argument, not ask your opponent to.
They were both in the sky together today.  You don't even really need the moon to be up.  With the sun 40 degrees or so up to your right, hold a ball up to your left, note the angle of it's "phase" and then turn your head toward the sun.  You'll get the effect with the ball regardless if the moon is up.

Anyway, I already tried it.  That's why I know what the results will be. 
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 07, 2017, 04:26:43 AM
Don't assume then.  Go ahead and try it.

It is night right now and I would need to find a time when the moon and sun are both in the sky together. By the time this happens I will probably have forgotten all about your experiment. It is really up to you to perform your own proposed experiments if you are trying to prove something that might help your argument, not ask your opponent to.
They were both in the sky together today.  You don't even really need the moon to be up.  With the sun 40 degrees or so up to your right, hold a ball up to your left, note the angle of it's "phase" and then turn your head toward the sun.  You'll get the effect with the ball regardless if the moon is up.

Anyway, I already tried it.  That's why I know what the results will be.
I tried it today too.  The phase of the tennis ball was identical to the moon.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 07, 2017, 07:12:56 AM


also the more i think about it, i'm not sure the twine thing will work.  but i can't tell if that's just because i'm picturing sun-moon orientations that aren't real.  i'll get some twine and try it the next time i see the moon out at dusk.

I think it's just perspective, when I went out, the moon in respect to the sun looked canted upwards, when I stretched the lead between the two it no longer did, as has been said your eyes perceive the sky as a dome when it isn't, just an optical illusion that the string cancels.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 07, 2017, 04:14:25 PM

Quote
In the meantime answer Nirmala and my earlier point, does your model explain the problem you see with the angles?

I would say that the effect is a confirmation of the long-postulated Flat Earth mechanism which places the sun lower than it actually is over a Flat Earth. There are several mechanisms which have been proposed over the years. Mechanisms have been proposed ranging from an atmospheric effect, to the Electromagnetic Accelerator, to a perspective effect, and further analysis and consideration would need to be conducted to say which effect this observation most strongly supports. The video in the OP shows that the sun actually does appear lower than where the moon thinks it is. If this mechanism did not exist, the sun would at all times be above the horizon and night and day could not exist.

Of course there is a simpler explanation for why the sun sets and why night and day exist that does not require several bizarre and illogical possible mechanisms to explain what we observe every day. The earth rotates away from it  ::)
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 07, 2017, 06:05:29 PM
So here is how it seems to work, it's 7.00 here and I've just come in from doing this. When you look from the moon rising in the east around to the setting sun you invariably swivel, consequently your eyes draw a line parralel to the horizon as the natural line between the two, but it isn't, when you get a piece of string and stretch it, the line is much higher and does indeed bisect the moon as it should, neat, it's an optical illusion, thanks Tom, it's always good to learn something new.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 07, 2017, 10:07:27 PM
One can pretty much do the same thing in a hallway.  Look at the upper corner along the ceiling to your left.  It appears to pointing up towards a spot that should be high above your right.  Look to the right.  That straight line continues to the right apparently downward and much lower.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 08, 2017, 03:02:48 PM
So here is how it seems to work, it's 7.00 here and I've just come in from doing this. When you look from the moon rising in the east around to the setting sun you invariably swivel, consequently your eyes draw a line parralel to the horizon as the natural line between the two, but it isn't, when you get a piece of string and stretch it, the line is much higher and does indeed bisect the moon as it should, neat, it's an optical illusion, thanks Tom, it's always good to learn something new.

nice, thanks for checking.  i think i was imagining moon/sun configurations that don't happen.  gonna give this a shot myself next time i have a decent view of a daytime moon.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 08, 2017, 03:51:00 PM
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in down to the minute under RET.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 08, 2017, 03:56:02 PM
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in RET down to the minute.
The apparent​ angle difference has nothing to do with sunrise and sunset calculators.  The string is brilliant because it shows that the angles are actually congruent.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 08, 2017, 04:05:10 PM
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in RET down to the minute.
The apparent​ angle difference has nothing to do with sunrise and sunset calculators.  The string is brilliant because it shows that the angles are actually congruent.

You can't claim that there is a perspective effect, or a whatever effect, that is making the sun much lower to the ground than it actually is. This contradicts the claims that we can compute the position of the sun with Round Earth orbital models very easily.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 08, 2017, 04:05:49 PM
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in RET down to the minute.
The apparent​ angle difference has nothing to do with sunrise and sunset calculators.  The string is brilliant because it shows that the angles are actually congruent.

You can't claim that there is a perspective, or whatever, effect that is making the sun much lower to the ground than it actually is. This contradicts the claims that we can compute the position of the sun with Round Earth orbital models very easily.
Perspective isn't making the sun appear lower than it is.  Perspective makes it appear like the angles don't align between the moon and the sun.  Once you put a string between the two you see that the sting bisects each just like it should.  The same thing happens in a long hallway.  The ceiling appears to rise up when looking down each end.  In reality it is straight.  A string works in the hallway too.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 08, 2017, 04:08:40 PM
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in RET down to the minute.
The apparent​ angle difference has nothing to do with sunrise and sunset calculators.  The string is brilliant because it shows that the angles are actually congruent.

You can't claim that there is a perspective, or whatever, effect that is making the sun much lower to the ground than it actually is. This contradicts the claims that we can compute the position of the sun with Round Earth orbital models very easily.
Perspective isn't making the sun appear lower than it is.  Perspective makes it appear like the angles don't align.  Once you put a string between the two you see that the sting bisects each just like it should.  The same thing happens in a long hallway.  The ceiling appears to rise up when looking down each end.  I reality it is straight.

You just said that it's a perspective effect with the hallway analogy. Like the sun is just down the hallway!

This actually suggests that the sun is much closer to the earth to be affected so severely by perspective, but I digress:

You cannot claim that the sun is lowered so severely by perspective because we have Round Earth orbital models which can easily and precisely compute the sun's position in the sky. How does that work?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 08, 2017, 04:11:03 PM
Tom, the sun doesn't look lower.  The angle between them just appear to not converge.  Tom, did you try the string like the rest of us?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 08, 2017, 04:38:18 PM
Tom, the sun doesn't look lower.  The angle between them just appear to not converge.  Tom, did you try the string like the rest of us?

What are you talking about? Does a plane not look lower when it is over head than when it is off in the distance?

That's a perspective effect. You are claiming that the 93 million mile distant sun is lowered due to a perspective effect. The hallway example, the ceiling example, those are perspective effects, something you are attributing this event to.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 08, 2017, 05:34:44 PM
i sort of see what you're getting at, tom, but you're still not getting the explanation quite right.

you're talking about it as if i'm saying that the sun appears to be in a different location than it really is, but that's not what i'm saying.  i'm saying that the straight line path between the sun and the moon does not appear straight to us.  the moon and the sun are where they appear to be, but the spacial relationship between them is distorted from our vantage point here on earth.

so, for example, the 90 deg intersection of the wall and the ceiling in my room makes a straight line, and it connects two corners; it forms a straight line path between two points.  but this straight line path doesn't appear straight to me.  now, the illusion is not that the corners of my room look lower than they really are.  if i walk toward either corner, i have no trouble finding it.  it is where it appears to be.  but my perspective of the world around me is not perfectly euclidean.  again, sections 3 and 4 of the paper i posted describe all of this in more detail and probably better writing.

in other words, you're making it sound as if the explanation is that these objects appear in different locations than they truly are in euclidean space.  the actual explanation is that the way we see things is not a perfectly euclidean representation of the things we see.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 08, 2017, 06:41:46 PM
Tom, the sun doesn't look lower.  The angle between them just appear to not converge.  Tom, did you try the string like the rest of us?

What are you talking about? Does a plane not look lower when it is over head than when it is off in the distance?

That's a perspective effect. You are claiming that the 93 million mile distant sun is lowered due to a perspective effect. The hallway example, the ceiling example, those are perspective effects, something you are attributing this event to.
Here are some pictures of my living room.  When I look left (first picture) the ceiling line appears to point up upwards.  When I look right (second picture) the ceiling line appears to point upwards.   In reality neither points upward.  If the moon phase was in the left corner and at a right angle to the to the intersection line it would appear to point upwards from my perspective. In reality it would point directly to the opposite corner.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 09, 2017, 07:59:11 PM
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in down to the minute under RET.

Tom, the sun is exactly where it's supposed to be, as is the moon. The optical illusion comes when you try to join them, you can't look at them both at the same time as they are opposite each other, when you do it with just your eyes the angle looks wrong, so you hold the string where the sun is and stretch it over to where the moon is and the angle is right, try it, simple empirical proof.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 09, 2017, 08:38:06 PM
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in down to the minute under RET.

Tom, the sun is exactly where it's supposed to be, as is the moon. The optical illusion comes when you try to join them, you can't look at them both at the same time as they are opposite each other, when you do it with just your eyes the angle looks wrong, so you hold the string where the sun is and stretch it over to where the moon is and the angle is right, try it, simple empirical proof.

The person in the video in the OP already followed the straight line path to where the moon is pointing. It doesn't point towards the sun.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 09, 2017, 08:39:26 PM
Nice try, but Round Earth Theory can't claim that this is some kind of perspective effect that makes the sun significantly lower than it actually is. We are told here all the time that there are Sunrise and Sunset calculators that will predict the time of the sunrise and sunset in down to the minute under RET.

Tom, the sun is exactly where it's supposed to be, as is the moon. The optical illusion comes when you try to join them, you can't look at them both at the same time as they are opposite each other, when you do it with just your eyes the angle looks wrong, so you hold the string where the sun is and stretch it over to where the moon is and the angle is right, try it, simple empirical proof.

The person in the video in the OP already followed the straight line path to where the moon is pointing. It doesn't point towards the sun.

Did you try it though?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 09, 2017, 09:11:07 PM
Did you try it though?

I have not. But the straight line path is clearly not pointing towards the sun in that video and there is no reason to think that the video was faked. Gary provided some links showing that other people have seen this as well. I find no reason to call them liars.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 09, 2017, 09:16:39 PM
Did you try it though?

I have not. But the straight line path is clearly not pointing towards the sun in that video and there is no reason to think that the video was faked. Gary provided some links showing that other people have seen this as well. I find no reason to call them liars, unlike some organizations which give us reason to.
No one is saying it's fake.  Several us went outside this week to see it for ourselves.  I'd did the string thing and I held up a ball next to the moon. The phases of the ball and the phase of the moon matched.  I'm just surprised you didn't go out and look at things for yourself.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 09, 2017, 10:11:12 PM
No one is saying it's fake.  Several us went outside this week to see it for ourselves.  I'd did the string thing and I held up a ball next to the moon. The phases of the ball and the phase of the moon matched.  I'm just surprised you didn't go out and look at things for yourself.

If you are not calling him a liar and if you are not denying his observation of the moon phase not lining up with the sun, then how do you explain the event?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 10, 2017, 12:02:48 AM
No one is saying it's fake.  Several us went outside this week to see it for ourselves.  I'd did the string thing and I held up a ball next to the moon. The phases of the ball and the phase of the moon matched.  I'm just surprised you didn't go out and look at things for yourself.

If you are not calling him a liar and if you are not denying his observation of the moon phase not lining up with the sun, then how do you explain the event?
Tom, there have multiple explanations within your own thread here.  Did you not read them?  Secondly, you have never once given an explanation for why it happens on a flat earth.  What is the flat earth explanation for why the angles appear not to align?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 10, 2017, 04:17:11 AM
No one is saying it's fake.  Several us went outside this week to see it for ourselves.  I'd did the string thing and I held up a ball next to the moon. The phases of the ball and the phase of the moon matched.  I'm just surprised you didn't go out and look at things for yourself.

If you are not calling him a liar and if you are not denying his observation of the moon phase not lining up with the sun, then how do you explain the event?
Tom, there have multiple explanations within your own thread here.  Did you not read them?

First I was told that this was an effect of the celestial sphere and the sun and moon were painted on an invisible pane of curved glass, which is pretty ridiculous and not reality. Then I was told that it was a perspective effect which made the sun lower than it actually was, which contradicts our supposed ability to predict the location of the sun with orbital models.

I was told to get a shoe string and trace a line where the phase is pointing and I would reach the sun. The video in the OP provides a direct contradiction to this suggestion.

So where are we at?

Am I to believe that if I booted up Maya 3D or some program like that and put a moon in the sky and the sun shining at it, that we could reproduce this effect? I see that you have access to a 3D modeling program. You should know without even trying that this is impossible.

Quote
Secondly, you have never once given an explanation for why it happens on a flat earth.  What is the flat earth explanation for why the angles appear not to align?

I provide an interpretation here:

I would say that the effect is a confirmation of the long-postulated Flat Earth mechanism which places the sun lower than it actually is over a Flat Earth. There are several mechanisms which have been proposed over the years. Mechanisms have been proposed ranging from an atmospheric effect, to the Electromagnetic Accelerator which bends light rays, to a perspective effect, and further analysis and consideration would need to be conducted to say which effect this observation most strongly supports. The video in the OP shows that the sun actually does appear lower than where the moon thinks it is. If this mechanism did not exist, the sun would at all times be above the surface of the earth and night and day could not exist.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 10, 2017, 04:29:11 AM
Tom, no model is necessary.  I took a tennis ball and help up right next to the view of the moon.  The phase on the tennis ball was identical to the phase on the moon.

Nobody ever said the sun appeared lower.  That was an invention of your own mind. 

Making the sun lower doesn't solve the problem of angles that appear to be non-congruent.  How is that explanation coherent in your mind?

Did you read this explanation or did you just not understand it?
http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2011/06/todd-lockwood-curvilinear-perspective.html?m=1

Lastly, you've got a few days  to get a piece of string so you line it up and see for yourself.  The string really does bisect the moon phase.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 10, 2017, 05:26:39 AM
Quote
Tom, no model is necessary.

Yes, a model is unnecessary -- because this effect is, quite obviously, impossible to model. The thought of attempting such a thing should not ever enter the mind of anyone with basic spacial reasoning abilities beyond childhood.

Quote
I took a tennis ball and help up right next to the view of the moon.  The phase on the tennis ball was identical to the phase on the moon.

We all have cameras in our pockets now. Why didn't you take a picture?

Quote
Nobody ever said the sun appeared lower.  That was an invention of your own mind.

In the video in the OP the author illustrated that the sun appears lower than where the moon thinks it is. This thread has been proposing  effects to explain why this is. 

Quote
Making the sun lower doesn't solve the problem of angles that appear to be non-congruent.  How is that explanation coherent in your mind?

A mechanism which is bending the light or placing the sun lower than it actually is through other means would present non-congruent angles. The video in the OP seems to verify that there is such a mechanism in operation.

Quote
Did you read this explanation or did you just not understand it?
http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2011/06/todd-lockwood-curvilinear-perspective.html?m=1

This man is claiming that there is an invisible pane of curved glass surrounding the earth and that the moon and sun are painted on that glass. This does not appear to fit the Round Earth model, so we must toss it.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 10, 2017, 05:51:28 AM
Tom, the angles appearing to not line up is an illusion.  Get a piece a string lined up.  Once you align the string your brain will interpreted things as they are.

Don't the angles have to appear to line up regardless of a distant sun or a near sun?  If they don't isn't there some explanation needed either way?

You are a zetetist right?  I've got to take pictures now for you too? So the whole time the discussion was happening the moon was up during the day and you didn't look at it for yourself?

The picture is actually difficult to capture.  The camera wants to focus on the ball and blur out the moon. I tried many different balls to try and get the shot.  None turned out very well.  I've designed airplanes for a living but never could take very good photos.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 10, 2017, 05:57:15 AM
This is the best I could get.  The moon is the fuzzy white spot to the right of the ball. The shot is useless which is why I never posted it.  I think I'll put a ball up on a long stick next time.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 10, 2017, 06:11:11 AM
If you say that is the moon's phase I will take your word for it. We must now explain why the angle of the rays which are entering the earth's atmosphere do not match up with the apparent position of the sun in the sky.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: andruszkow on April 10, 2017, 06:17:38 AM


If you say that't the moon's phase I will take your word for it. We must now explain why the angle of the rays which are entering the earth's atmosphere do not match up with the apparent position of the sun in the sky.

But they do, Tom, you're being offset by an effect that leaves you the same illusion as crepuscular rays does.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 10, 2017, 06:23:28 AM
In reality they do, Tom.  The light from the sun lit the ball in the same manner it lit the moon.  All the curvlinear perspective stuff that you dismissed is how a brain interpretes wide fields.  This is why the the sky is called  a celestial sphere.   It appears to be one. The only things that our brain interpretes as straight are the ones that we directly look at.  When you hold up the string the brain has a reference to interpreted the wide field and the coherent angles can be recognized.     
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 10, 2017, 07:14:00 AM
What nonsense. The celestial bodies are not painted on a curved sphere of glass surrounding the earth.

The person in the video in the OP made a straight line path away from the moon. It did not lead to the sun.

Since you have a 3D modeling program available, perhaps you can put an arrow in the sky pointing at a ball and show us how we can look at it in a way that the arrow does not point at the ball.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 10, 2017, 07:34:06 AM
Buy some string, Tom.  Starting on the 12th sun will be visible in the western horizon in the morning.  Best to wait until the 16th so you don't have to buy such a long piece.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 10, 2017, 07:54:13 AM

You're an idiot Tom, I don't think you even understand what the guy in the video was on about.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: juner on April 10, 2017, 12:23:22 PM

You're an idiot Tom, I don't think you even understand what the guy in the video was on about.

Please refrain from personal attacks in the upper fora. Warned.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: andruszkow on April 10, 2017, 12:42:56 PM


What nonsense. The celestial bodies are not painted on a curved sphere of glass surrounding the earth.

Who said that? You make up stuff as you go, or refuse to actually try and understand what's being said in our replies, and they are really straight forward answers, Tom.

Just get a string and try for yourself, damnit!
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rama Set on April 10, 2017, 02:07:31 PM
1. Tom asks that people perform the experiment.

2. People perform the experiment and confirm that all is working as it should be.

3. Tom, without checking for himself, denies that this is possible based on his common sense.

Good talk.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 10, 2017, 02:53:18 PM
I am going to take one more stab at this by first presenting the problem as it appears from a flat earth perspective. Please excuse my poor graphics skills, and also I have yet to figure out how to post images inside the message, so both images will appear at the bottom of this message. Click on the thumbnails to make the images larger.

The first image shows the dilemma from a flat earth perspective. The star is the person standing on earth. The moon is overhead and lit from the side. And the two circles on the right side of the rectangle represent the two apparent positions of the sun. The upper circle is where the light striking the moon suggests that the sun would be located. The lower circle roughly suggests where the person on earth sees the sun in the sky. The dilemma is that since there is only one sun, either the moon's illuminated surface is apparently incorrect, or the person on earth's perspective of where the sun is, is incorrect. The flat earth theory thus requires an explanation for this dilemma that involves something like the light being bent by the atmosphere, or perspective changing the location of the sun for the person on earth, but not for the moon's illumination since the sun is supposedly actually located at the upper position in the diagram.

In order for light bending refraction or perspective to make the sun appear lower than it actually is supposed to be in the flat earth model, these effects must be very extreme as there is a large difference between the sun's location as suggested by the illumination of the moon and as suggested by what the person on earth is seeing. If you draw a line between the person on earth and the upper location of the sun and calculate the degrees of the resulting angle, then the sun is appearing several degrees lower in the sky than where it supposedly actually is.

In the round earth model, the situation is suggested to be more like the lower drawing which is not drawn to scale, but will have to do given the limits on image size where you can still see the separate lines of the rectangle. If it was drawn to scale the upper and lower sides of the rectangle would be 400 times as long as the right and left sides. And in order for the sun which is now 400 times as far away from the observer on earth to appear the same size in the sky, it would need to larger as well as depicted in the second diagram. But once you elongate the rectangle connecting the four points in the diagram (observer, moon, upper position and lower positions of the sun), then the observed differences between the sun in the lower position and the sun in the upper position are very slight, probably an angle of much less than one degree from the observer on earth's perspective. The difference in the angle between a line connecting the moon and the sun in the upper position and a line connecting the moon and the sun in the lower position is also much less than one degree. So the difference in how the moon is illuminated would also be so slight as to be imperceptible by the naked eye.

Now obviously, there is only one sun, but the observations are almost identical whether you place the sun in the upper corner or in the lower corner of the rectangle that is 400 times longer than the rectangle in the first diagram, so the video would appear just as it was recorded when using this round earth model, but whether the sun is in the upper corner or the lower corner would be a moot point as the moon would be illuminated from fundamentally the same direction and so the moon would look fundamentally the same to the observer on earth, and the sun would appear in the same position in the sky within a fraction of one degree. And yes, for this model to work, the sun would also be about 4 times larger than the size of the right side of the now 400 times longer rectangle, but because it is so far away, the sun would still appear the same size as the moon. But putting the center point of the much larger sun at either the lower corner or the upper corner of the rectangle would not change the appearance of its location in the sky enough for the naked eye to be able to discriminate that ever so slight change in the angle from horizontal to a tiny fraction of a degree higher than horizontal.

If you step back for a moment, this is the fundamental issue with all depictions of the sun's location in the flat earth model. How is it possible for a sun up in the sky above the earth to appear as if it has set below the surface of the earth? Again, with a flat earth model, you need to have some dramatic light bending or actually impossible perspective effects to make the sun not only appear below the "horizon", but you also need for those effects to be so extreme that during the darkest periods of night all of the light from the sun is refracted away leaving us in the dark. Or the perspective of the sun's movement away must somehow also prevent all light from the sun which is still above the earth from reaching someone on the surface of the earth. It is impossible for perspective to swallow up all of the light, no matter how small the sun would end up appearing, especially at the scale of distance proposed in the flat earth model. The north star is supposedly much further away and yet it does not disappear due to perspective in the flat earth model.

The same dilemma occurs when the sun appears below the clouds as discussed on this thread: http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6074.new;topicseen#new
In the flat earth model, the light from the sun which is much higher up in the sky than the clouds has to be bent so that it strikes the clouds from underneath, or so that the shadow cast by Mount Rainier travels upward instead of downward.

The round earth solution to all of these dilemmas is simply explained in the lower diagram as the sun's rays do not need to bend to display the observed effects.

Here are the diagrams. Click on the images to see them enlarged, and note that the lower image appears as a simple line until you enlarge it, so you have to click right on the line itself.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 10, 2017, 02:53:40 PM
Buy some string, Tom.  Starting on the 12th sun will be visible in the western horizon in the morning.  Best to wait until the 16th so you don't have to buy such a long piece.

Why should I buy a string rather than a ruler? Are you trying to deceive us by using an instrument that can bend when forcefully held between two points?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 10, 2017, 02:57:11 PM


What nonsense. The celestial bodies are not painted on a curved sphere of glass surrounding the earth.

Who said that? You make up stuff as you go, or refuse to actually try and understand what's being said in our replies, and they are really straight forward answers, Tom.

Just get a string and try for yourself, damnit!

A string?  ???

Why would I use something can bend to demonstrate a straight line? The most appropriate tool would be something that is a straight line and does not bend. The person in the video in the OP clearly shows the straight line path does not lead to the sun. He makes it very clear.

The person in this link (http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2011/06/todd-lockwood-curvilinear-perspective.html?m=1) we were talking also admits that the straight line path does not lead to the sun. In his case the phase of the moon was pointing upwards and the sun was not even yet above the horizon.

Why don't you just boot up a 3D modeling program and put an arrow pointing at a ball and show us that there can be a position where the arrow is not pointing at the ball. What is so challenging about that?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 10, 2017, 03:02:04 PM
Buy some string, Tom.  Starting on the 12th sun will be visible in the western horizon in the morning.  Best to wait until the 16th so you don't have to buy such a long piece.

Why should I buy a string rather than a ruler? Are you trying to deceive us by using an instrument that can bend when forcefully held between two points?

No problem, just use a long enough stick then. Obviously, the string that people is using is not longer than their reach, so a 6 foot long wooden dowel would work fine.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 10, 2017, 03:13:12 PM
Can you guys please attempt an explanation for why a 3D modeling program cannot replicate this effect? Every time I bring it up we get embarrassing silence. We just need an arrow (moon) pointing at a ball (sun), and there should be some position of the objects or camera we can look where the arrow is not pointing at the ball.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 10, 2017, 03:30:35 PM
Can you guys please attempt an explanation for why a 3D modeling program cannot replicate this effect? Every time I bring it up we get embarrassing silence. We just need an arrow (moon) pointing at a ball (sun), and there should be some position of the objects or camera we can look where the arrow is not pointing at the ball.

Have you tried it on a 3d modeling program using both flat earth proposed distances and round earth proposed distances? What results did you get?

You keep asking for an explanation without first showing us the proof that a 3d modeling program cannot replicate the effect.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 10, 2017, 04:01:06 PM
Tom, I should assume you have access to a straight hallway.  Stand in the middle and look toward one end.  Note the direction the upper corner that runs the length of the hallway appears to point and turn your head toward the other end while following that line (remember, this line is physically straight).  From the starting point, does it appear to point directly to the other end up the hallway?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on April 10, 2017, 06:59:52 PM
Tom, the sun doesn't look lower.  The angle between them just appear to not converge.  Tom, did you try the string like the rest of us?

What are you talking about? Does a plane not look lower when it is over head than when it is off in the distance?

That's a perspective effect. You are claiming that the 93 million mile distant sun is lowered due to a perspective effect. The hallway example, the ceiling example, those are perspective effects, something you are attributing this event to.
Here are some pictures of my living room.  When I look left (first picture) the ceiling line appears to point up upwards.  When I look right (second picture) the ceiling line appears to point upwards.   In reality neither points upward.  If the moon phase was in the left corner and at a right angle to the to the intersection line it would appear to point upwards from my perspective. In reality it would point directly to the opposite corner.

Then why do some people think the Sun and Moon are immune to this perspective effect?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rama Set on April 10, 2017, 07:01:39 PM
They don't.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 10, 2017, 07:14:47 PM
Then why do some people think the Sun and Moon are immune to this perspective effect?
A good question.  Perhaps one of them could explain why.

They don't.
Tom Bishop seems to think so.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 10, 2017, 11:41:38 PM
*if* i used a computer program to draw the scene, i *think* it would look like x and not y.  how do you explain this?!?!?!

something something tatooine.

for one thing, you're wrong.  you're gonna have to render your 3d scene as a 2d image.  when you do that, your straight lines will look curved.

for another thing, it's irrelevant.  no one disagrees that the path light takes from the sun to the moon is a straight line.  this straight line path merely appears curved.  it's the same as how the path of an airplane appears curved from the ground even though it is a straight line.  imagine a beam of light traveling that same path.  it's a straight line path, but it looks curved.  it's also the same as how the line that connects two corners of your room is a straight line, but it appears curved.

i do genuinely love how demanding you are that someone make a computer model for you given your indigence to picking up a piece of twine and holding it in front of your face.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 11, 2017, 12:20:13 AM
You keep asking for an explanation without first showing us the proof that a 3d modeling program cannot replicate the effect.

I opened a 3D modeling program and placed a cone pointing at a sphere. No matter where I placed them, no matter how far apart I put them, and no matter where I oriented the camera, I couldn't get the cone to NOT make a straight line path to the sphere. Please help!

(http://i.imgur.com/OkdSZ6A.png)

(http://i.imgur.com/B9yLVmq.png)
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 11, 2017, 12:24:39 AM
what software?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 11, 2017, 12:27:34 AM
Can you represent the sun, moon and earth at something like these proportions (this image looks like a line but if you click on it you will see it forms a rectangle:
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 11, 2017, 01:04:47 AM
I'm not sure what you were trying to represent there Tom. 

Place two objects above your work plane, a straight line between them, and your point of view level on the work plane looking up at the line and pan left to right.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 11, 2017, 01:20:27 AM
Also, what does the cone represent?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 11, 2017, 03:37:56 AM
Here you go, Tom.  I get tangled up on my words a bit but I did it because I love you.

See the second attempt below with maybe a better explanation.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Boots on April 11, 2017, 06:44:34 AM
tbh I didn't find that video very satisfying. It did a good job of illustrating what the illusion is, but didn't really explain how or why we could know it was an illusion.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 11, 2017, 07:34:04 AM
I'm no awesome video maker so you can critique all you like.  I just finished this one that maybe explains better.  My wife didn't get it so I thought I'd give it another go.  😁
My explanation could be wrong.  The model shows the illusion happening while everything is lined up.
https://youtu.be/HFW7zfUCr7A
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 11, 2017, 09:52:44 AM

Excellent!
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 11, 2017, 11:58:05 AM
It looks like the moon phase is pointing directly at the sun to me.

(http://i.imgur.com/7OOJYOA.png)

The next step you perform after this scene is to zoom in on the moon. The moon still looks the same as in the above image, except bigger since you have zoomed in. If we were to then pan to the sun we would be making a straight line path along the red line I have included.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 11, 2017, 12:19:33 PM
It appears that when the author zooms in he is not merely enlarging the image, but is actually changing the Field of View in his settings. This is deceptive, as this is applying a fisheye effect.

If we were to apply a simple zoom enlargement in on the moon in my image and then pan to the sun, it would make a simple straight line path to the sun.

The only way to make this work in favor of the Round Earth Theory is by changing the FOV, which applies a wide angle fisheye lens effect to the scene. Again, we are left with the ridiculous claim that when we look out at the universe we are inexplicably looking through a fisheye lens and all straight lines are curved.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 11, 2017, 01:09:34 PM
Tom, when you zoom in or out in the perspective view you are changing the FOV.  It's nothing deceptive.  It puts your eye between and below the sun and moon.  It's how you move your point of view forward or backwards within the perspective view window.

Tom, your piece of software will do the same thing if you can place a light source at your cone. 

Putting a line in there will give you a spacial orientation and the brain will understand things for what they are.  This is why we have encouraged you to use a stick or string on the real moon.

BTW, none of this really is revealing the shape of the earth. The exact same effect would be seen on a flat earth with a closer sun.  It's not a proof for either.

That fisheye effect is curlinear perspective.  It's why both corners of your living room ceiling appear to rise up when you look at them individually.  You can only interpreted them as straight when stand back and see both simultaneously. 
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 11, 2017, 01:41:52 PM
what software?  what field of view?  what projection model?

tom, you can't just tell a computer "hey draw what things really look like."  you have to make a choices about how to display your 3d objects in a 2d image.  how do you know that the choices your program made are the ones that reproduce the way things look?  are you really suggesting that a computer model is a better investigation of the world than direct sense experience?

for example, it looks to me like you're using some cad software.  you're aware that that's probably an isometric perspective, yeah?  and that isometric views are a distortion of the way we actually see things?  amend my remark from my prior post: "you're gonna have to render your 3d scene as a 2d image.  if you want your image to represent the way things appear, then your straight lines will appear curved.  if you want to keep your straight lines straight, then you can't display the object the way it actually appears."

http://deseng.ryerson.ca/dokuwiki/_media/mec222:asc2.pdf
Quote
The isometric projection has a standard orientation that makes it the typical projection  used  in  CAD.  In  an isometric  projection,  the  width  and  depth  dimensions  are sketched at 30° above horizontal as shown in Figure 2.2. This results in the three angles at the upper front corner of the cube being equal to 120°. The three sides of the cube are  also  equal,  leading  to  the  term  iso  (equal)  -metric  (measure).  Isometric  drawings work quite well for objects of limited depth. However, an isometric drawing distorts the object when the depth is significant. In this case, a pictorial perspective drawing is better.
...
A pictorial perspective, or simply perspective, projection is drawn so that parallel lines converge in the distance as shown in Figure 2.2, unlike isometric or trimetric projections where parallel lines remain parallel. A perspective projection is quite useful in providing a realistic image of an object when the object spans a long distance, such as the view of a bridge or aircraft from one end. Generally, small manufactured objects are adequately represented by isometric or trimetric views.

and why are we even talking about this?  who cares what you can draw with a computer?  a computer used isometric perspective to draw this staircase.  are you saying this staircase must exist?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/34/Impossible_staircase.svg)
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 11, 2017, 06:16:59 PM
Tom, when you zoom in or out in the perspective view you are changing the FOV.  It's nothing deceptive.  It puts your eye between and below the sun and moon.  It's how you move your point of view forward or backwards within the perspective view window.

Tom, your piece of software will do the same thing if you can place a light source at your cone. 

Putting a line in there will give you a spacial orientation and the brain will understand things for what they are.  This is why we have encouraged you to use a stick or string on the real moon.

BTW, none of this really is revealing the shape of the earth. The exact same effect would be seen on a flat earth with a closer sun.  It's not a proof for either.

That fisheye effect is curlinear perspective.  It's why both corners of your living room ceiling appear to rise up when you look at them individually.  You can only interpreted them as straight when stand back and see both simultaneously.

By increasing the wide angle FOV of a scene you are saying that straight lines above our line of sight are convex, and straight lines below our line of sight are concave. This is not reality. We are not looking through a fisheye lens when we look at two simple bodies in the universe. Straight lines do not curve around our vision depending on how we look at them.

Your simulation of a "celestial sphere" by giving the scene a fish-eye effect is entirely without merit.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 12, 2017, 01:11:43 AM
By increasing the wide angle FOV of a scene you are saying that straight lines above our line of sight are convex, and straight lines below our line of sight are concave. This is not reality. We are not looking through a fisheye lens when we look at two simple bodies in the universe. Straight lines do not curve around our vision depending on how we look at them.

Your simulation of a "celestial sphere" by giving the scene a fish-eye effect is entirely without merit.
You do realize that a "fisheye" FOV is the same thing as looking one way and then turning your head and looking in a different direction, correct?

Did you gain access to a hallway yet?  When you see this same effect in that hallway, are you going to claim it isn't real?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 12, 2017, 02:30:49 AM
You do realize that a "fisheye" FOV is the same thing as looking one way and then turning your head and looking in a different direction, correct?

By widening the field of view the author provided a fisheye effect like so:

(https://hitfilm.com/reference/hitfilm-4-pro/gopro%20original.zoom25.png)

That means lines around the line of sight are constantly warping around whatever you are looking. Alternatively, it may be a reverse fisheye FOV -- the author doesn't really say. None of this should be necessary to demonstrate the "celestial sphere". The effect of the "celestial sphere" needs to manifest from a natural consequence of geometry.

Quote
Did you gain access to a hallway yet?  When you see this same effect in that hallway, are you going to claim it isn't real?

What are you talking about? If you tape an arrow on a hallway ceiling, it points a straight line path to the end of the hallway. The lines aren't curved to produce an unnatural geometric result, as is with the "celestial sphere".
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 12, 2017, 03:26:10 AM
You do realize that a "fisheye" FOV is the same thing as looking one way and then turning your head and looking in a different direction, correct?

By widening the field of view the author provided a fisheye effect like so:

(https://hitfilm.com/reference/hitfilm-4-pro/gopro%20original.zoom25.png)

That means lines around the line of sight are constantly warping around whatever you are looking. Alternatively, it may be a reverse fisheye FOV -- the author doesn't really say. None of this should be necessary to demonstrate the "celestial sphere". The effect of the "celestial sphere" needs to manifest from a natural consequence of geometry.
Stand just below a straight left-right line that is in front of you.  You might figure it out.

Quote
Quote
Did you gain access to a hallway yet?  When you see this same effect in that hallway, are you going to claim it isn't real?

What are you talking about? If you tape an arrow on a hallway ceiling, it points a straight line path to the end of the hallway. The lines aren't curved to produce an unnatural geometric result, as is with the "celestial sphere".
Tape an arrow on the wall at one end just below the ceiling, pointing it at a spot of equal height at the other end.  Standing a few feet from the wall, look at the arrow, and then look at where it's pointed.  The path along which the arrow is pointing will appear quite similar to the uppermost uninterrupted left/right line in the image you just posted.  Apply what you see to the moon and sun situation that is causing you so much confusion.   

Glad I could clear that up for you.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 12, 2017, 04:43:49 AM
In your hallway example, the arrow always points in a straight line to its destination. It's not pointing in a curved line, as is necessary for the video in the OP to make any sense.

In the Muddy Colors blog link (http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2011/06/todd-lockwood-curvilinear-perspective.html) the observation this blogger makes in the sky is as so:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cGwYXShUfrA/TeZ_DEN-0sI/AAAAAAAAAmA/Fu62wFQYbMo/s1600/securedownload-2.jpeg)

The moon's phase is angled upwards, but the sun is not yet above the horizon. There is no straight line path to the sun. The only way it will work is if the line is curved.

In your hallway example, there is no curving. If you place the arrow pointing down or up the hallway it will always make a straight line path to its destination.

Flatout cannot simulate such a scene of the moon pointing above the sun in a standard geometric 3D model, and so he must change the FOV of the scene to create a fisheye lens effect.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 12, 2017, 05:29:14 AM
Nothing is bent, Tom.  There is no fisheye effect turned on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSPH4BkMfoY
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Boots on April 12, 2017, 06:52:13 AM
I'm no awesome video maker so you can critique all you like.  I just finished this one that maybe explains better.  My wife didn't get it so I thought I'd give it another go.  😁
My explanation could be wrong.  The model shows the illusion happening while everything is lined up.
https://youtu.be/HFW7zfUCr7A

That was great! I didn't mean to sound critical of your last video. It was helpful. This second one is even better though since it has more of an explanation.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 12, 2017, 09:24:36 AM

I just get this image of tom not daring to look at the sky when he goes out just in case the moon is there, refusing to look at the corners of his rooms and sitting in front of Flatouts video with his eyes closed and the sound off muttering prayers to Rowbotham.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 12, 2017, 12:23:53 PM
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cGwYXShUfrA/TeZ_DEN-0sI/AAAAAAAAAmA/Fu62wFQYbMo/s1600/securedownload-2.jpeg)

that image represents a 180 deg field of view, dummy

ironically, had you kept reading from that point, then you may have actually learned something:
Quote
Our view of the universe is, in a real sense, like a fish-eye photo. Your field of view is a sphere, not a flat plane. But we fail to notice, in part because of our inability to see it all at once, and in part due to the psychology of perception derived from the fact that our visual organs and the cortex that interprets their data focus on the center ... but also because we have been taught a formal way of interpreting the universe that insists on straight lines.

We tend to draw what we perceive in the center most area of our retina; our peripheral vision is an addendum. We rarely consider what's going on outside our center of focus unless it looks like it might eat us.

If you really concentrate on what's in your periphery without turning your head, you can see this curvature in the room you're in now, in the lines where wall meets ceiling and floor, and any piece of furniture parallel with them. Or stand in a narrow room like your powder room, two feet from the narrowest wall; look down and see the left and right margins of the wall receding toward a vanishing point below the floor. Now look up and see the same two parallel margins converging toward the opposite vanishing point above the ceiling. Those lines are ultimately curved, because they have to meet at one of two vanishing points on either side of you.

or whatever keep insisting that drawings are a better investigation of reality than your senses.  very zetetic.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 13, 2017, 01:49:53 AM
In your hallway example, the arrow always points in a straight line to its destination. It's not pointing in a curved line
Correct.

Quote
, as is necessary for the video in the OP to make any sense.
Wrong.

Quote
In the Muddy Colors blog link (http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2011/06/todd-lockwood-curvilinear-perspective.html) the observation this blogger makes in the sky is as so:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cGwYXShUfrA/TeZ_DEN-0sI/AAAAAAAAAmA/Fu62wFQYbMo/s1600/securedownload-2.jpeg)
Accompanied with the following text you ignored:

"Stretch this image out left to right until it encompasses about 180° and you'll get the picture. You would have to turn your head to look from impending sunrise to setting moon:"

This is rather dishonest of you Tom. 

Quote
The moon's phase is angled upwards, but the sun is not yet above the horizon. There is no straight line path to the sun.
Wrong.  The moon's day-night terminator is perpendicular to a 'straight line' to the sun.  Just like the arrow in the hallway pointing in a straight line to the other end.

Quote
The only way it will work is if the line is curved.
Wrong.

Quote
In your hallway example, there is no curving. If you place the arrow pointing down or up the hallway it will always make a straight line path to its destination.
Correct, But the same effect of the arrow 'appearing' to point higher is what is seen with the moon.

Quote
Flatout cannot simulate such a scene of the moon pointing above the sun in a standard geometric 3D model,
Actually he did.

Quote
and so he must change the FOV of the scene to create a fisheye lens effect.
This, coming from someone who took a narrowed representation of a wide-angle scene (even labeled as such by the creator), and tried to pass it off as a narrow field of view scene.  Again with the dishonesty Tom.  Disappointing.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 14, 2017, 04:00:35 AM
Nothing is bent, Tom.  There is no fisheye effect turned on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSPH4BkMfoY

There is clearly something screwy with the FOV. When you pan to the left and right it looks like the moon and sun are warping around an inverted sphere.

Why is it that in your original video that you had to "zoom in" after this scene (http://i.imgur.com/7OOJYOA.png) to get the desired effect rather than simply place your camera closer to the moon? Simply placing your camera next to the moon would be the simplest thing to do, and would more accurately represent the earth-sun-moon system.

Whatever you did there with the FOV is clearly unnatural. In the beforehand scene we clearly see that the moon is pointing at the sun, which I illustrated with a red line. If you take a magnifying glass to the moon in my image (http://i.imgur.com/7OOJYOA.png) and follow the path to the sun it clearly makes a straight line.

We don't have zoom-in pincushion eyesight, or whatever inexplicable thing you did there to achieve your effect, so why are you trying to pass it off as reality?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 14, 2017, 04:48:49 AM
When you pan to the left and right it looks like the moon and sun are warping around an inverted sphere.

exactly.

so i'll try this one again: why are planetariums shaped like domes?  why do they project their images onto a spherical surface?  why not choose a cube or a pyramid?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 14, 2017, 05:19:49 AM
Nothing is bent, Tom.  There is no fisheye effect turned on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSPH4BkMfoY

There is clearly something screwy with the FOV. When you pan to the left and right it looks like the moon and sun are warping around an inverted sphere.

Why is it that in your original video that you had to "zoom in" after this scene (http://i.imgur.com/7OOJYOA.png) to get the desired effect rather than simply place your camera closer to the moon? Simply placing your camera next to the moon would be the simplest thing to do, and would more accurately represent the earth-sun-moon system.

Whatever you did there with the FOV is clearly unnatural. In the beforehand scene we clearly see that the moon is pointing at the sun, which I illustrated with a red line. If you take a magnifying glass to the moon in my image (http://i.imgur.com/7OOJYOA.png) and follow the path to the sun it clearly makes a straight line.

We don't have zoom-in pincushion eyesight, or whatever inexplicable thing you did there to achieve your effect, so why are you trying to pass it off as reality?
Tom, zooming in Rhinoceros perspective view  is the same a positioning the camera closer.  I use the software professionally.  I've designed countless airplane parts for composite fabrication with it.  You don't know what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 14, 2017, 05:55:23 AM
Nothing is bent, Tom.  There is no fisheye effect turned on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSPH4BkMfoY

There is clearly something screwy with the FOV. When you pan to the left and right it looks like the moon and sun are warping around an inverted sphere.

Why is it that in your original video that you had to "zoom in" after this scene (http://i.imgur.com/7OOJYOA.png) to get the desired effect rather than simply place your camera closer to the moon? Simply placing your camera next to the moon would be the simplest thing to do, and would more accurately represent the earth-sun-moon system.

Whatever you did there with the FOV is clearly unnatural. In the beforehand scene we clearly see that the moon is pointing at the sun, which I illustrated with a red line. If you take a magnifying glass to the moon in my image (http://i.imgur.com/7OOJYOA.png) and follow the path to the sun it clearly makes a straight line.

We don't have zoom-in pincushion eyesight, or whatever inexplicable thing you did there to achieve your effect, so why are you trying to pass it off as reality?
Tom, zooming in Rhinoceros perspective view  is the same a positioning the camera closer.  I use the software professionally.  I've designed countless airplane parts for composite fabrication with it.  You don't know what you are talking about.

What would happen in the view you created if my red line were there connecting the sun to the moon? It would bend!

You clearly are trying to hand wave whatever effect you applied, or was inadvertently applied on a preset filter, away. In your original video you even bring up the words "wide angle" and "Field of View" when you "zoom in".

The person in the video in the OP did not need to zoom into the moon and change his "wide angle" view of the moon to see that it was not lined up with the sun. Shame on you.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 14, 2017, 06:11:15 AM
When you pan to the left and right it looks like the moon and sun are warping around an inverted sphere.

exactly.


No, not exactly. When the man in the OP of this thread is pointing camera around at the moon and sun it does not look like they are curving on the inside of a sphere when he moves and pans his camera around to look at them. There is obviously some kind of camera effect here which is not reality.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 14, 2017, 01:31:48 PM
When you pan to the left and right it looks like the moon and sun are warping around an inverted sphere.

exactly.


No, not exactly. When the man in the OP of this thread is pointing camera around at the moon and sun it does not look like they are curving on the inside of a sphere when he moves and pans his camera around to look at them. There is obviously some kind of camera effect here which is not reality.

that's literally exactly how reality appears to us.

why do planetariums choose a spherical shape? why not project their images onto the inside of a cube or pyramid?

or, put another way: why is field of view measured in degrees? why do we use angles to describe that quantity?

Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 14, 2017, 06:14:26 PM
that's literally exactly how reality appears to us.

why do planetariums choose a spherical shape? why not project their images onto the inside of a cube or pyramid?

or, put another way: why is field of view measured in degrees? why do we use angles to describe that quantity?

If this celestial sphere existed, the moon should curve against the inside of a sphere as it traveled across the sky, not when it is static and a camera is panning across it. The fact that the moon and sun seem to curve against an inverted sphere when the camera pans across it shows that there is something more going on in that video.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: TheTruthIsOnHere on April 14, 2017, 06:29:23 PM
It doesn't matter how reality appears. Either the light from the Sun travels a straight line to the moon or it doesn't.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rama Set on April 14, 2017, 07:27:55 PM
It doesn't matter how reality appears. Either the light from the Sun travels a straight line to the moon or it doesn't.

And it does. So... /thread?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 15, 2017, 05:34:14 AM
Quote
In the Muddy Colors blog link (http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2011/06/todd-lockwood-curvilinear-perspective.html) the observation this blogger makes in the sky is as so:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cGwYXShUfrA/TeZ_DEN-0sI/AAAAAAAAAmA/Fu62wFQYbMo/s1600/securedownload-2.jpeg)

Accompanied with the following text you ignored:

"Stretch this image out left to right until it encompasses about 180° and you'll get the picture. You would have to turn your head to look from impending sunrise to setting moon:"

This is rather dishonest of you Tom.

Do you know how a panorama works? It's NOT a celestial sphere.

why do planetariums choose a spherical shape? why not project their images onto the inside of a cube or pyramid?

or, put another way: why is field of view measured in degrees? why do we use angles to describe that quantity?

A planetarium is just a movie theater. They don't project the movies inside cubes because the corners are ugly.

Field of view is measured in degrees because if you look behind you, you need to turn your body 180 degrees. That does not mean that the celestial bodies are painted on an invisible sphere of glass circling the earth.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 15, 2017, 01:29:16 PM
just went out and did the string experiment for the first time.  works beautifully.

you should go out and do it this morning, tom.  if you're in the pacific time zone, then you should have a good view of both the sun and moon for the next 3-4 hours or so.

A planetarium is just a movie theater. They don't project the movies inside cubes because the corners are ugly.

what do you mean by "the corners are ugly"?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 15, 2017, 03:42:46 PM
What would happen in the view you created if my red line were there connecting the sun to the moon? It would bend!

You clearly are trying to hand wave whatever effect you applied, or was inadvertently applied on a preset filter, away. In your original video you even bring up the words "wide angle" and "Field of View" when you "zoom in".

The person in the video in the OP did not need to zoom into the moon and change his "wide angle" view of the moon to see that it was not lined up with the sun. Shame on you.
I found the problem here Tom.  What you haven't figured out, is that the viewing distance to the moon is quite short compared to the distance from the moon to the sun.  We are viewing it from that "up close" viewpoint that is used in the 3d model video Flatout made.

Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 15, 2017, 03:47:54 PM
just went out and did the string experiment for the first time.  works beautifully.

you should go out and do it this morning, tom.  if you're in the pacific time zone, then you should have a good view of both the sun and moon for the next 3-4 hours or so.

A planetarium is just a movie theater. They don't project the movies inside cubes because the corners are ugly.

what do you mean by "the corners are ugly"?

Corners are so ugly that they do not even allow them in regular movie theaters......oh wait......I have never seen a regular movie theater with a dome for a screen. Never mind.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 15, 2017, 04:21:26 PM
What would happen in the view you created if my red line were there connecting the sun to the moon? It would bend!

You clearly are trying to hand wave whatever effect you applied, or was inadvertently applied on a preset filter, away. In your original video you even bring up the words "wide angle" and "Field of View" when you "zoom in".

The person in the video in the OP did not need to zoom into the moon and change his "wide angle" view of the moon to see that it was not lined up with the sun. Shame on you.
I found the problem here Tom.  What you haven't figured out, is that the viewing distance to the moon is quite short compared to the distance from the moon to the sun.  We are viewing it from that "up close" viewpoint that is used in the 3d model video Flatout made.

In Flatout's first video he clearly mentions changing the wide angle field of view when he zooms in. When did the man in the video in the op zoom in and change his wide angle view?

A more accurate action would be to simply take his camera near the moon and see if it lined up with the sun. Flatout does not do this, because he knows that doing so would be detrimental to his position.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 15, 2017, 04:23:07 PM
just went out and did the string experiment for the first time.  works beautifully.

you should go out and do it this morning, tom.  if you're in the pacific time zone, then you should have a good view of both the sun and moon for the next 3-4 hours or so.

A planetarium is just a movie theater. They don't project the movies inside cubes because the corners are ugly.

what do you mean by "the corners are ugly"?

Corners are so ugly that they do not even allow them in regular movie theaters......oh wait......I have never seen a regular movie theater with a dome for a screen. Never mind.

Regular movie theaters don't project their movies into corners. I don't know what point you are making.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 15, 2017, 04:35:58 PM
What would happen in the view you created if my red line were there connecting the sun to the moon? It would bend!

You clearly are trying to hand wave whatever effect you applied, or was inadvertently applied on a preset filter, away. In your original video you even bring up the words "wide angle" and "Field of View" when you "zoom in".

The person in the video in the OP did not need to zoom into the moon and change his "wide angle" view of the moon to see that it was not lined up with the sun. Shame on you.
I found the problem here Tom.  What you haven't figured out, is that the viewing distance to the moon is quite short compared to the distance from the moon to the sun.  We are viewing it from that "up close" viewpoint that is used in the 3d model video Flatout made.

In Flatout's first video he clearly mentions changing the wide angle field of view when he zooms in. When did the man in the video in the op zoom in and change his wide angle view?

A more accurate action would be to simply take his camera near the moon and see if it lined up with the sun. Flatout does not do this, because he knows that doing so would be detrimental to his position.
Tom, there is no such "wide angle setting".  In any perspective view you increase the field of view from the eyes perspective by getting closer to the objects so the head has to be turned.  I did exactly what you say I should have done.  I moved under and closer to the moon. The video clearly shows that things are lined up.  We all know that.  Nobody is saying they don't.  What we are talking about is how one perceives them to not line up.   My video shows how objects that are lined up can appear to not line up when we don't have reference for depth.   

Your accusation of deceit is duly noted.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 15, 2017, 04:58:02 PM
What would happen in the view you created if my red line were there connecting the sun to the moon? It would bend!

You clearly are trying to hand wave whatever effect you applied, or was inadvertently applied on a preset filter, away. In your original video you even bring up the words "wide angle" and "Field of View" when you "zoom in".

The person in the video in the OP did not need to zoom into the moon and change his "wide angle" view of the moon to see that it was not lined up with the sun. Shame on you.
I found the problem here Tom.  What you haven't figured out, is that the viewing distance to the moon is quite short compared to the distance from the moon to the sun.  We are viewing it from that "up close" viewpoint that is used in the 3d model video Flatout made.

In Flatout's first video he clearly mentions changing the wide angle field of view when he zooms in. When did the man in the video in the op zoom in and change his wide angle view?

A more accurate action would be to simply take his camera near the moon and see if it lined up with the sun. Flatout does not do this, because he knows that doing so would be detrimental to his position.
Tom, there is no such "wide angle setting".  In any perspective view you increase the field of view from the eyes perspective by getting closer to the objects so the head has to be turned.  I did exactly what you say I should have done.  I moved under and closer to the moon. The video clearly shows that things are lined up.  We all know that.  Nobody is saying they don't.  What we are talking about is how one perceives them to not line up.   My video shows how objects that are lined up can appear to not line up when we don't have reference for depth.   

Your accusation of deceit is duly noted.

Flatout,

The sun and moon clearly appear to be curving across the inside of a sphere when you pan your camera across them, as admitted by garygreen in this thread.

Where can we see this effect in reality? The real sun and moon do not look like they are curving across a sphere when we take a video camera and pan it across them in the sky. This is suggestive of a pincushion camera effect, not a "celestial sphere". As the celestial sphere is described, the sun and moon would curve as they travel in their course across the sky -- not when they are static and a camera pans across them.

Kindly refrain from using deceiving words in your response.

Thank you,
Tom
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 15, 2017, 05:12:48 PM
Where can we see this effect in reality?
Anywhere there is a straight line slightly above (or below for that matter) that you can walk up close to and look left or right along it's length. 
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 15, 2017, 05:25:15 PM
Where can we see this effect in reality?
Anywhere there is a straight line slightly above (or below for that matter) that you can walk up close to and look left or right along it's length.

What are you going on about? We are talking about the pincushion effect in the video. When we pan a camera across a static object above us it does not appear to curve across the inside of a sphere.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 15, 2017, 05:36:32 PM
What are you going on about?
Why the moon's phase does not 'appear' to line up with the sun even though the path of light is straight.  The original subject of this thread, remember?  As I said, this effect with straight lines can be seen with a variety of locations.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 15, 2017, 05:45:07 PM
Again, even if the sun and Moon are only 3000 miles above a flat earth the effect will still happen.  I looked at the moon and sun this morning.  They didn't appear to line up until I connected them with a taught string.  It's an illusion.  The brain is totally capable of not seeing things as they really are until your perspective of them changes.   The horizontal lines in the image below are actually parallel  but they do not appear to be.  The brain gets fooled.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 15, 2017, 07:12:17 PM
A more accurate action would be to simply take his camera near the moon and see if it lined up with the sun. Flatout does not do this, because he knows that doing so would be detrimental to his position.

the most accurate action would be use a string to make a straight line perpendicular to the moon's terminator and see if that line points at the sun.

you do not do this because you know that it would be detrimental to your position.  that's the only excuse i can think of for not trying such a simple experiment yourself.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 15, 2017, 07:16:42 PM
It is really interesting what the brain does to understand the world.  In reality there are all kinds of angles that it has to interpret.  It's uses a lot of depth cues to understand it.  Most optical illusions can trick the mind because they lack a field of depth.  When depth can be interpreted the brain makes sense of all the conflicting angles that are caused by perspective.  It was interesting to track my kids head and eyes as the looked from corner to corner in my living room.  Their eyes moved in an arc not a straight line.  My wife would slightly tip her head at each extent so her eyes would be parallel with the rising left and right corner lines.  The eyes and do the same thing when they look from one horizon to the moon to the sun to the other horizon.  They created a big arc as if they are looking at a sphere.  Perspective geometry demand this.  The reality is all those could be at the same level but the eye and head movements would be plotted as an arc.   
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Boots on April 15, 2017, 09:28:51 PM
Again, even if the sun and Moon are only 3000 miles above a flat earth the effect will still happen.  I looked at the moon and sun this morning.  They didn't appear to line up until I connected them with a taught string.  It's an illusion.  The brain is totally capable of not seeing things as they really are until your perspective of them changes.   The horizontal lines in the image below are actually parallel  but they do not appear to be.  The brain gets fooled.

Does this illusion business cause the world to appear globe shaped to us even though it is actually flat?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 15, 2017, 10:20:41 PM
Again, even if the sun and Moon are only 3000 miles above a flat earth the effect will still happen.  I looked at the moon and sun this morning.  They didn't appear to line up until I connected them with a taught string.  It's an illusion.  The brain is totally capable of not seeing things as they really are until your perspective of them changes.   The horizontal lines in the image below are actually parallel  but they do not appear to be.  The brain gets fooled.

Does this illusion business cause the world to appear globe shaped to us even though it is actually flat?
I don't think that one can always determine what really is by making a single observation with the eyes.  Many things require investigation.  The claim that the horizon rises to eye level is a great example.  In reality over long expanses of water it doesn't rise to eye level.  It does take some precise measurements to measure the drop because it's very subtle. 
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 17, 2017, 05:12:26 PM
So you admit you don’t see what we’re saying (10th dan in missing the point), you won’t do the simple experiment that Gary and others have offered as you don’t know when the moon will be in the daytime sky, well the “children’s” moon is often in the sky,
 •  Look within a week or so of the date of full moon.
•  Before full moon, look for the daytime moon in the afternoon.
•  After full moon, look for the daytime moon in the morning
(waxing gibbous tonight 6th April so you are on, although being near the equinox the discrepancy won't be profound).

A full moon with the sun in the sky isn't supposed to ever happen in the Round Earth model. You want me to perform an experiment that cannot happen?

Why do I need to perform some kind of experiment to confirm someone else's argument? If you are making a claim that a certain experiment will confirm your argument, YOU need to do the experiment.

Quote
In the meantime answer Nirmala and my earlier point, does your model explain the problem you see with the angles?

I would say that the effect is a confirmation of the long-postulated Flat Earth mechanism which places the sun lower than it actually is over a Flat Earth. There are several mechanisms which have been proposed over the years. Mechanisms have been proposed ranging from an atmospheric effect, to the Electromagnetic Accelerator which bend light rays, to a perspective effect, and further analysis and consideration would need to be conducted to say which effect this observation most strongly supports. The video in the OP shows that the sun actually does appear lower than where the moon thinks it is. If this mechanism did not exist, the sun would at all times be above the surface of the earth and night and day could not exist.

I was curious as to whether "an atmospheric effect" could make the sun appear lower than it actually is, so I did some research on light refraction including the fast paced videos on this site: http://byjus.com/physics/why-do-stars-twinkle/

It turns out that given the position of the sun above the atmosphere in both the flat earth model and the round earth model, refraction will always make the sun appear higher than its actual position (unless the sun is directly overhead in which case it will have no effect at all). When light travels from an optically less dense medium to an optically more dense medium it is bent towards the normal (defined as a line perpendicular to the line forming the boundary between the two mediums). This is a long established and experimentally proven principle of the behavior of light.

If you draw out the position of the sun, atmosphere and an observer on earth, this bending is always in the direction that makes the sun appear higher in the sky. This does explain why in the round earth model, the sun appears above the horizon even after it has actually set, as again any refraction caused by the sunlight hitting the atmosphere will always make the sun appear higher than its actual position. This also rules out refraction as an explanation for why the sun sets at all in the flat earth model because if refraction is involved, it would actually make it less likely for the sun to appear to have set in a flat earth model.

So, refraction cannot be reasonably used as an explanation for what is observed in the original video.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 17, 2017, 05:17:50 PM
So you admit you don’t see what we’re saying (10th dan in missing the point), you won’t do the simple experiment that Gary and others have offered as you don’t know when the moon will be in the daytime sky, well the “children’s” moon is often in the sky,
 •  Look within a week or so of the date of full moon.
•  Before full moon, look for the daytime moon in the afternoon.
•  After full moon, look for the daytime moon in the morning
(waxing gibbous tonight 6th April so you are on, although being near the equinox the discrepancy won't be profound).

A full moon with the sun in the sky isn't supposed to ever happen in the Round Earth model. You want me to perform an experiment that cannot happen?

Why do I need to perform some kind of experiment to confirm someone else's argument? If you are making a claim that a certain experiment will confirm your argument, YOU need to do the experiment.

Quote
In the meantime answer Nirmala and my earlier point, does your model explain the problem you see with the angles?

I would say that the effect is a confirmation of the long-postulated Flat Earth mechanism which places the sun lower than it actually is over a Flat Earth. There are several mechanisms which have been proposed over the years. Mechanisms have been proposed ranging from an atmospheric effect, to the Electromagnetic Accelerator which bend light rays, to a perspective effect, and further analysis and consideration would need to be conducted to say which effect this observation most strongly supports. The video in the OP shows that the sun actually does appear lower than where the moon thinks it is. If this mechanism did not exist, the sun would at all times be above the surface of the earth and night and day could not exist.

I was curious as to whether "an atmospheric effect" could make the sun appear lower than it actually is, so I did some research on light refraction including the fast paced videos on this site: http://byjus.com/physics/why-do-stars-twinkle/

It turns out that given the position of the sun above the atmosphere in both the flat earth model and the round earth model, refraction will always make the sun appear higher than its actual position (unless the sun is directly overhead in which case it will have no effect at all). When light travels from an optically less dense medium to an optically more dense medium it is bent towards the normal (defined as a line perpendicular to the line forming the boundary between the two mediums). This is a long established and experimentally proven principle of the behavior of light.

If you draw out the position of the sun, atmosphere and an observer on earth, this bending is always in the direction that makes the sun appear higher in the sky. This does explain why in the round earth model, the sun appears above the horizon even after it has actually set, as again any refraction caused by the sunlight hitting the atmosphere will always make the sun appear higher than its actual position. This also rules out refraction as an explanation for why the sun sets at all in the flat earth model because if refraction is involved, it would actually make it less likely for the sun to appear to have set in a flat earth model.

So, refraction cannot be reasonably used as an explanation for what is observed in the original video.

You are assuming that there are no thicker mediums between us and the celestial bodies.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 17, 2017, 05:26:26 PM

You are assuming that there are no thicker mediums between us and the celestial bodies.

Any evidence you can offer that there are? Each model of airplane is limited as to how high it can fly because the atmosphere gets thinner with higher altitude. What evidence do you have for a more optically dense medium above the atmosphere? Or are you arguing from your theory to suggest that something is or at least could be out there? That does not sound very Zetetic to me.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 17, 2017, 07:19:04 PM
we don't need refraction to explain this 'illusion.'  a straight line perpendicular to the moon's terminator does intersect the sun.  the op and the video author are simply mistaken that it does not.  there's not really anything that needs to be explained.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 17, 2017, 08:10:17 PM
we don't need refraction to explain this 'illusion.'  a straight line perpendicular to the moon's terminator does intersect the sun.  the op and the video author are simply mistaken that it does not.  there's not really anything that needs to be explained.

You are of course correct, but the "refraction" explanation is also used improperly by flat-earthers to explain other observations also (including how it is possible for the sun to rise and set on a flat earth), so I thought it useful to discount it here in regards to this discussion.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 18, 2017, 12:07:19 AM

You are assuming that there are no thicker mediums between us and the celestial bodies.

Any evidence you can offer that there are? Each model of airplane is limited as to how high it can fly because the atmosphere gets thinner with higher altitude. What evidence do you have for a more optically dense medium above the atmosphere? Or are you arguing from your theory to suggest that something is or at least could be out there? That does not sound very Zetetic to me.

The principles of Zeteticism are to consider all possibilities when formulating a test or conclusion. By not accepting other possibilities your conclusion is to a fault.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 18, 2017, 12:23:28 AM

You are assuming that there are no thicker mediums between us and the celestial bodies.

Any evidence you can offer that there are? Each model of airplane is limited as to how high it can fly because the atmosphere gets thinner with higher altitude. What evidence do you have for a more optically dense medium above the atmosphere? Or are you arguing from your theory to suggest that something is or at least could be out there? That does not sound very Zetetic to me.

The principles of Zeteticism are to consider all possibilities when formulating a test or conclusion. By not accepting other possibilities your conclusion is to a fault.

I am on this forum because I was willing to consider other possibilities, but I have yet to be presented with evidence or reasoning that is enough to shift my conclusion. Does accepting other possibilities include accepting possibilities with no evidence or rationale? Am I supposed to remain open to the idea that the earth is riding on the back of a giant turtle when formulating a test or conclusion?

Do you have any evidence for an optically denser medium (not the same thing as something that is denser in terms of mass) that is between the atmosphere and the sun? Do you have any rationale that acts as the basis for considering the possibility of such a medium?

In many cases, if there was such a medium it would have no effect on the perceived position of the sun as the light is bent again when leaving a more optically dense medium, but in the opposite direction. This is why objects viewed through a window glass appear to be pretty much where they actually are located.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 18, 2017, 09:41:14 AM

The principles of Zeteticism are to consider all possibilities when formulating a test or conclusion. By not accepting other possibilities your conclusion is to a fault.

Apart from you actually trying out the string experiment it would seem, where your pathological dodging of the issue has become a running joke.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 18, 2017, 01:37:25 PM

The principles of Zeteticism are to consider all possibilities when formulating a test or conclusion. By not accepting other possibilities your conclusion is to a fault.

Apart from you actually trying out the string experiment it would seem, where your pathological dodging of the issue has become a running joke.

Again, why should I use a string that can bend when the ends are forced between two points rather than a ruler or board that cannot bend? Another attempt at deception?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 18, 2017, 01:51:46 PM


By all means Tom take whatever you feel necessary, string (dog lead in my case) has its advantages as it’s easy to carry and if you stretch at arm’s length it is very easy to keep straight, but if you doubt your ability to keep a piece of string taut then take a couple of metres of straight material of your choice and do it, I’m sure you will present your meticulous experimentation to us shortly.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rama Set on April 18, 2017, 01:57:59 PM
Tom Bishop: You guys should really do the experiment, it is your burden to prove.
RE Collective: No problem.

(A short time later)

RE Collective: Ok, so we did it, and it looks like the OP was incorrect.
Tom Bishop: But, but, but, you guys are wrong.
RE Collective: Don't take our word, do it yourself.
Tom Bishop: You guys are obviously trying to trick me.

Really great thread.  10/10 from Tom Bishop.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 18, 2017, 02:40:31 PM
Again, why should I use a string that can bend when the ends are forced between two points rather than a ruler or board that cannot bend? Another attempt at deception?

you're supposed to hold the string taut, tom.  a taut string is a straight line.  if you somehow have never done this before, it's super easy: just pull the two ends of the string away from one another with your fingers.  you'll notice that it makes a straight line.

as jura points out, though, you can use a yardstick if you like.  any straight line will work.

i went out and did it again this morning.  worked perfectly.  the string was taut, perpendicular to the moon's terminator, and pointed right at the sun.  you should have a good view of both the sun and moon in the morning for at least the rest of the week.  there's no excuse not to try it yourself.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 18, 2017, 02:53:53 PM
I just did the string experiment for the first time. It worked flawlessly. And I had no problem keeping the string straight. I am not sure what kind of string Tom Bishop uses that he is so concerned about it bending under tension, but it is not any kind of string I have ever encountered. But, as has been mentioned several times now in this thread, a straight measuring stick or dowel will work fine.

I love it when an optical illusion is undone. It loosens up my perceptions in a very interesting way. Be sure to watch this one to the end:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4QcyW-qTUg

This one is also really fun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuB81P7i1n4
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 18, 2017, 03:28:34 PM
You do realize that in order for this to be a perspective effect the sun would need to change its distance to you significantly throughout the day. The 93,000,000 mile sun in the Round Earth model does not change distance to you appreciably throughout the day, and so a comparisons in this thread to one end of the hallway seeming lower than the ceiling above you is inappropriate.

The T-Rex illusion, for example, would not happen if that T-Rex were 93,000,000 miles away in that scene -- you would need to travel for millions of miles around the T-Rex to recreate it (assuming you could see it).

The sun is so far away from you in the Round Earth model that there aren't really any "perspective effects" that it could apply to it. The excuse of a perspective effect for this phenomena under RET is an absurdity, and is in no possible way a mechanism for this "celestial sphere".
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 18, 2017, 03:30:40 PM
You do realize that in order for this to be a perspective effect the sun would need to change its distance to you significantly throughout the day. The 93,000,000 mile sun in the Round Earth model does not change distance to you appreciably throughout the day, and so a comparisons in this thread to one end of the hallway seeming lower than the ceiling above you is inappropriate.

The T-Rex illusion, for example, would not happen if that T-Rex were 93,000,000 miles away in that scene -- you would need to travel for millions of miles around the T-Rex to recreate it (assuming you could see it).

The sun is so far away from you in the Round Earth model that there aren't really any "perspective effects" that it could apply to it, and the excuse of a perspective effect for this phenomena under RET is nonsense.

The effect of the T-Rex illusion works just as well if you are stationary and the T-Rex is rotated in position. So it would work at any distance as long as you could still distinguish the features of the T-Rex, say through a telescope.

And in the case of the sun, it is the earth that is rotating in order to change the apparent position in the sky of the relatively stationary sun. So no, the sun would not need to change its distance from the earth to create the perspective effects referred to in this thread.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 18, 2017, 04:37:23 PM
The effect of the T-Rex works just as well if you are stationary and the T-Rex is rotated in position. So it would work at any distance as long as you could still distinguish the features of the T-Rex, say through a telescope.

That is not recreating the scene.

Quote
And in the case of the sun, it is the earth that is rotating in order to change apparent position in the sky of the relatively stationary sun, so no, the sun would not need to change its distance from the earth to create the perspective effects referred to in this thread.

No. The sun would need to change its distance to you very significantly if we are going to say that it can change its angles like the end of a long hallway. A rotating earth doesn't change your distance to the sun. It's really just a rotating camera. Rotating your camera around doesn't change perspective angles of distant bodies.

The angles don't change between the two railroad tracks in a railroad perspective scene when the camera makes a 360 degree roll upside down, nor does the angle between the vanishing point of the railroad track and a streetlight above your head change when the camera rolls around. The angles between bodies do not change at all.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 18, 2017, 05:33:16 PM
The effect of the T-Rex works just as well if you are stationary and the T-Rex is rotated in position. So it would work at any distance as long as you could still distinguish the features of the T-Rex, say through a telescope.

That is not recreating the scene.

Quote
And in the case of the sun, it is the earth that is rotating in order to change apparent position in the sky of the relatively stationary sun, so no, the sun would not need to change its distance from the earth to create the perspective effects referred to in this thread.

No. The sun would need to change its distance to you very significantly if we are going to say that it can change its angles like the end of a long hallway. A rotating earth doesn't change your distance to the sun. It's really just a rotating camera. Rotating your camera around doesn't change perspective angles of distant bodies.

The angles don't change between the two railroad tracks in a railroad perspective scene when the camera makes a 360 degree roll upside down, nor does the angle between the vanishing point of the railroad track and a streetlight above your head change when the camera rolls around. The angles between bodies do not change at all.

Rotating the T-rex does recreate the optical illusion which is the relevant point.

As for the examples with the camera, I am not sure what you are saying. Camera angles make a huge difference in perspective:
http://www.empireonline.com/movies/features/film-studies-101-camera-shots-styles/
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 18, 2017, 05:53:44 PM
The angles don't change between the two railroad tracks in a railroad perspective scene when the camera makes a 360 degree roll upside down, nor does the angle between the vanishing point of the railroad track and a streetlight above your head change when the camera rolls around. The angles between bodies do not change at all.

none of those examples are relevant to this 'illusion.'  all of your examples involve keeping the two points within a small field of view and merely rotating the field of view about its center.  that's not what's happening here.  this 'illusion' happens precisely because both objects are separated from one another by an angular distance greater than our field of view.

i realize i'm being total nag in this thread, but i'm genuinely befuddled by your refusal to perform a simple experiment.  isn't this the whole basis of your worldview, that experiment and direct sense experience trumps all else?  and isn't experiment always supposed to outweigh theory?  am i missing something here?

why are you suddenly only interested in talking about computer models and thought experiments about railroad tracks?  i'll stop being so petulant i guess, but i really don't see how you can take this position.  you have a way to see for yourself whether or not the path is a straight line, and you choose instead to hypothesize about railroad tracks and draw pictures with computers.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 18, 2017, 05:59:40 PM
Why are you constantly coming back to this? It is not very thought out and does not tell us anything. Even if I saw the moon pointing at the sun, it does not explain this video where the moon is not pointing at the sun.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 18, 2017, 06:13:55 PM
Why are you constantly coming back to this? It is not very thought out and does not tell us anything. Even if I saw the moon pointing at the sun, it does not explain this video where the moon is not pointing at the sun.

I just did the experiment this morning and the sun and moon were in a very similar relationship to the sun and moon in the video. The illuminated area of the moon appeared to be pointing up when the sun was still low in the sky. Once I connected them with a straight line, it was quite obvious that the illuminated area of the moon was pointing directly at the sun. If someone had carried out the string experiment in the video, there is no reason to expect that it would not have worked.

But as many on this thread have pointed out, you can test it for yourself. Where is your Zetetic sense of honor? Can't you bring yourself to do a simple experiment, even if then you choose to interpret the results differently on here? And maybe you could even post a video of your own experiment. And don't give me a hard time about shifting the burden of proof, this is your thread and your claim that the moon does not point at the sun.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 18, 2017, 06:19:43 PM
If you did the experiment why didn't you take a video? We all have cameras and camcorders in our pockets now.

The person in the video in the OP very clearly makes a straight line path away from the moon's phase and it does not point at the sun.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 18, 2017, 06:21:37 PM
Why are you constantly coming back to this?

because it directly demonstrates whether or not a straight line perpendicular to the moon's terminator does or does not point at the sun.  also because i can't hold a camera and the ends of a string at the same time.  i would love to hold your hand through the entire process and spoon-feed you the results, but i feel like you're fully capable of holding string in front of you.

it does not explain this video where the moon is not pointing at the sun.

if he'd used a string to actually mark a straight line instead of just imagining it in his head, then he would have seen that it was.  you can see it for yourself, too.  you don't have to take my word for it.  just find a time when it doesn't look like the moon is pointing at the sun, then use the string to make a line perpendicular to the moon's terminator.  you'll notice that it points directly at the sun.

you also don't have to hypothesize about whether or not a taut string makes a straight line.  just get a piece of string and hold it taut from either end.  it doesn't sag into a curve.  i can't believe i'm having to explain this to someone.

this morning when i did the string experiment, the moon didn't look like it was pointing at the sun.  the sun was near the horizon, and the moon's terminator was pointing up and to the left.  then i used the string to make a straight line perpendicular to the moon's terminator.  it pointed directly to the sun near the horizon.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 18, 2017, 06:37:59 PM
If you did the experiment why didn't you take a video? We all have cameras and camcorders in our pockets now.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 18, 2017, 06:42:00 PM
also because i can't hold a camera and the ends of a string at the same time.  i would love to hold your hand through the entire process and spoon-feed you the results, but i feel like you're fully capable of holding string in front of you.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 18, 2017, 06:48:07 PM
also because i can't hold a camera and the ends of a string at the same time.  i would love to hold your hand through the entire process and spoon-feed you the results, but i feel like you're fully capable of holding string in front of you.

I went out in our garage and found a lightweight rake that has a bar holding the splines that is perpendicular to the long handle. It should be perfect for making a video as I can hold the long rake with just one hand and the perpendicular bar will make it obvious that it is properly positioned. However, the moon is down now, and I am busy the next few days. Maybe someone else can catch it on video tomorrow, or I will try and get to it within the next week or so. Any long handled tool should work, but a perpendicular bar like the one on my little rake would probably add some clarity to what is being seen.

I also have a very cheap smartphone that I hardly ever use, so my video skills are almost nil. Anyone else up to the challenge?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 18, 2017, 11:48:32 PM
Tom, why insist we make a video when you could drag you own butt outside and do a little experiment with your own zetetic self.  You are basically that you get your education from YouTube videos.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 19, 2017, 01:28:05 AM
Tom, why insist we make a video when you could drag you own butt outside and do a little experiment with your own zetetic self.  You are basically that you get your education from YouTube videos.

We already have a video in the OP of the effect that you need to counter. The author makes a straight line path away from the moon and it does not point towards the sun. The evidence is on my side, okay? I presented evidence in the OP of this thread, and you need to explain it or provide some form of evidence against it. You need to do the work for it. You need to provide the counter. Repetitively asking me for evidence is not a valid argument. Evidence was provided in the OP. The ball is in your court.

You tried your perspective explanation, and it did not work. It was easily refuted as the sun is very far away, and not able to change distances from the observer significantly like the ends of a hallway. Points were made about the videos you made, which were ignored, and I can only assume that you are feeling embarrassed about the situation.

If you have anything further to present to me, let me know. Trying to shift the burden isn't going to work.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rama Set on April 19, 2017, 01:28:53 AM
It is really creepy seeing Tom deny what the RE CollectiveTM has done time and again in this thread; namely: do an experiment that contradicts the OP, and provide an explanation why.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 19, 2017, 01:33:13 AM
It is really creepy seeing Tom deny what the RE CollectiveTM has done time and again in this thread; namely: do an experiment that contradicts the OP, and provide an explanation why.

The experiment is an invalid one for reasons already described. Even if at some point I did happen to see the moon pointing at the sun, it does not explain the video in the op where the moon is not pointing at the sun.

Burden: You
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 19, 2017, 01:52:43 AM
We already have a video in the OP of the effect that you need to counter. The author makes a straight line path away from the moon and it does not point towards the sun.

no he doesn't.  that's the whole point.  he just points with his finger and assumes that he's making a straight line path.  that's a bad experiment.  you need to actually make a straight line with something.  like, you know, a string.  why imagine a straight line when you can use an actual straight line and know for sure?

you're not getting that we're all saying that when we did it, the moon did not appear to be 'pointing' at the sun, just like in the video.  when i did it, the sun was near the horizon, and the moon was pointing up and to the left, not at the horizon.  but when i used the string to make a straight line perpendicular to the moon's terminator, the taut string pointed directly at the sun on the horizon.

i mean, damn, tom, what do you have to lose by trying it yourself?  we're not asking you to document the experience with video or anything.  i already agree that's super impractical.  we're just saying that this is a quick, easy, and direct way to see for yourself that it's a straight line.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 19, 2017, 02:35:04 AM
I've grown to expect very little from, Tom.  He gets confused with how a piece of string could become straight.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 19, 2017, 05:29:34 AM
We already have a video in the OP of the effect that you need to counter. The author makes a straight line path away from the moon and it does not point towards the sun.

no he doesn't.  that's the whole point.  he just points with his finger and assumes that he's making a straight line path.  that's a bad experiment.  you need to actually make a straight line with something.  like, you know, a string.  why imagine a straight line when you can use an actual straight line and know for sure?

you're not getting that we're all saying that when we did it, the moon did not appear to be 'pointing' at the sun, just like in the video.  when i did it, the sun was near the horizon, and the moon was pointing up and to the left, not at the horizon.  but when i used the string to make a straight line perpendicular to the moon's terminator, the taut string pointed directly at the sun on the horizon.

i mean, damn, tom, what do you have to lose by trying it yourself?  we're not asking you to document the experience with video or anything.  i already agree that's super impractical.  we're just saying that this is a quick, easy, and direct way to see for yourself that it's a straight line.

The straight line path sure doesn't seem to be pointing at the sun to me:

(https://j.gifs.com/0gn147.gif)
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 19, 2017, 07:59:00 AM
Okay then slowly….It’s the natural thing to do when two items are low in opposite sides of the sky to turn from one to the other, he could have gone the opposite way round with his pointy finger and traced a seemingly straight line, but if he had followed the tree trunk at the start of the clip, that would have gone slightly over his head and traced the true line, if you don’t believe me, get a piece of string…..
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 19, 2017, 01:57:07 PM
i wonder how much time you've spent making gifs and 3d models.  significantly more than the time it takes to hold a piece of string in front of your face, i bet.

no one disagrees that the moon doesn't seem to be 'pointing' at the sun in your video.  but it is.  we're saying that using a real straight line is a better test than finger-pointing and arrows superimposed on a grainy 2d video.  the moon also didn't seem to 'point' at the sun when i did the test, but using a real straight line demonstrated to me that it actually does point at the sun. 

from the faq entry on zeteticism:
Quote
Zeteticism differs from the usual scientific method in that using zeteticism one bases his conclusions on experimentation and observation rather than on an initial theory that is to be proved or disproved. A zetetic forms the question then immediately sets to work making observations and performing experiments to answer that question, rather than speculating on what the answer might be then testing that out.

literally exactly what you're doing with arrows and fingers is speculating on what you think a straight line path should look like.  you're just imagining it in your head rather than testing it empirically with a real straight line.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Boots on April 19, 2017, 02:39:47 PM
that would have gone slightly over his head
I have no trouble believing this. A lot of things do.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 19, 2017, 04:04:34 PM
The crazy thing is that this whole thread evolved from a YouTube video.  The author isn't even a part of this conversation.  It's like anti-zeteticism.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 19, 2017, 06:40:14 PM
So I gave it a shot with my crappy little smartphone. I am not sure if it proves anything as it is hard to see the actual angle of the lighted area on the moon. I can simply report that I held the rake up with the 90 degree portion of the rake aligned with the line of light and dark on the moon. Then when I panned over to the sun, the long handle of the rake was clearly pointing at the center of the sun. It is a strange thing to perceive, since the moon does appear to be pointing upwards at empty sky, and the sun does appear to be too low in the sky to be creating that appearance on the moon, just as in the original video on this thread.

Anyways, with all of the caveats regarding the quality of the video, here it is (maybe someone else with better video skills could do better):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VK8BW3hijV4&feature=em-upload_owner
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 19, 2017, 06:47:22 PM
I just noticed that in the original video, that when the creator held up his hand to demonstrate the angle that the sun appeared to be hitting the moon from, his hand showed the exact same pattern of light and dark as the moon in the sky behind his hand. So not only does the angle of sun and moon appear off, but the angle of hand and sun appear off. The effect still applies at arm's length.

I was also relieved to see that his video was not that much better than mine  :-\ Although the contrast of the dark rake made it impossible to still see the moon, so again, for now, you would need to take my word that the rake was positioned properly. I may try it again later in the month when the sun is setting and the first quarter moon is high in the sky, as the sun and sky might be much less bright at that time of day which should make the moon easier to see.

In the meantime, anyone who is truly Zetetic can try the experiment for themselves....
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 20, 2017, 01:46:00 AM
Yep, like I said on page one, holding a small ball out at arm's length will result in the same effect.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 20, 2017, 01:58:03 AM
Yep, like I said on page one, holding a small ball out at arm's length will result in the same effect.

I remember seeing that. The great thing about a ball, is that you can hold it steady and move your head over behind it, and then look at the sun at the correct angle according to the line of light/dark on the ball. Voila, you will be looking directly at the sun, even though from the side, both the moon and the ball will still look like they are pointing up above the position of the sun.

But then someone would have to believe in the value of doing experiments and direct observation, like say a Zetetic scientist, to ever be bothered to check it for themselves.  ;)
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 20, 2017, 10:13:07 AM

Ten out of ten for effort Nirmala, be interesting to see what problems the Bish’ will have with it.

I have to be honest though, I was a bit disturbed out find out that “The Heron” wore socks with sandals, your neck of the woods an obvious no go area for the fashion police.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 20, 2017, 02:05:20 PM

Ten out of ten for effort Nirmala, be interesting to see what problems the Bish’ will have with it.

I have to be honest though, I was a bit disturbed out find out that “The Heron” wore socks with sandals, your neck of the woods an obvious no go area for the fashion police.

Thanks I tried to do my best. And please do not report me to the fashion police. I used to be cool, but now I am just lukewarm   :P
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 20, 2017, 10:03:56 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/td8Rh64.png)
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 20, 2017, 11:01:39 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/td8Rh64.png)

Oh yeah, this is me with the rake and my camera for sure. How did you know I am the local Limbo champion?
(http://www.conray.ch/images/cache/limbo-dance-tropical-night-312-640x480.jpg)

I have decided that Tom Bishop is undeniably a troll. Anyone who can't pick up a stick and look at the moon and sun for themselves is not on here for any other purpose than to pull our legs.

And anyways, bending backwards would not change my results at all. As if lowering my head a few feet would make a difference.  ::)
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 20, 2017, 11:50:35 PM
The point is that this is an invalid experiment. Limbo has nothing to do with it. While it is possible to get it lined up with the moon's crescent on one axis, you are tilting it on the other axis until there is a spot you can look at it where it lines up with the sun; the stick not truly matching the angle and direction of the moon.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 21, 2017, 12:04:13 AM
The point is that this is an invalid experiment. Limbo has nothing to do with it. While it is possible to get it lined up with the moon's crescent on one axis, you are tilting it on the other axis until there is a spot you can look at it where it lines up with the sun; the stick not truly matching the angle and direction of the moon.

I figured you would say that...but of course I had the rake in my hands and once I lined it up to be perpendicular to the line between light and dark on the moon, I did not move the rake while I panned the camera. There was no tilting involved.

However, I was doing the Limbo the entire time  ;D
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 21, 2017, 12:26:47 AM
I am not saying that you changed the tilt of the rake as you panned to the sun. I am saying that once you get the bottom end aligned with the crescent, there is another dimension of movement where you can tilt it until it appears aligned with the sun from some point. You could easily point your rake a little more vertical and have it still aligned with the crescent, yet pointing off into space. There is no real verification on exactly which angle is the correct angle.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 21, 2017, 12:45:37 AM
I am not saying that you changed the tilt of the rake as you panned to the sun. I am saying that once you get the bottom end aligned with the crescent, there is another dimension of movement where you can tilt it until it appears aligned with the sun from some point. You could easily point your rake a little more vertical and have it still aligned with the crescent, yet pointing off into space. There is no real verification on exactly which angle is the correct angle.
Have you tried it for yourself yet?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 21, 2017, 01:45:01 AM
I am not saying that you changed the tilt of the rake as you panned to the sun. I am saying that once you get the bottom end aligned with the crescent, there is another dimension of movement where you can tilt it until it appears aligned with the sun from some point. You could easily point your rake a little more vertical and have it still aligned with the crescent, yet pointing off into space. There is no real verification on exactly which angle is the correct angle.

That is not correct. Once the perpendicular portion of the rake is lined up with the line of light and dark on the moon and the center of the rake handle bisects the center of the moon, then the only angle that can vary is how far away from me the other end of the rake is, but that would not change the fact that it points directly at the sun. All it would change is the apparent length of the stick from my point of view.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 21, 2017, 02:18:47 AM
Well, in this thread we have shown that anyone, with minimal effort and a basic understanding of perspective, can see first-hand that the moon really is lined up with the sun using a piece of string,rake handle, or any manner of straight hand-held objects.  Or see the exact same "but it doesn't seem lined up" effect using a building's roofline, railroad tracks, hallway, living room ceiling, or other straight line.

I guess that about covers it.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 21, 2017, 02:27:39 AM
We've also learned where Mr Zetetic Extraordinaire Tom Bishop gets his education.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 21, 2017, 03:17:10 AM
I am not saying that you changed the tilt of the rake as you panned to the sun. I am saying that once you get the bottom end aligned with the crescent, there is another dimension of movement where you can tilt it until it appears aligned with the sun from some point. You could easily point your rake a little more vertical and have it still aligned with the crescent, yet pointing off into space. There is no real verification on exactly which angle is the correct angle.

That is not correct. Once the perpendicular portion of the rake is lined up with the line of light and dark on the moon and the center of the rake handle bisects the center of the moon, then the only angle that can vary is how far away from me the other end of the rake is, but that would not change the fact that it points directly at the sun. All it would change is the apparent length of the stick from my point of view.

I just tested this sitting here at my desk. I held my forearm up with the elbow at a particular height, which is equivalent to the handle of the rake held at the exact height that bisects the moon. Then I found a particular angle for my arm in relation to the floor, which is the equivalent of the handle being perpendicular to the line of light and dark on the moon, only in this case it locks in an angle between my arm and the floor. Then if I hold my elbow at the preset height, and maintain the angle of my arm in relation to the floor, the only thing I can do is move the tip of my fingers towards or away from my eyes. When I move them away, my arm appears shorter, but my fingers continue to point at the same spot on the wall behind my arm, which happened to be a corner of the window. This is equivalent to the rake handle pointing at the sun. If I maintain the position of my elbow and the angle of my arm, but bring my fingers closer to my eyes, then my forearm appears longer so that it now bisects the corner of the window. So how close the tips of my fingers appear to be to the corner of the window changes (i.e. the apparent length of my arm from fixed elbow to moving fingertips), but the arm is always either pointing at that corner or bisecting that corner. So the straight line between my fixed elbow and the corner of the window does not change even if I rotate my arm in the remaining third dimension.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: juner on April 21, 2017, 04:08:50 AM
We've also learned where Mr Zetetic Extraordinaire Tom Bishop gets his education.

Please refrain from low content posting in the upper fora. Warned.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 21, 2017, 11:22:05 AM

Junker! Seeing as you are here on patrol, have you tried this string thing? Indeed have any of the FE fraternity prised themselves from their basements to do a simple bit of real world experimentation, I don’t want to push Tom anymore as there is obviously something or someone that is preventing him from going out.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 21, 2017, 01:11:17 PM

Junker! Seeing as you are here on patrol, have you tried this string thing? Indeed have any of the FE fraternity prised themselves from their basements to do a simple bit of real world experimentation, I don’t want to push Tom anymore as there is obviously something or someone that is preventing him from going out.

Why would Junker want to perform this invalid "string thing" experiment?

(http://i.imgur.com/4ehsvhf.png)

Have you tried it for yourself yet?

Why would I need to? I was considering trying it, until we talked about it more and you guys clearly demonstrated how utterly invalid and useless it is.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rama Set on April 21, 2017, 01:24:41 PM
Obviously better than drawing an imaginary line, like the OP.  Your illogic is astonishing Senor Bishop.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 21, 2017, 01:53:06 PM
Obviously better than drawing an imaginary line, like the OP.  Your illogic is astonishing Senor Bishop.

The illustration gives a better view of the experiment. Nirmala did the experiment for us on video, and I didn't accuse him of deception. I have no problem with the video showing what it shows. Why replicate again? How many videos of the same thing do we need?

The illustration I provided is a pungent point that the experiment is ultimately an invalid test of the moon's direction.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rama Set on April 21, 2017, 02:16:22 PM
Obviously better than drawing an imaginary line, like the OP.  Your illogic is astonishing Senor Bishop.

The illustration gives a better view of the experiment. Nirmala did the experiment for us on video, and I didn't accuse him of deception. I have no problem with the video showing what it shows. Why replicate again? How many videos of the same thing do we need?

The illustration I provided is a pungent point that the experiment is ultimately an invalid test of the moon's direction.

Your illustration is a stick drawing of worse quality than my 5 year-old son's; it demonstrates only your inability to critically evaluate anything that disagrees with you, and not a shred more.  Since it does not accurately reflect what happened in the video, drawing quality aside, I am not sure how you can make this argument with a straight face.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 21, 2017, 02:21:08 PM

I concur, both as art and as an illustration of your understanding, it’s another failure I’m afraid, hopefully a member of the FE crew will attempt this in the true spirit of free thinking discovery, that this place is supposed to represent.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 21, 2017, 02:32:33 PM

I concur, both as art and as an illustration of your understanding, it’s another failure I’m afraid, hopefully a member of the FE crew will attempt this in the true spirit of free thinking discovery, that this place is supposed to represent.

The test was critically evaluated and you have yet to explain how we can do this "string thing" experiment without repeating the flaw as illustrated.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rama Set on April 21, 2017, 02:35:48 PM

I concur, both as art and as an illustration of your understanding, it’s another failure I’m afraid, hopefully a member of the FE crew will attempt this in the true spirit of free thinking discovery, that this place is supposed to represent.

The test was critically evaluated and you have yet to explain how we can do this "string thing" experiment without repeating the flaw as illustrated.

The flaw of having too flexible a back?  Nirmala already explained the problem of the position of the measuring stick in a 3D space.  Maybe you should read it again?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 21, 2017, 02:45:31 PM

I concur, both as art and as an illustration of your understanding, it’s another failure I’m afraid, hopefully a member of the FE crew will attempt this in the true spirit of free thinking discovery, that this place is supposed to represent.

The test was critically evaluated and you have yet to explain how we can do this "string thing" experiment without repeating the flaw as illustrated.

The flaw of having too flexible a back?  Nirmala already explained the problem of the position of the measuring stick in a 3D space.  Maybe you should read it again?

The illustration can easily be redrawn with him standing straight up and holding the string above his head. What a transparent and pathetic rebuttal. Limbo has nothing to do with it.

Everyone can see what the problem is here with this "string thing" experiment. The directions are to take a string, align with the direction of the moon's crescent, and connect it from the moon to the sun. This would result in what I have illustrated. You have provided nothing compelling to ensure that the string is pointing in exactly the same angle as the moon. I must assume that you have been outsmarted.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rama Set on April 21, 2017, 02:50:25 PM
The illustration can easily be redrawn with him standing straight up and holding the string above his head.

Then why did you produce such a juvenile diagram?

Quote
What a transparent and pathetic rebuttal. Limbo has nothing to do with it.

It just goes to how terrible your diagram, that you claim explains everything, actually is.  Perhaps you should put in a little more effort?

Quote
Everyone can see what the problem is here with this "string thing" experiment.

Bold claim.  Evidence?  Or are you pretending you are "everyone"?

Quote
The directions are to take a string, align with the crescent, and connect it from the moon to the sun. This would result in what I have illustrated.

Your thought experiment is inferior to actually doing the experiment.  This is your own standard, so start living up to it.

Quote
You have provided nothing compelling to ensure that the string is pointing in exactly the same direction as the moon's phase. I must only assume that you have been outsmarted.

Just do it yourself.  You have wasted more time protesting the experiment than it would take to do it.  If you are correct, it should be trivial to demonstrate.  Everyone has a camera in their pocket after all  ;)
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 21, 2017, 02:51:33 PM
I have no problem with the video provided. Why do I need to do it again?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 21, 2017, 02:55:50 PM



I concur, both as art and as an illustration of your understanding, it’s another failure I’m afraid, hopefully a member of the FE crew will attempt this in the true spirit of free thinking discovery, that this place is supposed to represent.

The test was critically evaluated and you have yet to explain how we can do this "string thing" experiment without repeating the flaw as illustrated.

Tom the only thing you have successfully illustrated is your lack of comprehension, compounded by your refusal to check your flawed reasoning with a simple test. When considering the beliefs of your hero on direct evidence over just speculating is inexplicable.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 21, 2017, 03:09:28 PM
Tom the only thing you have successfully illustrated is your lack of comprehension, compounded by your refusal to check your flawed reasoning with a simple test. When considering the beliefs of your hero on direct evidence over just speculating is inexplicable.

There is no way for the "string thing" experiment, as described, to rule out the possibility illustrated. Why should I perform a flawed test?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: juner on April 21, 2017, 03:09:52 PM

Junker! Seeing as you are here on patrol, have you tried this string thing? Indeed have any of the FE fraternity prised themselves from their basements to do a simple bit of real world experimentation, I don’t want to push Tom anymore as there is obviously something or someone that is preventing him from going out.

I haven't tried it. I'm not opposed to trying it, but I'm not overly sure what we are trying to accomplish in this thread. Can I get a tl;dr version so I don't have to read 10 pages of arguing?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rama Set on April 21, 2017, 03:20:12 PM
TL;dr

Be it resolved that a line drawn on the 2D projection of the sky, perpindicular from the chord of the lunar terminator intersects with the sun. FE has assumed the negative side.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 21, 2017, 03:26:51 PM
Or the slightly more wordy version;

Tom saw a video (it’s in his first post), where this bloke gets excited about the fact that the angle that the moon seems to be pointing doesn’t correspond to the angle you would expect it to be at when in the sky with the sun, then he kind of figuratively goes woo, but doesn’t say what it all means, I think he has other videos that go woo about other stuff including flat earth stuff, so Tom goes woo too.
The RE collective (TM Rama) point out after a while that it’s an optical illusion that can be collapsed by stretching a straight piece of string between the two, but Tom is struggling, the conditions are right to do this in the morning now, I think (we’ve had wall to wall cloud the last 3 days), could you help him?

(11 pages! Fuck I must get out more)
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: juner on April 21, 2017, 03:44:42 PM
TL;dr
Be it resolved that a line drawn on the 2D projection of the sky, perpindicular from the chord of the lunar terminator intersects with the sun. FE has assumed the negative side.


Or the slightly more wordy version;

Tom saw a video (it’s in his first post), where this bloke gets excited about the fact that the angle that the moon seems to be pointing doesn’t correspond to the angle you would expect it to be at when in the sky with the sun, then he kind of figuratively goes woo, but doesn’t say what it all means, I think he has other videos that go woo about other stuff including flat earth stuff, so Tom goes woo too.
The RE collective (TM Rama) point out after a while that it’s an optical illusion that can be collapsed by stretching a straight piece of string between the two, but Tom is struggling, the conditions are right to do this in the morning now, I think (we’ve had wall to wall cloud the last 3 days), could you help him?

(11 pages! Fuck I must get out more)


Alright, I think I am caught up. I wouldn't mind giving it a go if/when I am thinking about it and conditions allow for it. However, regardless of outcome, why would this be evidence for either side? Seems to be explainable in either model.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 21, 2017, 03:51:25 PM

Well quite! We've been arguing for 11 pages saying that it didn't prove a thing about flat/round, it's just an illusion, but Tom keeps going woo, I just want it to stop Junker, I can't  sleep.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rama Set on April 21, 2017, 03:53:38 PM

Well quite! We've been arguing for 11 pages saying that it didn't prove a thing about flat/round, it's just an illusion, but Tom keeps going woo, I just want it to stop Junker, I can't  sleep.

Is the whole thing leaving you in... limbo?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 21, 2017, 04:03:26 PM

And now Rama is saying things I feel I should find funny, he’s a funny guy, right? But I don’t, not even when I stretch a piece of string to join all the words.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 21, 2017, 05:05:55 PM
Alright, I think I am caught up. I wouldn't mind giving it a go if/when I am thinking about it and conditions allow for it. However, regardless of outcome, why would this be evidence for either side? Seems to be explainable in either model.

Junker, it is an invalid experiment. You are replicating the direction, but not the angle of the moon. With the string you may end up making a path that connects the two bodies, but is not true to the angle of the moon:

(http://i.imgur.com/4ehsvhf.png)
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 21, 2017, 05:11:14 PM
Alright, I think I am caught up. I wouldn't mind giving it a go if/when I am thinking about it and conditions allow for it. However, regardless of outcome, why would this be evidence for either side? Seems to be explainable in either model.

Junker, it is an invalid experiment. You are replicating the direction, but not the angle of the moon. With the string you may end up making a path that connects the two bodies, but is not true to the angle of the moon:

(http://i.imgur.com/4ehsvhf.png)
How do you know it doesn't bisect the phase of the moon?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Whistler on April 21, 2017, 06:01:15 PM
Hello everyone, new here...

I found this video helpful... not sure if anyone else here will

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AI4b_TAkcoM
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on April 21, 2017, 06:05:04 PM
Alright, I think I am caught up. I wouldn't mind giving it a go if/when I am thinking about it and conditions allow for it. However, regardless of outcome, why would this be evidence for either side? Seems to be explainable in either model.

Junker, it is an invalid experiment. You are replicating the direction, but not the angle of the moon. With the string you may end up making a path that connects the two bodies, but is not true to the angle of the moon:

(http://i.imgur.com/4ehsvhf.png)

That is your misunderstanding in a nutshell. When the string or stick exactly bisects the sun and the moon, it does form a perpendicular to the line between dark and light on the moon, which you would have discovered if you were not so inexplicably resistant to actually looking for yourself. Maintaining that perpendicular relationship to the line on the moon, and keeping the line of the stick/string at the correct height so that it continues to bisect both the sun and the moon only allows movement in one additional plane which is to move one end of the stick closer or further away from your eyes (from above this would be rotating the stick like a pinwheel). But when you do that while maintaining the perpendicular to the line of light/dark on the moon, the stick or string still bisects the sun.

Changing this third dimensional position of the stick or string does not change the perpendicular relationship of the stick to the line on the moon, nor does it cause the line of the string or stick to stop bisecting the discs of the sun and the moon. Note, if you rotate the stick or string far enough away from your eye, it begins to appear shortened as any stick does if you turn it while keeping it at a preset angle due to perspective, but the actual line formed by the stick/string continues to bisect the sun and moon if it is extended beyond the ends of the stick/string which now appear shortened due to perspective. Of course if you keep rotating a stick like this, it will eventually form a point instead of a line as you will be looking at just one end of the stick, but prior to that point, the apparent directions extending beyond the ends of the stick will still bisect the sun and the moon and also maintain the proper angle to the light/dark boundary on the moon.

Please Junker, do the experiment and report back so that we can move on....although if we are going to wait for Tom Bishop to accept defeat, that is probably a pipe dream. Conditions will be ideal again around May 2nd when the moon will be at the first quarter phase, for easy viewing of the sun and partially shaded moon in the late afternoon and just before sunset.

PS: Tom, The problem with your drawing is that you are only showing two dimensions, so when the stick figure bends over, the perpendicular relationship of the stick to the light boundary on the moon is lost. This does not occur when actually doing the experiment, even when I turn the stick in the third dimension.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: andruszkow on April 21, 2017, 06:21:59 PM
Hello everyone, new here...

I found this video helpful... not sure if anyone else here will

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AI4b_TAkcoM
Indeed it is, and such a simple experiment as well. No floppy strings needed.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rama Set on April 21, 2017, 06:50:12 PM

Junker, it is an invalid experiment. You are replicating the direction, but not the angle of the moon. With the string you may end up making a path that connects the two bodies, but is not true to the angle of the moon:


Yet somehow, strangely, illogically, removing the string and eyeballing it is totally valid and eliminates this concern for you? 
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on April 21, 2017, 08:02:18 PM
i honestly don't understand what the stick figure drawing is supposed to be showing.  the stick figure appears to be looking up, but the sun and moon are depicted as off to the side.  are the sun and moon supposed to be near the horizon like they're drawn, or are they supposed to be high up in the sky?  and what is the field of view here?  is this supposed to be a representation of what the video person saw?

i definitely didn't have to bend over like the stick figure to make my measurement.  the sun was on the horizon, and the half-crescent moon was maybe 30-45ish deg above the horizon (really rough guess, but something like that) and 'pointing' up and to the left.  when i was looking directly at the moon, the sun was off to my left, not behind me.  i did the experiment standing up straight with both the sun and moon basically right in front of me.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 21, 2017, 11:43:48 PM
Hello everyone, new here...

I found this video helpful... not sure if anyone else here will

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AI4b_TAkcoM
Indeed it is, and such a simple experiment as well. No floppy strings needed.

Totally invalid video. Bad logic. The sun is a nearly steady 93 million miles away. How is it descending as it recedes from you with the same perspective mechanism as the end of a hallway?

You do realize that in order for a body to descend to perspective as it recedes from you it needs to double and quadruple and n-tuple its distance to you. Right? Don't be clueless.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rama Set on April 21, 2017, 11:52:01 PM
Tom, you think eyeballing a line is better than using a measuring stick. You really shouldn't insinuate someone else is clueless.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 22, 2017, 03:52:06 AM
Here is a string for you, Tom.
https://youtu.be/Vj-8NsIxb5U
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 22, 2017, 04:15:13 AM
Hey Flatout, this comment applies to you, too:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Totally invalid video. Bad logic. The sun is a nearly steady 93 million miles away. How is it descending as it recedes from you with the same perspective mechanism as the end of a hallway?

You do realize that in order for a body to descend to perspective as it recedes from you it needs to double and quadruple and n-tuple its distance to you. Right? Don't be clueless.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 22, 2017, 04:15:32 AM
Hey Flatout, this comment applies to you, too:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Totally invalid video. Bad logic. The sun is a nearly steady 93 million miles away. How is it descending as it recedes from you with the same perspective mechanism as the end of a hallway?

You do realize that in order for a body to descend to perspective as it recedes from you it needs to double and quadruple and n-tuple its distance to you. Right? Don't be clueless.
I don't think that sun appears to be lower on the horizon because of perspective.  I believe that the angle between the sun and moon appear to not be congruent because of perspective.  You seem to be implying that the sun appears to be lower because of perspective.  My position is that the sun appears to be lower than the projected line of perspective when looking at the moon.  The two are very different.  The distance between the two objects is absolutely irrelevant.  This illusion would happen if the sun was 93 million miles away or only 3,000 miles away. 

Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 22, 2017, 04:22:27 AM
Hey Flatout, this comment applies to you, too:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Totally invalid video. Bad logic. The sun is a nearly steady 93 million miles away. How is it descending as it recedes from you with the same perspective mechanism as the end of a hallway?

You do realize that in order for a body to descend to perspective as it recedes from you it needs to double and quadruple and n-tuple its distance to you. Right? Don't be clueless.
I don't think that sun appears to be lower on the horizon because of perspective.  I believe that the angle between the sun and moon appear to not be congruent because of perspective.  You seem to be implying that the sun appears to be lower because of perspective.  My position is that the sun appears to be lower than the projected line of perspective when looking at the moon.  The two are very different.  The distance between the two objects is absolutely irrelevant.  This illusion would happen if the sun was 93 million miles away or only 3,000 miles away.

You are claiming that perspective is the cause for the "celestial sphere" effect. Descent and ascent of bodies in the "celestial sphere" effect on a body 93 million miles away, caused by the mechanism of perspective, is complete baloney!

In order for a body to descend in height as it recedes from you, it must increase its distance to you by many times. This is not happening with the sun as it passes across the sky. The sun is 93 million miles away from you, under the Round Earth model, at all times.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 22, 2017, 04:24:34 AM
Hey Flatout, this comment applies to you, too:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Totally invalid video. Bad logic. The sun is a nearly steady 93 million miles away. How is it descending as it recedes from you with the same perspective mechanism as the end of a hallway?

You do realize that in order for a body to descend to perspective as it recedes from you it needs to double and quadruple and n-tuple its distance to you. Right? Don't be clueless.
I don't think that sun appears to be lower on the horizon because of perspective.  I believe that the angle between the sun and moon appear to not be congruent because of perspective.  You seem to be implying that the sun appears to be lower because of perspective.  My position is that the sun appears to be lower than the projected line of perspective when looking at the moon.  The two are very different.  The distance between the two objects is absolutely irrelevant.  This illusion would happen if the sun was 93 million miles away or only 3,000 miles away.

You are claiming that perspective is the cause for the "celestial sphere" effect. Descent and ascent of bodies in the "celestial sphere" effect on a body 93 million miles away, caused by the mechanism of perspective, is complete baloney!

In order for a body to descend in height as it recedes from you, it must increase its distance to you by many times. This is not happening with the sun. The sun is 93 million miles away from you, under the Round Earth model, at all times.
No.  I'm not claiming that the "celestial sphere" effect is an issue of perspective.  The "celestial sphere" effect happens because the brain in unable to comprehend the depth or distance of the objects.

Perspective causes the appearance of the angles to not be congruent when they really are.

The sun and moon change their position compared to the horizon because the earth rotates.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on April 22, 2017, 03:16:49 PM
No.  I'm not claiming that the "celestial sphere" effect is an issue of perspective.  The "celestial sphere" effect happens because the brain in unable to comprehend the depth or distance of the objects.

So the sun and moon changes physical distance and position in relation to each other because the brain is "unable to comprehend depth or distance"? You are going to have to explain that a little more. That sounds rather absurd.

Quote
The sun and moon change their position compared to the horizon because the earth rotates.

Please flesh out this absurdity a little more as well.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Flatout on April 22, 2017, 03:30:28 PM
Tom, I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to infer.

The distance is what it is. The celestial sphere effect doest cause anything to physically change their distance.   This illusion would happen regardless of the distance.

How about you explain why they don't appear to line up.  Prove that the light is bending.  Please do an electromagnetic acceleration experiment that bends light.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on April 22, 2017, 04:13:31 PM
You do realize that in order for a body to descend to perspective as it recedes from you it needs to double and quadruple and n-tuple its distance to you. Right? Don't be clueless.

In order for a body to descend in height as it recedes from you, it must increase its distance to you by many times.
So you're saying a 3000 mile high sun over a flat Earth would never produce a sunset.    Thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: nobulart on July 06, 2017, 07:11:22 PM
Thought I'd share my photographic record of this phenomenon. Shot with an iPhone 6 panoramic stitched image with the camera pan center-point tracking the azimuthal 0˚. Images have been contrast and brightness adjusted. Originals with EXIF data available on request. The black dot in the center of the sun approximates the actual solar disk size.

Download full resolution : http://nobulart.com/assets/sunmoon_20170704.jpg (http://nobulart.com/assets/sunmoon_20170704.jpg) (11.4mb 8400x10000 pixels)

(http://nobulart.com/assets/sunmoon_20170704_small.jpg)
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on July 11, 2017, 01:27:01 AM
Thought I'd share my photographic record of this phenomenon. Shot with an iPhone 6 panoramic stitched image with the camera pan center-point tracking the azimuthal 0˚. Images have been contrast and brightness adjusted. Originals with EXIF data available on request. The black dot in the center of the sun approximates the actual solar disk size.

Download full resolution : http://nobulart.com/assets/sunmoon_20170704.jpg (http://nobulart.com/assets/sunmoon_20170704.jpg) (11.4mb 8400x10000 pixels)

Just for fun, try holding a small ball out at arm's length in the direction of the moon while observing this and see if the phase on the ball matches that of the moon.  Bonus points if you post a picture of it.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: ErnestV1 on July 11, 2017, 07:13:08 PM
Nobulart, your shadows on the 3rd (woman on the beach far right) and 4th pictures (awning shadow far left portion of the house on the right) do not line up with the sun, how can we trust that the lens distortion ... or whatever... isn't so bad that drawing a line from point a to point b on any of them are true to life representations?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on July 11, 2017, 08:27:25 PM

this is the same problem Tom had, if you track along the horizon as you naturally turn you don't actually go the shortest way, which is more over your head, if you do the string experiment we talked about earlier in the thread, the angle bisects.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: JHelzer on July 11, 2017, 08:43:15 PM
Nobulart, your shadows on the 3rd (woman on the beach far right) and 4th pictures (awning shadow far left portion of the house on the right) do not line up with the sun, how can we trust that the lens distortion ... or whatever... isn't so bad that drawing a line from point a to point b on any of them are true to life representations?

I printed out the picture and bent it into a semi-circle.  Bam!  The sun and the woman's shadow lined right up.  I also domed the sky and cut up a line of sticky notes. Bam!  The sun and the moon's shadow line right up. 

Following the horizon from the moon to the sun isn't the only straight line between them.  The one that bisects the moon is the true straight line in 3D space.  The rest are illusions.

Here's a pic...   (my dome cutting was off a little, but it's really close  ;))
(http://www.mytrexinc.com/g/fe/sun-moon-line.png)
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Nirmala on July 11, 2017, 10:21:14 PM
Very clever way to show the effect of putting the image into three dimensions!
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: ErnestV1 on July 12, 2017, 03:49:34 AM
Nicely done, JHeltzer.  8)
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: neutrino on July 13, 2017, 08:00:29 AM
I came across a youtube video which asks some interesting questions about the angles of the sun and moon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blrDd7aCDnM&feature=youtu.be
Bishop, you aren't serious about that, right? Ever heard of a spherical sky map? The straight lines just don't work.

Woof, you guys need to study a bit of math really. You draw conclusions like a 1-grade boy. Do you have B.Sc degree in anything technical?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: ErnestV1 on July 13, 2017, 09:03:52 PM
I wish I had a wide angle lens. My thinking is that if instead of using the horizon as the plane of reference which most humans prefer to do, instead, put the roughly half moon on the far right or left with the phase line oriented up/down in the view finder and the sun on the opposite side of the view from that of the moon. This should orient the camera's wide angle plane (I will refer to this as bisecting the horizontal view of the camera) to that of the same plane as described by A (sun) B (earth) and C (moon). Then also take the same picture with the earth's horizon bisecting the horizontal view of the camera. Compare the phase angle to that of the 2D representation of the sun/moon most direct line. If I am right, the first picture will show a distinctly different phase angle of the moon than the second.

Where we get into trouble on this earth in looking for the phase to match the sun's perceived angle is by forgetting that the horizon is a plane which does not include any but the earth itself except at either sunset or moonset, or on very rare occasions where both occur simultaneously.

Again, I do not have a wide angle camera lens, so cannot perform this experiment myself, so am asking the help of someone who does... if I have been unclear in describing the experiment, please ask for clarification.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on July 14, 2017, 02:32:27 AM
Again, I do not have a wide angle camera lens, so cannot perform this experiment myself, so am asking the help of someone who does...
No special lenses or waiting for certain phases of the moon to occur are needed.

Do you have access to a room or hallway with straight walls?  A ball with a line around it (representing the moon and it's day/night side) and another ball representing the sun will also aid in this experiment.  Secure the 'sun' to one upper corner of the room, and the 'moon' to the next corner with one half facing the 'sun' (line should be perpendicular to the wall/ceiling seam that runs between moon ball and sun ball)

Stand a few feet from wall partway between moon and sun balls and look up at them. 

Does it look similar to actual moon phase angle?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Efins on July 14, 2017, 06:42:22 AM
Just a little point... if the Earth had diameter of 12,7 millions of meters, (without furthermore considering that being the Earth a flat disc it should have a double diameter, thus making unrealistic the circumnavigation times in the two emispheres, southern and northern) assuming that the sun, that it is supposet to be 93 millions miles (148mld meters) far away, hits with his warm rays the Earth's surface, all the surface as one would be contemporaneously illuminated and, according your model, there would be no season and no day-night alternation, as the sun is too far from the Earth to product a localized illumination effect, just try with your desktop light.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: ErnestV1 on July 15, 2017, 03:56:16 AM
Again, I do not have a wide angle camera lens, so cannot perform this experiment myself, so am asking the help of someone who does...
No special lenses or waiting for certain phases of the moon to occur are needed.

Do you have access to a room or hallway with straight walls?  A ball with a line around it (representing the moon and it's day/night side) and another ball representing the sun will also aid in this experiment.  Secure the 'sun' to one upper corner of the room, and the 'moon' to the next corner with one half facing the 'sun' (line should be perpendicular to the wall/ceiling seam that runs between moon ball and sun ball)

Stand a few feet from wall partway between moon and sun balls and look up at them. 

Does it look similar to actual moon phase angle?

The one component your ball theory avoids is the possibility of looking at the balls from a plane other than the plane of the balls. In a 3d realm, you must consider the third dimension in your equation or you will deceive yourself.

You can design your experiment, I have defined one I believe will show that most of these 'phase do not match' issues are due to looking at the sun and the moon through an oblique angle to the plane of the horizon of earth which will throw off the phase angle.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2017, 04:17:58 AM
Nobulart, your shadows on the 3rd (woman on the beach far right) and 4th pictures (awning shadow far left portion of the house on the right) do not line up with the sun, how can we trust that the lens distortion ... or whatever... isn't so bad that drawing a line from point a to point b on any of them are true to life representations?

I printed out the picture and bent it into a semi-circle.  Bam!  The sun and the woman's shadow lined right up.  I also domed the sky and cut up a line of sticky notes. Bam!  The sun and the moon's shadow line right up. 

Following the horizon from the moon to the sun isn't the only straight line between them.  The one that bisects the moon is the true straight line in 3D space.  The rest are illusions.

Here's a pic...   (my dome cutting was off a little, but it's really close  ;))
(http://www.mytrexinc.com/g/fe/sun-moon-line.png)

Unfortunately for this theory the sky is not a sphere which the sun and moon and lines rest against to cause artificial curvature.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2017, 04:23:20 AM
Bishop, you aren't serious about that, right? Ever heard of a spherical sky map? The straight lines just don't work.

Woof, you guys need to study a bit of math really. You draw conclusions like a 1-grade boy. Do you have B.Sc degree in anything technical?

Fictitious premise. The sky is not a sphere which things rest against.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: ErnestV1 on July 15, 2017, 04:27:43 AM
model29, I thought about your experiment a little, and I believe that I could modify what you propose and make it fairly accurate.

1st, you need to know the sun's elevation angle. This can be determined by looking at your own shadow and measuring it... might have to have a friend's help, then use some geometry to calculate the sun's angle (opposite angle to personal height or adjacent angle to shadow length). 2nd you will need a protractor. By setting the sun at the 0 degree reference point, estimate the moon's angle on the protractor. 3rd, use the protractor again, but orient it 90 degrees with the horizon being 0 degrees, and once again estimate the moon's angle.

Now in your hallway, set up a flash light (sun) above your line of sight at the angle calculated above, set up your moon at the angles recorded in 2 and 3 above, be sure to stand in the appropriate spot so flashlight and ball/moon match the recorded information and that your flashlight in the darkened hall is shining at the ball/moon. This should get you the appropriate phase angle viewed by the real moon above.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: ErnestV1 on July 15, 2017, 04:30:51 AM
Bishop, you aren't serious about that, right? Ever heard of a spherical sky map? The straight lines just don't work.

Woof, you guys need to study a bit of math really. You draw conclusions like a 1-grade boy. Do you have B.Sc degree in anything technical?

Fictitious premise. The sky is not a sphere which things rest against.

Isn't one of FE tenets that the heavens are a dome? Am I wrong?

No matter, for all of us, FE or Spherical, the sky appears to be a semi-sphere.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2017, 05:09:11 AM
Isn't one of FE tenets that the heavens are a dome?

Nope. I welcome you to try and find something about a dome in Earth Not a Globe or any of the other Flat Earth literature sources.

Quote
No matter, for all of us, FE or Spherical, the sky appears to be a semi-sphere.

The sky is not a sphere. How would things curve against it if it were not a literal sphere? Straight lines would be straight, unless they were resting against something curved.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rounder on July 15, 2017, 05:17:51 AM
The sky is not a sphere which things rest against.
True, it is much larger and more complex than that simplistic image, as any RE will tell you. 

It's also not a two dimensional object like a photograph, which invalidates the method of moon angle measurement attempted by the guy in your thread-opening video.  Spherical Geometry is difficult and occasionally counterintuitive.

Your video accidentally undermines the flat earth.  The guy claims there is something wrong with the moon angle, but he leaves unspoken the rest of the sentence: "if the earth-moon-sun system is the way I imagine it: flat earth, small nearby sun, small nearby moon of identical size and distance."  The fact that things don't look like you think they should under your model?  That suggests your model is wrong.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2017, 05:27:47 AM
The sky is not a sphere which things rest against.
True, it is much larger and more complex than that simplistic image, as any RE will tell you.

It's also not a two dimensional object like a photograph, which invalidates the method of moon angle measurement attempted by the guy in your thread-opening video.  Spherical Geometry is difficult and occasionally counterintuitive.

Again, straight lines would be straight, unless they were resting against something curved.

Your "spherical geometry" of the sky is difficult and hard to explain when challenged because it is fake.

Quote
Your video accidentally undermines the flat earth.  The guy claims there is something wrong with the moon angle, but he leaves unspoken the rest of the sentence: "if the earth-moon-sun system is the way I imagine it: flat earth, small nearby sun, small nearby moon of identical size and distance."  The fact that things don't look like you think they should under your model?  That suggests your model is wrong.

I don't follow. What do you think things should look like?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Rounder on July 15, 2017, 05:48:41 AM
Your "spherical geometry" of the sky is difficult and hard to explain when challenged because it is fake.
One's inability to understand something does not prove it fake.  I truly don't understand how any modern person can believe in the flat earth, for example, but apparently THAT isn't fake.

I don't follow. What do you think things should look like?
I'm not the one who thinks moon angles don't make sense.  I think things SHOULD look exactly as they DO look, because I understand the geometry.  In the round-earth, far-away-sun, smaller-closer-moon system, the local horizon is not the correct reference against which the angles are measured.  The angle to the axis of the earth's rotation is the correct reference, and when you rotate about that axis the sun-moon angles resolve correctly.  On the flat earth, the local horizon is the worldwide reference, and you get strange angles everywhere except today's sub-solar latitude.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2017, 02:27:39 PM
You believe that if there was a large ruler in the sky between the sun and the moon that a straight ruler would appear to curve in the sky.

For what reason would a straight line appear curved? A straight line should appear straight, no matter which angle you look at it from. You are providing nothing but nonsense explanations.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: TomInAustin on July 15, 2017, 02:47:48 PM
Is anyone else going to attempt to defend the heliocentric model?

With all due respect, you often times ignore arguments you don't like.   That said. You can mimic the angles using a flashlight and tennis balls.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2017, 02:50:11 PM
You believe that if there was a large ruler in the sky between the sun and the moon that a straight ruler would appear to curve in the sky.

For what reason would a straight line appear curved? A straight line should appear straight, no matter which angle you look at it from. You are providing nothing but nonsense explanations.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on July 15, 2017, 03:10:07 PM
You believe that if there was a large ruler in the sky between the sun and the moon that a straight ruler would appear to curve in the sky.

For what reason would a straight line appear curved? A straight line should appear straight, no matter which angle you look at it from. You are providing nothing but nonsense explanations.

you've been given multiple examples in this very thread.  the edges of the room i'm in are straight lines, but they do not appear to be straight lines.  literally all you have to do to confirm what you're being told is to look around your room.  there are many, many straight lines that do not appear to be straight.

the notion that all straight lines always appear to be straight no matter your vantage point is the only nonsense in this thread.  you're just doing bad geometry.

again, literally all it takes to convince yourself is a piece of string and maybe 20 seconds of your time. 
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2017, 04:05:25 PM
You believe that if there was a large ruler in the sky between the sun and the moon that a straight ruler would appear to curve in the sky.

For what reason would a straight line appear curved? A straight line should appear straight, no matter which angle you look at it from. You are providing nothing but nonsense explanations.

you've been given multiple examples in this very thread.  the edges of the room i'm in are straight lines, but they do not appear to be straight lines.  literally all you have to do to confirm what you're being told is to look around your room.  there are many, many straight lines that do not appear to be straight.

the notion that all straight lines always appear to be straight no matter your vantage point is the only nonsense in this thread.  you're just doing bad geometry.

again, literally all it takes to convince yourself is a piece of string and maybe 20 seconds of your time.

Railroad perspective lines appear as straight lines. The lines down my hallway are straight lines. The corners and edges of my ceiling are straight lines. Nevermind that perspective doesnt really apply to an object which maintains a constant 95 million mile distance, where is all of this curving that perspective supposedly produces?

You are not a child. Think for yourself and come up with some legitimate examples to support your celestial sphere theory. Why does a straight line turn curved in the sky?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on July 15, 2017, 05:42:51 PM
model29, I thought about your experiment a little, and I believe that I could modify what you propose and make it fairly accurate.

1st, you need to know the sun's elevation angle. This can be determined by looking at your own shadow and measuring it... might have to have a friend's help, then use some geometry to calculate the sun's angle (opposite angle to personal height or adjacent angle to shadow length). 2nd you will need a protractor. By setting the sun at the 0 degree reference point, estimate the moon's angle on the protractor. 3rd, use the protractor again, but orient it 90 degrees with the horizon being 0 degrees, and once again estimate the moon's angle.

Now in your hallway, set up a flash light (sun) above your line of sight at the angle calculated above, set up your moon at the angles recorded in 2 and 3 above, be sure to stand in the appropriate spot so flashlight and ball/moon match the recorded information and that your flashlight in the darkened hall is shining at the ball/moon. This should get you the appropriate phase angle viewed by the real moon above.
Depends how exact one wants to be I guess.  Either way, the "lit portion of a ball appearing not to line up with the light source effect" can be easily demonstrated in a room or hallway with straight walls.

Next time the moon and this effect is visible, hold a small ball out at arm's length toward the moon while standing in direct sunlight.  The "phase" of the ball will match that of the moon and also "appear" to not line up with the sun.

Why does a straight line turn curved in the sky?
For the same reason the straight line consisting of the wall meeting the ceiling (or floor) appears curved while looking left or right at it while sitting here at my desk.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2017, 06:26:39 PM
model29, I thought about your experiment a little, and I believe that I could modify what you propose and make it fairly accurate.

1st, you need to know the sun's elevation angle. This can be determined by looking at your own shadow and measuring it... might have to have a friend's help, then use some geometry to calculate the sun's angle (opposite angle to personal height or adjacent angle to shadow length). 2nd you will need a protractor. By setting the sun at the 0 degree reference point, estimate the moon's angle on the protractor. 3rd, use the protractor again, but orient it 90 degrees with the horizon being 0 degrees, and once again estimate the moon's angle.

Now in your hallway, set up a flash light (sun) above your line of sight at the angle calculated above, set up your moon at the angles recorded in 2 and 3 above, be sure to stand in the appropriate spot so flashlight and ball/moon match the recorded information and that your flashlight in the darkened hall is shining at the ball/moon. This should get you the appropriate phase angle viewed by the real moon above.
Depends how exact one wants to be I guess.  Either way, the "lit portion of a ball appearing not to line up with the light source effect" can be easily demonstrated in a room or hallway with straight walls.

Next time the moon and this effect is visible, hold a small ball out at arm's length toward the moon while standing in direct sunlight.  The "phase" of the ball will match that of the moon and also "appear" to not line up with the sun.

Why does a straight line turn curved in the sky?
For the same reason the straight line consisting of the wall meeting the ceiling (or floor) appears curved while looking left or right at it while sitting here at my desk.

Please provide a picture or video of these curved "straight lines" on your ceiling or floor. I believe you may be hallucinating.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on July 15, 2017, 06:53:01 PM

Please provide a picture or video of these curved "straight lines" on your ceiling or floor. I believe you may be hallucinating.
Using the straight line that is the joining of the wall and ceiling, are you stating that while looking away from center to either the left or right, that line does not 'appear' to descend as the distance increases?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2017, 09:10:43 PM

Please provide a picture or video of these curved "straight lines" on your ceiling or floor. I believe you may be hallucinating.
Using the straight line that is the joining of the wall and ceiling, are you stating that while looking away from center to either the left or right, that line does not 'appear' to descend as the distance increases?

You have a video recorder and camera in your pocket. Please take a video or picture of these curved "straight lines". I do not see any straight lines that appear to curve in my home.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on July 15, 2017, 10:07:20 PM
You have a video recorder and camera in your pocket.
Not really. 

Quote
Please take a video or picture of these curved "straight lines".
Why should I go to the effort when we all know full well you won't understand what is shown?

Quote
I do not see any straight lines that appear to curve in my home.
So is that a yes or no to my prior question?
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on July 15, 2017, 11:03:12 PM
instead of asking for others to perform experiments, you could perform a simple one yourself and not have to take anyone's word for it:  just make a straight line with a taut length of string.  then, set that line perpendicular to the moon's phase.  then, see where that straight line path leads.  be careful to wear eye protection because it absolutely is gonna point at the sun.

this whole thread is based on a premise that isn't true, and it would cost you virtually nothing in terms of money or time to see that for yourself.  and yet for some reason you simply refuse.  idgi no one's asking you to fund a trip to the ice wall, just hold some twine in front of you for like 10 seconds.

The corners and edges of my ceiling are straight lines.

stand in front of the midpoint of a wall in your room.  look directly in front of you at the top edge of your room, the straight line formed by the intersection of the wall and the ceiling.  notice that this bit of edge directly in front of you has no slope.  it looks like a horizontal line.

now turn your head to the right and look at the corner of the room.  notice that this line appears to point up from the corner and to the left.  it appears to have a negative slope.

now turn your head to the left corner and notice that the line appears to point up from the corner and to the right.  it has a positive slope.

since the slope of this line appears to change from one end of the room to the other, then by definition it does not appear to be a straight line.  ipso facto ergo sum ad infinitium (that's latin for "i proved it my dude").
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2017, 11:19:25 PM
You have a video recorder and camera in your pocket.
Not really. 

Quote
Please take a video or picture of these curved "straight lines".
Why should I go to the effort when we all know full well you won't understand what is shown?

Quote
I do not see any straight lines that appear to curve in my home.
So is that a yes or no to my prior question?

If you are unable to show us, or even give a coherent explanation for why straight lines would appear as curved in euclidean space, then I am going to have to ask you to stop posting and wasting everyone's time.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 15, 2017, 11:26:27 PM
stand in front of the midpoint of a wall in your room.  look directly in front of you at the top edge of your room, the straight line formed by the intersection of the wall and the ceiling.  notice that this bit of edge directly in front of you has no slope.  it looks like a horizontal line.

now turn your head to the right and look at the corner of the room.  notice that this line appears to point up from the corner and to the left.  it appears to have a negative slope.

now turn your head to the left corner and notice that the line appears to point up from the corner and to the right.  it has a positive slope.

since the slope of this line appears to change from one end of the room to the other, then by definition it does not appear to be a straight line.  ipso facto ergo sum ad infinitium (that's latin for "i proved it my dude").

There is no curve in any of that. At what point do the straight lines curve in any straight line perspective scene? If we compare any part of that scene with a ruler, the corner is straight. It is only the orientation of the line in relation to us which has changed. The line never curves at all!

Based on these ridiculous explanations it is fairly clear that this "celestial sphere" cannot be defended at all.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on July 15, 2017, 11:54:50 PM
If we compare any part of that scene with a ruler, the corner is straight. It is only the orientation of the line in relation to us which has changed. The line never curves at all!

hey, welcome to the point.  straight lines do not always appear straight.  and it only took you 13 pages!

let me know if you ever get around to trying the string experiment.  you'll see for yourself that the straight line path perpendicular to the moon's phase points directly at the sun.  the entire premise of this thread is just plain false.

Based on these ridiculous explanations it is fairly clear that this "celestial sphere" cannot be defended at all.

it's actually just basic geometry.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2017, 12:10:39 AM
it's actually just basic geometry.

This perspective tangent doesn't even make sense. How could the sun rise and set to perspective as it travels across the sky in the Round Earth model if the sun is 92 million miles away at all times. In order for an airplane above you to descend into the vanishing point it must increase its distance from you.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on July 16, 2017, 12:11:58 AM
string.  ten seconds of your time.  you'll see literally immediately that you've been super wrong this whole time.

This perspective tangent doesn't even make sense. How could the sun rise and set to perspective as it travels across the sky in the Round Earth model if the sun is 92 million miles away at all times. In order for an airplane above you to descend into the vanishing point it must get increasingly further away from you.

i'm not sure what you're asking.  in the re model the earth is rotating, so the setting sun is just the sun being obscured by the earth itself.  the sunset has nothing to do with perspective in re cosmology.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2017, 12:18:41 AM
In order for an airplane to fly away and descend into the vanishing point to perspective it must increase its distance to you many times fold. That cannot happen with the sun in the Round Earth model. The sun is 92 million miles away at all times. In order to cause it to "descend" with perspective it must also increase its distance to you by many times fold.

This is why such perspective effects are impossible in the Round Earth model. The sun is not changing its distance by any significant amount to cause them.

The hallway effect is not really valid. The sun does not increase or decrease its height due to perspective over the course of the day under the Round Earth model, so "perspective" as an explanation for the celestial sphere is bunk.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on July 16, 2017, 12:26:30 AM
In order for an airplane to descend into the vanishing point it must increase its distance to you many times fold. That cannot happen with the sun in the Round Earth model. The sun is 92 million miles away at all times. In order to cause it to "descend" with perspective it must also increase its distance to you by many times fold.

This is why perspective effects are impossible in the Round Earth model. The sun is not changing its distance by any significant amount to cause them.

but it doesn't descend because of perspective.  perspective has nothing to do with re sunsets.  isn't that the fe model? 

i feel like i must not be getting what you're asking.  in re cosmology, the sun is fixed, and the earth is rotating.  the sun "sets" because of that rotation.

The hallway effect is not really valid. The sun does not increase or decrease its height due to perspective over the course of the day under the Round Earth model, so "perspective" as an explanation for the celestial sphere is bunk.

that's a great hypothesis.  one way to test this hypothesis would be to use a string to make a straight line and set that line perpendicular to the moon's phase.  follow that straight line and you'll see that it always points directly at the sun (again: eye protection).

and, as you already know, direct experiment is superior to theorizing, thought experiments, and drawings.  it's best to test these things directly.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2017, 12:28:12 AM
In order for an airplane to descend into the vanishing point it must increase its distance to you many times fold. That cannot happen with the sun in the Round Earth model. The sun is 92 million miles away at all times. In order to cause it to "descend" with perspective it must also increase its distance to you by many times fold.

This is why perspective effects are impossible in the Round Earth model. The sun is not changing its distance by any significant amount to cause them.

but it doesn't descend because of perspective.  perspective has nothing to do with re sunsets.  isn't that the fe model? 

i feel like i must not be getting what you're asking.  in re cosmology, the sun is fixed, and the earth is rotating.  the sun "sets" because of that rotation.

You brought up the 2 point perspective of the corners of your ceiling, such as when standing in the middle of a long hallway, like it meant something in relation to what is happening to the celestial bodies for the celestial sphere effect.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on July 16, 2017, 12:31:37 AM
In order for an airplane to descend into the vanishing point it must increase its distance to you many times fold. That cannot happen with the sun in the Round Earth model. The sun is 92 million miles away at all times. In order to cause it to "descend" with perspective it must also increase its distance to you by many times fold.

This is why perspective effects are impossible in the Round Earth model. The sun is not changing its distance by any significant amount to cause them.

but it doesn't descend because of perspective.  perspective has nothing to do with re sunsets.  isn't that the fe model? 

i feel like i must not be getting what you're asking.  in re cosmology, the sun is fixed, and the earth is rotating.  the sun "sets" because of that rotation.

You brought up the 2 point perspective of the corners of your ceiling like it meant something in relation to what is happening to the celestial bodies for the celestial sphere effect.

i brought up the ceiling wall thing as a simple demonstration that straight lines do not always appear straight to us.

i dunno what sunsets have to do with anything.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 16, 2017, 12:37:21 AM
In order for an airplane to descend into the vanishing point it must increase its distance to you many times fold. That cannot happen with the sun in the Round Earth model. The sun is 92 million miles away at all times. In order to cause it to "descend" with perspective it must also increase its distance to you by many times fold.

This is why perspective effects are impossible in the Round Earth model. The sun is not changing its distance by any significant amount to cause them.

but it doesn't descend because of perspective.  perspective has nothing to do with re sunsets.  isn't that the fe model? 

i feel like i must not be getting what you're asking.  in re cosmology, the sun is fixed, and the earth is rotating.  the sun "sets" because of that rotation.

You brought up the 2 point perspective of the corners of your ceiling like it meant something in relation to what is happening to the celestial bodies for the celestial sphere effect.

i brought up the ceiling wall thing as a simple demonstration that straight lines do not always appear straight to us.

i dunno what sunsets have to do with anything.

I've asked for an example of where straight lines appear to make a curve like an arc, and for an explanation for the supposed celestial sphere effect. Fail on two counts.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on July 16, 2017, 12:52:51 AM
If you are unable to show us
I am able to.  What would be acceptable for you if I did post pictures?  A single wide angle shot of a straight overhead line with the camera centered on the horizon?  Perhaps a series of pictures put together from left to right taken with the camera level for each shot?

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, or even give a coherent explanation for why straight lines would appear as curved in euclidean space,
That's been given multiple times over the last 13 pages.

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then I am going to have to ask you to stop posting and wasting everyone's time.
Can you answer the following question with a yes or no answer, or not?  If you can't answer, perhaps you could simply indicate as such, and stop wasting everyone's time.

Using the straight line that is the joining of the wall and ceiling, are you stating that while looking away from center to either the left or right, that line does not 'appear' to descend as the distance increases?

 
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: model 29 on July 16, 2017, 12:55:57 AM
How could the sun rise and set to perspective as it travels across the sky ........
That is the FE model you're describing, and we often ask the same question.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: garygreen on July 16, 2017, 12:58:24 AM
I've asked for an example of where straight lines appear to make a curve like an arc, and for an explanation for the supposed celestial sphere effect. Fail on two counts.

the ceiling example is exactly on point.

http://www.scottmcdaniel.net/drawing/perspective/5_point.html

(http://www.scottmcdaniel.net/drawing/perspective/5_wall.jpg)
(http://www.scottmcdaniel.net/drawing/perspective/5_left.jpg)
(http://www.scottmcdaniel.net/drawing/perspective/5_right.jpg)
(http://www.scottmcdaniel.net/drawing/perspective/5_corner.jpg)
(http://www.scottmcdaniel.net/drawing/perspective/5_curvi.jpg)

but instead of arguing over drawings and theories, why not do an empirical experiment and test to see if your premise is even true to begin with?  i recommend using a taut string to make a straight line, then setting this straight line perpendicular to the moon's phase.  follow the line and see where it points!  be sure to wear eye protection because spoiler alert it points at the sun.

hey btw tell me more about how astronomers don't do experiments.
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: neutrino on July 16, 2017, 07:01:28 AM
Bishop, you aren't serious about that, right? Ever heard of a spherical sky map? The straight lines just don't work.

Woof, you guys need to study a bit of math really. You draw conclusions like a 1-grade boy. Do you have B.Sc degree in anything technical?

Fictitious premise. The sky is not a sphere which things rest against.
I don't believe you don't understand it.

The sky IS A SPHERE. You have to apply a projection onto a sphere (inner face) when you want to do any sky geometry. It's quite funny you guys believe in a dome, but when it really comes to a dome-shaped sky map you unable to understand it. I see there are a plenty of images people here gave you to illustrate it.

Have you ever saw a sky map? I work with sky maps a lot as I'm an astronomer. Here is how it looks like:

(http://server3.sky-map.org/images/sky-map-grid-const.gif)
Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: ErnestV1 on July 16, 2017, 10:44:46 AM
Isn't one of FE tenets that the heavens are a dome?

Nope. I welcome you to try and find something about a dome in Earth Not a Globe or any of the other Flat Earth literature sources.

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No matter, for all of us, FE or Spherical, the sky appears to be a semi-sphere.

The sky is not a sphere. How would things curve against it if it were not a literal sphere? Straight lines would be straight, unless they were resting against something curved.

Now that I comprehend that there are different beliefs and that you do not believe in a dome, I will not use that again with you, but I have seen FE believers say it is so, and have seen one analogy of a bowl with reflections to describe how both the north and south pole rotations can 'work'... but it made thing no clearer to me.  That said, please allow me to try a different tack to the same attempt at communication. Have you ever gone to a planetarium? If so, you have seen that the sky is represented as a dome. That does not mean that we believe that the stars are on the same plane, but it is a great way to visually and accurately represent what is happening in the heavens.

So the sky is not a dome, but even as perspective on a two-dimensional piece of paper can accurately represent how our eyes see the world, so does a planetarium's dome accurately represent how our eyes see the stars and their motion as they appear to traverse the heavens.

Perspective of straight lines on a dome will look straight at one spot in the domed room but curved at another spot in the room. This, as I have previously stated, is due to perspective. Yet even to the person who sees the line as straight, the line drawn on the dome is in fact a curve. Only a string from one point on the dome to another point on the dome will prove what is the true straight vector from point a to point b. Thus, if point a is a radiant source such as the sun, perspective will obfuscate the true phase angle of a large body (point b, or the moon) reflecting the radiant energy from point a (our sun).

Video or pictures taken will reflect that poor perspective is the camera is not held to the proper orientation, or 2 dimensional plane of the camera's horizon. For instance, if the camera is held at a 45 degree angle to the earth's horizon, the camera reflects the horizon as sloping the opposite direction than the camera is being held. Also, if a close object such as wall-ceiling interface with straight lines is above or below the camera horizon, even though the camera is oriented to the straight, horizontal line, there will be an apparent curve at the foreground to that horizontal line as these lines move away to the right and left toward the convergence point of perspective. A similar horizontal line that is centered on the camera's horizontal plane with have no slope to the right and left. Some have called this lens distortion when what it truly shows is perspective. Lens distortion will simply magnify this effect based upon whether it is a wide angle, or has some magnification.

Therefore, straight lines will appear curved whether on the ground or in the sky based upon our vision being oriented to a different plane of reference than the one which is being observed. In order to correct for perspective in a camera or with regard to our own vision. we must put our camera's horizon which starts at center point on the left and is a straight line to center point on the right side of the field of view. If the camera is oriented with the moon at center point on the left or right with the phase angle exactly 90 degrees to the horizon of the camera, then when we find the sun at the opposite side of the field of view it will also be centered between the top and bottom of the camera viewfinder. Now by keeping the sun and moon both on the right and left, but moving the camera up or down in relation to this plane described by the sun and moon, you will see the phase angle of the moon begin to shift due to perspective as the two heavenly bodies begin to rise above or below the center-line of the camera's viewfinder as the plane that the sun and moon are on rises above or falls below the observed plane, even as the line of the wall/ceiling interface 'curves' when the field of view is below the plane of the ceiling.

Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: 3DGeek on July 17, 2017, 03:07:35 PM
I came across a youtube video which asks some interesting questions about the angles of the sun and moon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blrDd7aCDnM&feature=youtu.be

That's hilarious - the guy kinda guesses the angle of the moon's illumination - then waves his finger across the sky in very roughly the right direction - and then winds up reasonably close to where the sun actually is!

Besides - in FET the sun (because you claim it casts a CONE of light, downwards, onto the Earth) and is at the same altitude as the moon, (both 3000 miles above the Earth) can't be illuminating the moon at all...so god knows how you arrive at moon phases...the Wiki says the sun shines on it - but the Wiki also says that sunlight is confined to a beam shining downwards - how the heck it illuminates something so far off to the side.




Title: Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
Post by: Smokified on July 18, 2017, 12:44:18 AM
That doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't the angles line up? They would line up in a small scale model of the sun and moon and observer, so why not a larger scale model with the sun 93 million miles away?
Fair enough, then prove that they would line up in a small scale model then. And remember that considering a standard issue office globus, the distance to the moon object is about 10 meters.

Nobody needs to "defend" the heliocentric model any further than the reply you actually got already. You disregard the reply because it doesn't conform to your wishful thinking. If you want to be taken serious, Tom, you need to start presenting some actual evidence. Just like us "round earthers", even the flat earth movement must be sick and tired of you making them look like blatant idiots by now.

The reply I got merely said that they shouldn't expect to be lined up because the sun is 93 million miles away. ??? ???

We are going to need a better explanation than that.

And while you're at it, Tom, please respond to the 3 videos I linked you in the Shaq thread. I know you saw them, and I know you can't refute them. If you can't, just say it. Don't go silent.

You want me to go off-topic in this thread by talking about an off-topic post you made in another thread? I don't think so. Your videos were ignored in the Shaq thread for a reason. Please stay on topic.

Just as you like to refer people to your silly flat earth bible, I will refer you to the millions of different publications that are easy to locate and explain all of those things for you.